Cool, but if I may:

There is a painting that exists, done by a Zen Buddhist Monk that took a vow of silence. Looking at the painting, all you see is a man's face and his knarled fist. Crudely, written under his fist are the words, "The Hand That Strikes The Master."
The man's face is wrought...brow-heavy and dark.
Until you hear of the account behind it.

He was one day meditating with the "Abbot" and for one brief moment of satori he 'understood' - in that moment of ecstacy he opened his eyes wide, with a huge smile, made a noise (I'm guessing to the order of "Aha!/Eureka!")made a fist and hit his Zen Guide. Kinda like the way one today would do when saying, "I luv ya, Ya big lug!"

Immediately, he stopped, stared at his fist and was sad- he'd broken his vow of silence and disturbed the Wa of the Abbot.
He did a painting about it and named it, "The Hand That Strikes The Master."
To look at the painting again after knowing this, more often than not alters the probability that what you'd initially think was anger on his face was contemplation, sorrow and grief all in one.

I'd bet anyone who views it, NEVER views the painting the same way once they know the IN and OUT of why the painting was done. But sometimes, we don't get to know the IN and OUT. We have trust sometimes, even when not knowing the whole story, that "The Hand That Strikes" does not always do so in malevolence.

Actually, my wife had been a vegitarian for about 6 yrs. until three to four months ago. So she's always been pretty careful as to what she ate.
This is good!

Also, I deliberately left out this teeny bit of information. My wife, unbeknownst to her mother and I, has a slight variation in anatomy, her hepatic portal artery slings over and forks on her gallbladder, (according to Dr. Harris) instead of going around the liver as it's supposed to. Who's responsible for my wife's anatomy?
If a God was responsible why such errors? The answer that it is sin, is to me a weak answer. Your wife's affliction, as painful as it was, is minor compared to the amount of suffering that is in the world. That suffering far out weights any original sin. And, had not man found a way to fix, at least some of the sufferings, your wife might have joined the legions of those who have died from something that is, in the scale of world events, minor - "things" that God seems unwilling or unable to "cure."

There you go. Apparent. Remember the man at the Pool of Siloam? Nature MUST run its course. You must run yours. Delroy his. Spirits MUST run their course. If the truth is clear, what is the meaning of meditation? The truth is clear. Always. We meditate because WE are not clear, always.
True, in part. One does not meditate to become clear. One does not meditate for anything. One meditates! It is then that things become clear - but one cannot try to grasp it.
If nature must run its course then perhaps the course nature was following was to kill your wife, or at least to make her very uncomfortable! Wisely, you intervened in that process.

You don't know that, neither do I...but we both believe it-that is our faith. And no matter what you believe there are always steps that connect faith to fact, it's just a matter of traversing said steps. Remember the man at the Pool of Siloam.
What I know of YAHWEH is this, He is not an egotistical, charlatan, trickster.
The things we understand are that which we are meant to understand. If we don't understand them, we are simply not meant to.
Yet, we can try and in trying we sometimes succeed. I don't believe that there are things we are not meant to know, However, I can see where that might be believed in Christian doctrine.

Death viewed with "Buddha-vision" is different from Death viewed by someone who has panic attacks and vice versa.
This is true. For a Buddhist there is no fear, ideally!

Rather, a Buddhist intent on viewing death through anything other chakra than their third eye will not fully understand it, granted viewing it through other chakras can produce alternate perceptions, you won't get the understanding that you are capable of at any given time of exploration.
Chakras and the Third Eye are more to be found in Hindu philosophy that in Buddhist thought, but they are not unknown to the Buddhist. One has to understand the Kundalini Yoga (dormant energy that Hindus believe lies dormant at the base of the spine until it is called into action, for example, through yoga, to be used in seeking enlightenment) to understand the Chakra system. Buddhists generally just meditate in the presence of death.
Well, gone for yaself, but I'll tell ya, I feel He is responsible for EVERYTHING (notice I didn't say it's His fault), and what we consider loss, pain or death are our considerations because that's what we were given to consider.
There is where we differ, you see them as given, by an outside being, to consider, I just see them as to be considered as they come in the course of life. Some bad things never come. I am reminded of the quotation, "I am a man of many sorrows, most of which never happened."

Once, I remember you gave the laughing Buddha as an example. To merely gaze upon the object what do you see? Now open your third eye, you have considerations of peace and contentment, being able to glimpse perpetual joy within an inanimation state.
Not sure what you are getting at here.

It's supposed to change, I agree with Delroy on this one, what you see, feel, view, perceive, receive, consider, approach with, leave with...all of those things are supposed to change-progress.
It's the reason why no matter what thread we start, it always ends up going in one direction. Some people here are afraid of change.
That is true, we fear change. We cling to things and don't want them to change or go. Buddhists teach the impermanence of all things. Suffering is cause by clinging - no more clinking, no more suffering. Everything comes, everything goes. There is nothing to fear, it is the way of things.

Only through transformation will we ever know that final step from the humane to the divine-it CAN not happen unless we are changed.
Change means we become something else. In Buddhism you become, or awaken, to what you are already! In a way I guess you could call that change.

What alot of people need to ask themselves is: how long will it take me to change? A lifetime, or a twinkling of an eye.
I asked my teacher that and he said,:"when you are ready."

"The Hand That Strikes" does not always do so in malevolence.

True! But when the hand has struck and millions lay dead and dying, one is left with the conclusion that "a," the wielder of the fist was malevolent, or "b," he was extremely unskilled it its use and knew not his own strength. Neither qualities one likes to see in a God - but alas, all to often found among the stories of the God(s). .

If a God was responsible why such errors?
"Errors"? There are a lot of "Christians" who feel "homosexuals" are an error. I prefer to think of it as an anomaly.

And, had not man found a way to fix, at least some of the sufferings, your wife might have joined the legions of those who have died from something that is, in the scale of world events, minor - "things" that God seems unwilling or unable to "cure." "Seems" is again the operative word.


True, in part. One does not meditate to become clear. One does not meditate for anything. One meditates! It is then that things become clear - but one cannot try to grasp it.
Aha, that is the very act of meditation, being open to receive. A Zen Guide (pardon me, I'm allowed to call few "Master") asked that question centuries ago, and the debate still rages on mostly, between two answers. Mine and Yours.
At a stream, one can clutch at water with a closed fist OR be content with letting it run over your open palm. What you are prepared to do with your hand depends on your point of view/raison d'etre.
Are you a clutcher, or as you said "clinger" to the despondancy and futility and all the other inertia you'll feel as negative emotion that is bound to come from attempts at clutching water with a closed fist' or are you 'willing to let go of the NEED to have the water within your grasp and be content with just having it?'

If nature must run its course then perhaps the course nature was following was to kill your wife, or at least to make her very uncomfortable! Wisely, you intervened in that process. Again, we do not know this, but you and I believe it. That is our faith, and there will always be steps traversed to connect faith to fact. A lesson I learned well at age 13 CG...everyone I know will die. My wife will die a thousand times before her death as I have every time I learn something new from people on this site. When I learn something new, I cease to exist as I have previously existed and now have a new lease on life IN THIS REALM with more information to better navigate it. My intervention, however frequent, or well-intended will eventually be for naught and my wife will go on to pass from THIS world.


Yet, we can try and in trying we sometimes succeed. I don't believe that there are things we are not meant to know, However, I can see where that might be believed in Christian doctrine. Fair enough, but Christian and Non-Christian alike have been born. What was life like in the womb CG? And answer me truthfully please.


This is true. For a Buddhist there is no fear, ideally!
"If death is the ultimate, what have I to fear?" When my body expires CG, my brain will stop and I cease to exist as "Omar", but rest assured I WILL be something. And it will not be something to fear.


Chakras and the Third Eye are more to be found in Hindu philosophy that in Buddhist thought, but they are not unknown to the Buddhist. One has to understand the Kundalini Yoga (dormant energy that Hindus believe lies dormant at the base of the spine until it is called into action, for example, through yoga, to be used in seeking enlightenment) to understand the Chakra system. Buddhists generally just meditate in the presence of death. Genreally (and I meant to type it that way), yes, if you're just Buddhist. But I've met Buddhist Judaists, Buddhist Christians, Buddhist Shinto who explored meditation in conjunction with focus and thought applied with results that are for them (to say the least) adequate.

This is what I was referring to about the laughing Buddha, "being able to glimpse perpetual joy within an inanimation state" or to go beyond meditating in the presence of death, by being smack in the middle of it and being able to rejoice by appreciating what you have now and what you will have when the "cup of death" is given.


There is where we differ, you see them as given, by an outside being, to consider, I just see them as to be considered as they come in the course of life. Some bad things never come. I am reminded of the quotation, "I am a man of many sorrows, most of which never happened."
Ah, I see my error then, I am not clear. My God is Life, Love and Truth Incarnate. Where ever these things can be found...within or without, inside, outside or any other dimension that exists -that would be where my considerations come from. Does "Satori" come from within or without? Does Life come from within or without? Love, where does that come from?
Now consider this, where did you say suffering comes from?


Suffering is cause by clinging - no more clinging, no more suffering. Everything comes, everything goes. There is nothing to fear, it is the way of things. Who does the clinging? And though there be nothing to fear, bear in mind YAHWEH has clung too. YAHWEH leads by example. Somethings are meant for me to cling to, so that when I lose them and get something in it's place, I see whether I progress or regress.
I lost my Bahamian shelter, the one I have now is TWICE better because I live in it, and I live in my wife's heart. You CG may understand it, but you won't KNOW it as I do.


Change means we become something else. In Buddhism you become, or awaken, to what you are already! In a way I guess you could call that change. Sic Transit Gloria


I asked my teacher that and he said,:"when you are ready." Ain't that the Truth?

True! But when the hand has struck and millions lay dead and dying, one is left with the conclusion that "a," the wielder of the fist was malevolent, or "b," he was extremely unskilled it its use and knew not his own strength. Neither qualities one likes to see in a God - but alas, all to often found among the stories of the God(s).

Depends on your perception CG, you listed two possible conclusions and then called them "the conclusion." If there can be two possible conclusions, there can be three.

c) Pain is nothing new to occupants of this planet, it is unfair to blame others for my pain/grief if it is a result of (by cause and effect) my "clingingness." Perhaps, the "conclusion" you have come to about death is influenced too much and hence a negative connotation has been ingrained in your consciousness.
Perhaps, we have been taught as humans to treasure that which is limited more so than that which has the capacity to be limitless. Turn on your TV. How many Hallmark commercials tell you to "Don't treasure this season which is gone this year and back the next by buying our stupid cards as opposed to treasuring a life putting food in someone's belly? How many infomercials, would tell you, "You have all the time in the world alotted to you, you don't HAVE to buy our product now." And I ain't saying this one pertain to you, but perhaps you know of a consonant one that does: How many Tupac videos come on MTV telling people, "My name is Tupac, I'm willing to embrace change, celebrate diversity and I very well might have wasted the majority of my life."
Listen to the radio, look at advertisements, listen to how we speak to each other. "Time Constraints" "Don't do that." "Can You Hear me now? Good!"
Are we objective?

Depends on your perception CG, you listed two possible conclusions and then called them "the conclusion." If there can be two possible conclusions, there can be three.
That must have been a typo! I should have put a "s" on the end because there can be three conclusions - even more!

c) Pain is nothing new to occupants of this planet, it is unfair to blame others for my pain/grief if it is a result of (by cause and effect) my "clingingness." Perhaps, the "conclusion" you have come to about death is influenced too much and hence a negative connotation has been ingrained in your consciousness.
I don't think I mentioned my conclusions about death. I was simple stating my conclusions about a God and his actions, or lack of them.

Perhaps, we have been taught as humans to treasure that which is limited more so than that which has the capacity to be limitless.
This it true.

Turn on your TV. How many Hallmark commercials tell you to "Don't treasure this season which is gone this year and back the next by buying our stupid cards as opposed to treasuring a life putting food in someone's belly? How many infomercials, would tell you, "You have all the time in the world alotted to you, you don't HAVE to buy our product now." And I ain't saying this one pertain to you, but perhaps you know of a consonant one that does: How many Tupac videos come on MTV telling people, "My name is Tupac, I'm willing to embrace change, celebrate diversity and I very well might have wasted the majority of my life."
Listen to the radio, look at advertisements, listen to how we speak to each other. "Time Constraints" "Don't do that." "Can You Hear me now? Good!"
Are we objective?
All to often, no.

......Fair enough, but Christian and Non-Christian alike have been born. What was life like in the womb CG? And answer me truthfully please.
I have tried in my posting to stay away from too much Buddhist logic as it can be very confusing to a lay person. However, I think you can handle it.

I have noticed that you have referred to Zen quite often. You must know the nature of a "Koan." I think your question is a Kaon, something that has no answer but is asked to make the student think outside the ways he is comfortable thinking. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" How can you touch the tip of this finger with the same finger?" "How might a man chew his own teeth with his own teeth?" All unanswerable question - unanswerable with the intellect.

..... Does "Satori" come from within or without?
It comes from within but is often opened by things from without - for example, but not exclusively, the writings of the Buddha.

..... Does Life come from within or without?
Both. But it comes. That is what is important.

..... Love, where does that come from?
From within. It is always there but it is to often "locked up" by the ego.

..... Now consider this, where did you say suffering comes from?
Suffering comes with life. Life is suffering. When one takes birth it is there, waiting. When we cling to things, we suffer more - we suffer to "get," and then we suffer in case "it" is taken away (holding on.) Freedom from suffering comes with enlightenment. Where we learn to let go.

..... Who does the clinging?
The ego.

..... And though there be nothing to fear, bear in mind YAHWEH has clung too.
Perhaps he has an ego problem too! A quick reading of the Bible will show that. When the Buddha received enlightenment he was asked to teach it for the betterment of man and the Gods!

..... Somethings are meant for me to cling to, so that when I lose them and get something in it's place, I see whether I progress or regress.
Progress or regress is clinging also. Buddhists might even call that an illusion. We have to follow what Saint Paul said. "I have learned in whatever state to be happy."

I have tried in my posting to stay away from too much Buddhist logic as it can be very confusing to a lay person. However, I think you can handle it.

I have noticed that you have referred to Zen quite often. You must know the nature of a "Koan." I think your question is a Kaon, something that has no answer but is asked to make the student think outside the ways he is comfortable thinking. "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" How can you touch the tip of this finger with the same finger?" "How might a man chew his own teeth with his own teeth?" All unanswerable question - unanswerable with the intellect.
Everything has an answer, even if that answer is "I don't know...yet."


It comes from within but is often opened by things from without - for example, but not exclusively, the writings of the Buddha.
Cool, what is the nature of Satori?


Both. But it comes. That is what is important.
Cool, what is the nature of Life?

Suffering comes with life. Life is suffering. When one takes birth it is there, waiting. When we cling to things, we suffer more - we suffer to "get," and then we suffer in case "it" is taken away (holding on.) Freedom from suffering comes with enlightenment. Where we learn to let go.
Learn to let go of what? ::smiling::


Perhaps he has an ego problem too! A quick reading of the Bible will show that. When the Buddha received enlightenment he was asked to teach it for the betterment of man and the Gods!
Perhaps...but whether or not HE has an ego problem can only be confirmed or denied accurately if we know the very nature of YAHWEH, holistically. For if YAHWEH is only doing what is in His nature to do, then it is not a matter of His ego. But a matter concerning our ego and perception being applied to YAHWEH. And you know The Bible has been tampered with, so relying on the Bible to totally convey YAHWEH's nature is like relying on what other people have said and thought- secondhand.

Progress or regress is clinging also. Buddhists might even call that an illusion. We have to follow what Saint Paul said. "I have learned in whatever state to be happy."
Cool, but when we dream at night, the dream itself is a real occurence, it's content, however is not tangible. Can't the same be said of illusion, it's nature is to be part temporal - part ethereal.

"Happiness" is relative. For example, Anal Sex makes Bob happy, even excited... makes me excited too, but not in a way as Bob would be excited. Am I right in denying or deluding myself into believing we are not both excited, because it is for seperate reasons?
I crucify my ego and recognize this truth. Bob's excited, I'm excited. I apply my ego and recognize this truth: we are not excited for the same reasons and yet we are about the same thing.
Hurricanes, like Life, Love, Death, Suffering and Satori are processes, not necessarily conditions. Perhaps, just perhaps it is the VERY nature of YAHWEH to teach those who have ears to hear/willing to listen (through processes and conditions) how to let go, when to let go, why to let go and what to let go of because something BETTER awaits us when we do.

A couple of years ago, "black" people were beaten and lynched. Should we all have been made blue from that point on? Should people then have prayed to avoid this amount of melanin? Because this wouldn't happen if YAHWEH hadn't celebrated diversity, genetic diversity is His responsibility. (Not His fault.)
If we adopt this stance (and we do have the right to) then we have not learned...we have not let go. I put it to you in your own words my friend,

"So, for those Christians who are praying and giving thanks, tell me why?"
"Does Life come from within or without?"
Both. But it comes. That is what is important.
The very same with Praise, Prayer, Gratitude, Satori, Life, Love and Storms...The very same. It comes from within and/or without. But it comes. That is what is important. Try to grasp/cling/clutch it, and your wa is disturbed, let it run over hand/heart/mind and...

Everything has an answer, even if that answer is "I don't know...yet."
True, but that is different from "things we are not meant to know."

Cool, what is the nature of Satori?
Cool, what is the nature of Life?
If by "nature" you mean, the essential qualities or characteristics by which something is recognized - then Satori is individual enlightenment, or a sudden burst of awareness. I am sure we have all experienced something like that.

The nature of life is the animation of a biological being. This being is made up of elements that return to the universe when the life leave. Just what that "animation" is, is open to many explanations. Is it a new soul sent from God? Is it a reincarnated soul? You "pay your money and make your choice" on that one as no one really knows.


Learn to let go of what? ::smiling::
One must learn to let go of everything!

"The Great Way is not difficult
for those not attached to preferences.
When neither love nor hate arises,
all is clear and undisguised.
Separate by the smallest amount, however,
and you are as far from it as heaven is from earth.
If you wish to know the truth,
then hold to no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
is the disease of the mind."
From: The Hsin-hsin Ming:
Verses on the Faith-Mind

Perhaps...but whether or not HE has an ego problem can only be confirmed or denied accurately if we know the very nature of YAHWEH, holistically. For if YAHWEH is only doing what is in His nature to do, then it is not a matter of His ego.
If God has a nature then who created that nature? God should be beyond a nature, beyond anything that we can pin down as a nature.

But a matter concerning our ego and perception being applied to YAHWEH. And you know The Bible has been tampered with, so relying on the Bible to totally convey YAHWEH's nature is like relying on what other people have said and thought- secondhand.
This could indeed be true.



Cool, but when we dream at night, the dream itself is a real occurence, it's content, however is not tangible. Can't the same be said of illusion, it's nature is to be part temporal - part ethereal.
Yes, you would think so. I see it that way as well. However, in traditional Buddhism everything is an illusion. I have trouble accepting that doctrine of the faith.

"Happiness" is relative. For example, Anal Sex makes Bob happy, even excited... makes me excited too, but not in a way as Bob would be excited. Am I right in denying or deluding myself into believing we are not both excited, because it is for seperate reasons?
Yes.
I also agree that happiness is relative. I have a friend who is happy when he is fishing. To me there are fewer, more boring activities!


I crucify my ego and recognize this truth. Bob's excited, I'm excited. I apply my ego and recognize this truth: we are not excited for the same reasons and yet we are about the same thing.
Both are excited by an action but see the action differently.

Hurricanes, like Life, Love, Death, Suffering and Satori are processes, not necessarily conditions.
They could indeed be both.

Perhaps, just perhaps it is the VERY nature of YAHWEH to teach those who have ears to hear/willing to listen (through processes and conditions) how to let go, when to let go, why to let go and what to let go of because something BETTER awaits us when we do..
Perhaps, but what an "expensive" way to do things. It has caused a lot of suffering that an all powerful God, or perhaps another God, might have avoided or found another way to teach the lessons. But maybe his hands are tied! Could it be that he has "rules" to follow as well?

A couple of years ago, "black" people were beaten and lynched. Should we all have been made blue from that point on? Should people then have prayed to avoid this amount of melanin? Because this wouldn't happen if YAHWEH hadn't celebrated diversity, genetic diversity is His responsibility. (Not His fault.) If we adopt this stance (and we do have the right to) then we have not learned...we have not let go. I put it to you in your own words my friend,
Not his fault at all. Nature requires diversity. It is us that cling to our color and call it "good" or "bad." The truth is color is an adaptation to the amount of sun light absorbed by the skin.

The very same with Praise, Prayer, Gratitude, Satori, Life, Love and Storms...The very same. It comes from within and/or without. But it comes. That is what is important. Try to grasp/cling/clutch it, and your wa is disturbed, let it run over hand/heart/mind and...

Right. Allow it to come, and go, without clinging.

Ever heard of a Canadian band called Rush?

Album: Hold Your Fire
Song: Force Ten
Tough times demand tough talk
Demand tough hearts demand tough songs
Demand...

We can rise and fall like empires
Flow in and out like the tide
Be vain and smart, humble and dumb
We can hit and miss like pride
Just like pride

We can circle around like hurricanes
Dance and dream like lovers
Attack the day like birds of prey
Or scavengers under cover

Tough times demand tough talk
Demand tough hearts demand tough songs
Demand...

Look in -- to the eye of the storm
Look out -- for the force without form
Look around -- at the sight and the sound
Look in look out look around...

We can move with savage grace
To the rhythms of the night
Cool and remote like dancing girls
In the heat of the beat and the lights

We can wear the rose of romance
An air of joie de vivre
Too-tender hearts upon our sleeves
Or skin as thick as thieves'
Thick as theives'....

Tough times demand tough talk
Demand tough hearts demand tough songs
Demand...

True, but that is different from "things we are not meant to know." Perhaps. Let's use sex for example. As far as YOU are concerned: Is sex meant to be KNOWN or EXPERIENCED. And which is better? Consider all the things you wish to know and understand...perhaps they are meant to be experienced - not known.



If God has a nature then who created that nature? God should be beyond a nature, beyond anything that we can pin down as a nature.

Polemic.
"Knowing who created that nature"...is that REALLY more relevant to you than understanding that nature?
If it is, you're asking for a world of trouble. I agree about what you say when you said, "God should be beyond a nature, beyond anything that we can pin down as a nature."
Because then, if you can't understand the qualities of nature YAHWEH presents for your mind, heart and spirit to accept now, you may not in any way be ready to understand or know who or what "created YAHWEH." <<Speaking from an objective point of view here. N.B. I believe YAHWEH to be The Source of All There Is.


Perhaps, but what an "expensive" way to do things. It has caused a lot of suffering that an all powerful God, or perhaps another God, might have avoided or found another way to teach the lessons. But maybe his hands are tied! Could it be that he has "rules" to follow as well?

Come now, no more "expensive" than those that practice Walking Zazen Buddhism (who have the power within to help the homeless/those in physical suffering) imagine if they were all to walk out into the public instead of in circles at the local temple here.
No more expensive than those Christians who practice "Rushin'" (and have the power within to rush out into public instead of) in circles at the churches which they practice.
It is difficult to let go of what happens here, it is difficult to let go of what we consider negative and look at it in an objective fashion. They do what they need. It helps them, they in turn help others - granted what is "help" to some is "harm" to others. Storms help some, and hurt others.

Free will is a quality, a nature, if you will of YAHWEH that is afforded to us. We can use that nature to the best of our ability OR question what other people do with theirs. Which does more good to you? According to your answer, that very well may be what you are meant to do in THIS condition during THIS process.

Perhaps. Let's use sex for example. As far as YOU are concerned: Is sex meant to be KNOWN or EXPERIENCED. And which is better? Consider all the things you wish to know and understand...perhaps they are meant to be experienced - not known.
In order for it to be known it must be experienced. In order for it to be experienced it must be known!

Polemic.
"Knowing who created that nature"...is that REALLY more relevant to you than understanding that nature?
Both carry weight.

If it is, you're asking for a world of trouble. I agree about what you say when you said, "God should be beyond a nature, beyond anything that we can pin down as a nature."
Because then, if you can't understand the qualities of nature YAHWEH presents for your mind, heart and spirit to accept now,
Who says I don't understand? Perhaps I understand more than most as I have spent a lifetime studying religions and their connections to gods, most people have a provincial view of God, as told to them by others - a view they dare not question or examine for fear of losing it.

you may not in any way be ready to understand or know who or what "created YAHWEH." <<Speaking from an objective point of view here. N.B. I believe YAHWEH to be The Source of All There Is.
Yehweh started out as being the god of the Hebrews. He was one of a number of regional gods. Every nation, every city, almost every block had its gods. When a nation went to war against another nation it was a battle of the Gods! Time has made the Hebrew God the one and only. If he is the one and only, or if he is a sub-god, we cannot say for sure. But as I read about the angry, blood thirsty, self-centered God of the Old Testament, I find myself hoping that he is not the top God! If he is, he is very much like the other gods he defeated and replaced. Let us hope the mellowing influence of the Christ has made an impression on him. Or perhaps the "face" that he showed to the Hebrews was the face that they needed at the time - a rough hard face for rough hard times.

Come now, no more "expensive" than those that practice Walking Zazen Buddhism (who have the power within to help the homeless/those in physical suffering) imagine if they were all to walk out into the public instead of in circles at the local temple here.
Many do! (Walk out that is.) When I said expensive, I meant in human blood and suffering. Zazen walkers generate no suffering.

No more expensive than those Christians who practice "Rushin'" (and have the power within to rush out into public instead of) in circles at the churches which they practice.
It is difficult to let go of what happens here, it is difficult to let go of what we consider negative and look at it in an objective fashion.
But one should let go of the positive as well as the negative! You cant hold on to either one anyhow!

They do what they need. It helps them, they in turn help others - granted what is "help" to some is "harm" to others. Storms help some, and hurt others.
Free will is a quality, a nature, if you will of YAHWEH that is afforded to us. We can use that nature to the best of our ability OR question what other people do with theirs. Which does more good to you? According to your answer, that very well may be what you are meant to do in THIS condition during THIS process.

Our free will is not a gift from God or a quality of nature. It comes, if one believes the Hebrew/Christian mythology, from the eating of the fruit that God commanded not to be eaten. God did not want us to have free will, we took it!

P.S. I am enjoying our exchange. I hope you are too. We may not solve the worlds problem but it is interesting. :D

Disclaimer: My Crate GX15 Amp decided to give up the ghost this afternoon, so if I am short or any kind of upset comes through in my answers, please bear in mind it is my concern for my amp, that has the majority of my focus.

In order for it to be known it must be experienced. In order for it to be experienced it must be known!
I disagree. But probably that's because I've yet to meet a human born with BOTH or EITHER the knowledge of sexual congress or the experience of sexual congress.

Who says I don't understand? Perhaps I understand more than most as I have spent a lifetime studying religions and their connections to gods, most people have a provincial view of God, as told to them by others - a view they dare not question or examine for fear of losing it.
Perhaps you do understand more than most people, but CG, what is that to you when at certain points in human history "most people" have been mistaken in their understanding - for most pilots KNEW and understood that Earth was flat and that Sun revolved around Earth. And as to, "Who says I don't understand?"
...everything is an illusion. I have trouble accepting that doctrine of the faith.
This led me to infer that you MAY not understand. Why do you have trouble accepting this?
Yehweh started out as being the god of the Hebrews. He was one of a number of regional gods.
This is news to me, according to my findings no one had heard of "YAHWEH" until the era of the man whom the Israelis call "Moses" (pronounced 'MOE ZEEZ' - like 'RAM ZEEZ') a man whom some historians seem to have trouble locating within the annals of Egyptian records and time.
The Vulgate cites YAHWEH as giving Their name to Moses. Before then, the Israelis had no name for YAHWEH other than "The God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac." Furthermore, Abraham (as much as the Israelis like to think he is) was NOT Israeli nor was he Hebrew. Israel began with Israel aka Jacob.

Every nation, every city, almost every block had its gods. When a nation went to war against another nation it was a battle of the Gods! Time has made the Hebrew God the one and only. If he is the one and only, or if he is a sub-god, we cannot say for sure. But as I read about the angry, blood thirsty, self-centered God of the Old Testament, I find myself hoping that he is not the top God! If he is, he is very much like the other gods he defeated and replaced. Let us hope the mellowing influence of the Christ has made an impression on him. Or perhaps the "face" that he showed to the Hebrews was the face that they needed at the time - a rough hard face for rough hard times.
OoH, I'm glad you touched on this CG. Actually, this was going to be the basis for the new thread I've every intention of starting...soon...as soon as I get my amp fixed.

Many do! (Walk out that is.) When I said expensive, I meant in human blood and suffering. Zazen walkers generate no suffering.
I'm sure some do..actually I'm sure most do. But some and most ain't all. YAHWEH helps some people, we could even say YAHWEH helps most. But YAHWEH does not help all...not all want help from the likes of YAHWEH. So can we not agree it is unfair to expect "all" to be helped.

For some, Evil/Suffering prospers when good men do nothing (for them). So in the case of a homeless or less fortunate person who doesn't get help because some Buddhists or Christians are inside as opposed to outside this can be filed under "Illusion."
Also while we consider "Illusion" - for some, Perpetuation is Generation. What do we call our descendants after perpetuation? Don't we call them our "generations?"
And even at that, there was a time when the generations via perpetuation through knowledge (doctrine) bred a student, a disciple, a follower; and the generations via perpetuation through experience (coitus) bred a child.
Now we have scientists who through knowledge can breed children (In Vitro)! So it is only natural that the next step be the 'manipulation' (for lack of a better word) of experience (sexual congress) the likes of which have never been seen.
But one should let go of the positive as well as the negative! You cant hold on to either one anyhow! I agree thats why I started out the statement objectively. "It is difficult to let go of what happens here..."
Our free will is not a gift from God or a quality of nature. It comes, if one believes the Hebrew/Christian mythology, from the eating of the fruit that God commanded not to be eaten. God did not want us to have free will, we took it!
I don't think free will is a quality of nature either, but I do believe it is a gift from YAHWEH, who did not wish for us to have Knowledge of Good and Evil. There is a difference and this is important.
If we go by The Scriptures (Pentateuch)...If we did not have free will then, it would've been as the world was created.
YAHWEH would've said, "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." And it would've happened, just as when He said, "Light." And there was light.
YAHWEH told the Sun and Moon what to do, and they did it - because they have no free will. He told the plants and beasts what to do, and they did it because they have no free will.
He told Edom what to do, and according to The Scriptures, Edom must've told Hawwah. They both ended up eating the fruit, nobody held a gun to their head. So the very notion that the act came to pass in spite of what YAHWEH had said, says what? To me, it says, YAHWEH may not always respect what we do, but YAHWEH respects the right They gave us to do what we do, when we were made in Their image, after Their likeness. And this, according to my belief, is why Day, Night and all creation on earth...those that weren't given free will (animals/celestial bodies), move according to the ordinances...yet remains indifferent to us - spurns and makes life difficult for us - for we who were given the free will, image and likeness of YAHWEH abuse it and treat the ordinances pertaining to us and our environment like ****.
And free will is not just a gift to humanity. Since we (who were made in Their image, after Their likeness) were made a 'little lower than the angels,' this would mean the angels (who are a little higher) have what we have and more.
Lucifer became Satan through his free will, his nature changed from "luciferian" to become the spirit known as The Devil (Mara/Marah).

P.S. I am enjoying our exchange. I hope you are too. We may not solve the world's problem but it is interesting.
LOL, Definitely interesting.

I disagree. But probably that's because I've yet to meet a human born with BOTH or EITHER the knowledge of sexual congress or the experience of sexual congress.
That is why both must, or can be acquired. No one is born with the knowledge of anything!

This led me to infer that you MAY not understand. Why do you have trouble accepting this?
One might understand a belief system or a theory and still not accept it. In Buddhism it is believed that everything is an illusion. Yet when I bump my toe against the table, the table, the toe and the pain seem real - no illusion there. But Buddhist would say that I was to attached to the idea of toe, table and pain. This could be true.


This is news to me, according to my findings no one had heard of "YAHWEH" until the era of the man whom the Israelis call "Moses" (pronounced 'MOE ZEEZ' - like 'RAM ZEEZ') a man whom some historians seem to have trouble locating within the annals of Egyptian records and time.
The Vulgate cites YAHWEH as giving Their name to Moses. Before then, the Israelis had no name for YAHWEH other than "The God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac." Furthermore, Abraham (as much as the Israelis like to think he is) was NOT Israeli nor was he Hebrew. Israel began with Israel aka Jacob.
If one assumes that Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, and Moses were real and their lives fell into line with what is written in the Bible then you could be right. But the evidence for this is a bit thin, but putting all of that aside, Yahweh was the God of the Hebrews. When they named him is lost to history.

I don't think free will is a quality of nature either, but I do believe it is a gift from YAHWEH, who did not wish for us to have Knowledge of Good and Evil. There is a difference and this is important.
If we go by The Scriptures (Pentateuch)...If we did not have free will then, it would've been as the world was created.
YAHWEH would've said, "Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." And it would've happened, just as when He said, "Light." And there was light.
YAHWEH told the Sun and Moon what to do, and they did it - because they have no free will. He told the plants and beasts what to do, and they did it because they have no free will.
He told Edom what to do, and according to The Scriptures, Edom must've told Hawwah. They both ended up eating the fruit, nobody held a gun to their head. So the very notion that the act came to pass in spite of what YAHWEH had said, says what? To me, it says, YAHWEH may not always respect what we do, but YAHWEH respects the right They gave us to do what we do, when we were made in Their image, after Their likeness. And this, according to my belief, is why Day, Night and all creation on earth...those that weren't given free will (animals/celestial bodies), move according to the ordinances...yet remains indifferent to us - spurns and makes life difficult for us - for we who were given the free will, image and likeness of YAHWEH abuse it and treat the ordinances pertaining to us and our environment like ****.
And free will is not just a gift to humanity. Since we (who were made in Their image, after Their likeness) were made a 'little lower than the angels,' this would mean the angels (who are a little higher) have what we have and more.
Lucifer became Satan through his free will, his nature changed from "luciferian" to become the spirit known as The Devil (Mara/Marah).
Remember the tree they ate from? The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. One can hardly be held accountable for choosing between good and evil if one has no knowledge of either. That is why the snake was there, he did! Adam and Eve had no free will. God did, the Devil did.

Frankly the whole Garden story is doubtful ! God creates a Garden, places the two trees that one must not eat from, right in the middle. He then points out these trees to two people, gives them a warning, then leaves. He leaves even before he checks to see if "evil" is lurking near.

It is quite possible, if you believe the story, that God intended to give us the fruit from both trees, in the fullness of time. But the Devil jumped the gun, but be that as it may. I can't see mankind receiving free will, the ability to choose, without know what to chose from (good or evil.) If Adam and Eve were brought to trial for the eating of the fruit, they would plead "diminished capacity" or in their case, no capacity at all.


P.S. What is a Crate GX15 Amp? Whatever it is I hope it gets better soon. Or replaced!

P.S. What is a Crate GX15 Amp? Whatever it is I hope it gets better soon. Or replaced!

http://www.pulseonline.com/crate/GX15.jpg

That is why both must, or can be acquired. No one is born with the knowledge of anything!
I disagree, but that's just me, the concept of a priori has it's place in my life when I observe animals such as birds knowing how to build nests before they actually experience building nests. When I observe bees evolve as necessary to become a queen, when all bees are born knowing "the waggling dance"- I guess this is one of those concepts we may have to agree to disagree on.


One might understand a belief system or a theory and still not accept it. In Buddhism it is believed that everything is an illusion. Yet when I bump my toe against the table, the table, the toe and the pain seem real - no illusion there. But Buddhist would say that I was to attached to the idea of toe, table and pain. This could be true. So would it be fair to say then, that you adopt/welcome precepts and principles of Buddhism that you can accept for right now; and leave yourself open in states of meditation to receive the ability to accept the precepts and principles you can't accept right now? Is it a matter of CAN NOT accept...or WILL NOT accept?


If one assumes that Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, and Moses were real and their lives fell into line with what is written in the Bible then you could be right. But the evidence for this is a bit thin, but putting all of that aside, Yahweh was the God of the Hebrews. When they named him is lost to history. You don't have to read The Bible, try The Pentateuch (it holds more weight for me.) Again, The Hebrews did not name Them (The Elohim) YAHWEH, that is the name YAHWEH gave to Moses, who in turn gave it to the Hebrews.


Remember the tree they ate from? The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. One can hardly be held accountable for choosing between good and evil if one has no knowledge of either. Yes they can, ever burned your hand as a child? I have - and I learned from it. When someone who cares about you says, "Omar, do not touch that goose iron..." unless you're prepared to face the sequences and consequences...listen. Ignorance is bliss.
That is why the snake was there, he did! Adam and Eve had no free will. God did, the Devil did. Serpent/Dragon. It became a snake after it too faced the consequences of it's actions. BUT the serpent didn't have dominion now did he? Someone/something who doesn't have freewill cannot have dominion over someone or something that does - unless the someone that does have the free will WANTS it to (Phobias). I'll admit YAHWEH are strange, but They don't do things as5-backwards unless it's for a reason.
Again, I'm of a mind to agree to disagree - I believe they had free will, but I also believe they weren't exactly the smartest people in history. You know what they say ignorance is...bliss. And they weren't created a priori either. From what happened to them, I know better.

Frankly the whole Garden story is doubtful ! God creates a Garden, places the two trees that one must not eat from, right in the middle. He then points out these trees to two people, gives them a warning, then leaves. He leaves even before he checks to see if "evil" is lurking near.
"I admit that Darkness has the potential for great evil. But that is not all the Darkness is. The universe is neither good nor evil; rather, both moral extremes exist within it. The same is true of the Darkness. It, too, is a universe, but because it is one of almost limitless power, it's potential is often abused, corrupted. That is the nature of power.
All power is transitory. In its ephermeral nature lies its inifinite malleability, and its potential to warp the spirit of human beings. If you touch it, you will not die. But you will change. In what ways even I cannot say."
Eric Lustbader

Well CG, maybe it is doubtful - that's understandable. For me, it is not, I'll explain why. The Two trees planted in Eden for Edom and Hawwah to eat from were two schools of thought. For all intents and purposes, let's suppose that The Tree of Life is YAHWEH, and all that They are. And the other tree, let's suppose that this is the tree of Alternate States of Consciousness and Perception, sponsored by Lucifer. Pretty much the same role he played in the Vulgate's account of Job.
Let's supposed that the ONLY way he could get Edom and Hawwah to try the fruit of this tree, was to trick them. Let's suppose that with the bliss-blinders on they couldn't see the deception clearly for what it was- bear in mind that they were created a posteri and were never deceived before.
They ate from The Tree of Life and only the Tree of Life, they were welcome to eat from any other tree within Eden or without, except Lucifer's OR they would "die."
Well, you can't have both- either you continue on eating from one tree, or you eat from the other. They were tricked into eating the other tree, and they have not been able to return their consciousness BACK to it's original state. This is why EVEN now it appears that what Lucifer said was true, "You will not die, but you will change." But understand this was taken out of context.
This IS the initial meaning of the word "death" to change. YAHWEH created everything as They would've liked it. Dependant upon Them for sustenance. For that in any way to change would mean what? Death. Lucifer gave them a different definition for "death", "then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." So imagine how Edom and Hawwah must've felt, when they felt themselves falling away from that state of bliss. They were no longer humans operating within the capacity within which they were supposed to...beings exsiting and basking in righteousness and knowing what their purpose was. They were now humans, who were now suddenly aware of the Darkness's propensity for deception and chaos. They were now aware that animals could be destroyed, all the ways the "wand" and "vesica/aureole" could be abused. They, at one point in time were brutally aware of what would happen - There is disorder in Creation because of what we've done. No more Life Incarnate, no more Love Incarnate, in time our bodies will change, our minds will change...all things pertaining to us will change.
All they had ever known was an ORDER that was perfect for them, now, they knew the Chaos that COULD happen. They ceased to exist as they previously had. They changed. They died.
YAHWEH didn't need to "check" for propensity of evil or chaos, it was always there. This is where we were from, earth, sky, sun, moon, stars...And I afford this much to The Freemasons, at the very least they got that right -"Order out of Chaos" was how it began, but what upsets me, is the way they subtely go about bringing "Chaos out of Order."

It is quite possible, if you believe the story, that God intended to give us the fruit from both trees, in the fullness of time.
That may be, but the one thing I hate CG, and my wife'll tell you this, is when someone goes and screws up the order I make to anything. You should see how I clean house! And if my wife gets home or if our cats mess up what order I put to our house... :what:

But the Devil jumped the gun, but be that as it may.
Subtil...just like a cat. Cuddly and sleepy-eyed one moment, then running round the house with "poofy-tail and smashin up erryting!"
I can't see mankind receiving free will, the ability to choose, without know what to chose from (good or evil.) If Adam and Eve were brought to trial for the eating of the fruit, they would plead "diminished capacity" or in their case, no capacity at all. Or they would plead "entrapment" or "guilty" depending on whether they want to blame others or themselves for their mistake. You omitted those options. And this be the problem, the things you cannot see, the things you are not willing to accept, and the things you cannot accept may very well be the things you are not meant to know, accept, experience and understand in THIS life. You have been given free will to be exercised within parameters. You can go right ahead and blame others or yourself for that.
Those parameters include, situations, lifetimes, diverse processes and conditions. Some may argue that, "Then that's not free will, is it?"

But when you spend the night at a married man's house, and he tells you make yourself at home, does that mean he wants you to sex his wife?
Now, you may be in bliss under that man's roof -ignorant and indifferent to the cold and hardship outside, BUT it is YOUR responsibility to KNOW what "Make yourself at home" means, because if you don't and you exercise your free will to sex his wife...you will EXPERIENCE what it means. And if you do that at the house of ANY man I know...you will be taught, and you will "change" and you will have a new "home."