Don't assume what I am trying to do.
Nice try at using other examples of glaring racisms to bolster your argument.
Dude. It is historical fact. But, your words speak loud and clear.
:gi:


Oh, so you do admit that I'm right...
OK

Dude. Everyone with a brain-cell, can see what has happened to Zimbabwe NOW, was wrong moves- even before we talk about the white racist, who up and owned the people's property.

They did the same thing in the Caribbean as well ya know...in fact, they killed every single indian and, nearly killed all the blacks they brought over. Would have suceded with it as well, IF, they did not need slaves for those same farms.

LOL.....

But, more importantly, you need to understand the context and dynamics of what has happened-which I was attempting to do, but you insist on swirling around in the race issue. Maybe it was too much for you to grasp.

You and CG, harp too much on the race issue of the dilema- which serves no one an ounce of good.

Nope. He is wrong now. Wrong for his political ambitions and his cruel intentins, in regards to human rights. But, his actions on the onset was just- taking back black lands, from white racist monopolizers CG.

One of those "white racist monopolizers" has some close ties in Lyford Cay and explained how he and some of his fellow farmers now cannot feed his employees and their families due to the hardship caused in that nation.

Thanks to Mugabe's policies, this "white racist monopolizer" cannot do anything to help the many persons he used to help.

Not EVERY white person is a racist. Many of us blacks instantly go back in history and start quoting instances of colonization and slavery to rile up the emotions of our readers. Then we generalize instead of focusing on our own mistakes and problems which OUR OWN have caused.

We need to stop doing this or we never will move forward. Emotion tends to corrupt the intellect. We need to face the facts, acknowledge what happened, and then make sure that we do everything in our power to fix the problems instead of making them worse.

I wonder how many persons will come into this thread after you and Yard man pickney and only see the "white boogeyman" being at fault.

Man, do we have a rough road to follow if we continue dwelling in the past.

And please don't bring up that statement of "those who don't know their history are bound to repeat it". We need to make up a new statement that "those who dwell in the past, are bound to keep living it out".

NOW, was wrong moves- even before we talk about the white racist, who up and owned the people's property.

Ooh...the white racist boogeyman! We are soooo weak that they are still oppressing us!

(sarcasm)

Negro please. Stop being so weak-minded and supporting such weak-minded concepts

Which you don't grasp and you, as CG, harp too much on the race issue of the dilema- which serves no, not an ounce of good.
I grasp more than you would ever be aware of. I grasp the fact that the majority of the people in this world can sense a racist of any color. And they tend to avoid such people or treat them with contempt.

I grasp the fact that while there are racist persons out there, many of us blacks overlook our own prejudicial behaviors and evoke reactions that could be viewed as racism as others try these best to avoid such negativity.

No wonder we as a people are viewed in many circles of power as a race of complainers and whiners. Get off of your behind and change the system yourself. Show your strength. Stop whining about the past. IT HAPPENED! The shackles were released already. Now stop defending leadership mistakes simply because the person is the same color as you. Persons like yourself epitomize the weakness of our race at times like these, for you cannot see that we are stronger than the shoddy examples of leadership that we display to the world. If one of us makes a tragic and foolhardy mistake, we should be the FIRST to be on the back of that person, instead of making excuses and pointing fingers elsewhere

How long will we lean on the crutch of racism? Some of us do know how to walk without it ya know!

One of those "white racist monopolizers" has some close ties in Lyford Cay and explained how he and some of his fellow farmers now cannot feed his employees and their families due to the hardship caused in that nation.

Thanks to Mugabe's policies, this "white racist monopolizer" cannot do anything to help the many persons he used to help.
To disregard that there was racism in South Africa, is saying that there was no sun in the sky.

We know it was racism and, we know the policy to kick them all out was wrong. Quit repeating yourself. You are not a stupid man.

But, how those racist white farmers, from Europe, came to Africa and took the people's land in the first place was more than wrong- bad manners indeed. It was not pretty Yorick..it was bloody and it was wrong- illegal even. However, Mugabe was just in getting his land back for his generation- just as Ireland and Scotland, was right for getting their land back. However, the way he went about it was wrong and a disaterous ECONOMIC POLICY...regardless of kicking out racist white people, was good for that country.



Not EVERY white person is a racist. Many of us blacks instantly go back in history and start quoting instances of colonization and slavery to rile up the emotions of our readers. Then we generalize instead of focusing on our own mistakes and problems which OUR OWN have caused.

We need to stop doing this or we never will move forward. Emotion tends to corrupt the intellect. We need to face the facts, acknowledge what happened, and then make sure that we do everything in our power to fix the problems instead of making it worse.

I wonder how many persons will come into this thread after you and Yard man pickney and only see the "white boogeyman" being at fault.

Man, do we have a rough road to follow if we continue dwelling in the past.

And please don't bring up that statement of "those who don't know their history are bound to repeat it". We need to make up a new statement that "those who dwell in the past, are bound to keep living it out".

YOU, need to stop harping on race and talk about how it happened- which was detailed quite nicely in my first response to natureboy and CG combined.

Ooh...the white racist boogeyman! We are soooo weak that they are still oppressing us!

(sarcasm)

Negro please. Stop being so weak-minded and supporting such weak-minded concepts
Yorick. There was Aparthied THEN, in South Africa...you do know this. Right?
:gi:



I grasp more than you would ever be aware of. I grasp the fact that the majority of the people in this world can sense a racist of any color. And they tend to avoid such people or treat them with contempt.

I grasp the fact that while there are racist persons out there, many of us blacks overlook our own prejudicial behaviors and evoke reactions that could be viewed as racism as others try these best to avoid such negativity.

No wonder we as a people are viewed in many circles of power as a race of complainers and whiners. Get off of your behind and change the system yourself. Show your strength. Stop whining about the past. IT HAPPENED! The shackles were released already. Now stop defending leadership mistakes simply because the person is the same color as you. Persons like yourself epitomize the weakness of our race at times like these, for you cannot see that we are stronger than the shoddy examples of leadership that we display to the world. If one of us makes a tragic and foolhardy mistake, we should be the FIRST to be on the back of that person, instead of making excuses and pointing fingers elsewhere

How long will we lean on the crutch of racism? Some of us do know how to walk without it ya know!


Horse radish. Talk about how the policy affected, and, what do we learn from it and, the nuance of the crisis.

You keep repeating some reverse racist crap and it sounds stupid.
:tdown:

You need to grasp however, that what happened then, has nothing to do with explaining what is happening now. It may be a part of it, but, it is not the same thing.

Ooh...the white racist boogeyman! We are soooo weak that they are still oppressing us!

(sarcasm)

Negro please. Stop being so weak-minded and supporting such weak-minded concepts


I grasp more than you would ever be aware of. I grasp the fact that the majority of the people in this world can sense a racist of any color. And they tend to avoid such people or treat them with contempt.

I grasp the fact that while there are racist persons out there, many of us blacks overlook our own prejudicial behaviors and evoke reactions that could be viewed as racism as others try these best to avoid such negativity.

No wonder we as a people are viewed in many circles of power as a race of complainers and whiners. Get off of your behind and change the system yourself. Show your strength. Stop whining about the past. IT HAPPENED! The shackles were released already. Now stop defending leadership mistakes simply because the person is the same color as you. Persons like yourself epitomize the weakness of our race at times like these, for you cannot see that we are stronger than the shoddy examples of leadership that we display to the world. If one of us makes a tragic and foolhardy mistake, we should be the FIRST to be on the back of that person, instead of making excuses and pointing fingers elsewhere

How long will we lean on the crutch of racism? Some of us do know how to walk without it ya know!
I think you missing the {point} the fact is that most of our social problems we face today is as a result of our history. It's easy to say stop complaining & move on, i think some other things needs to happen frist before we really & truly can begin to move forward.

Is color the only thing you see?
Oh dear! It seems to be the only thing you think of. I called them "White Farms" because that is what they are called over and over in the press! It distinguishes them from farms own by Black which were not an issue!


Half right. No training was given to them by the private market either. Something in which is right by all accounts of people, whe believe government should stay out of issues as this.

The "private" white farms, should have had in place a training session for the black workers...OH WAIT...they did not because they monopolized it. Silly me.

So, we have again, racism at the root of that one. Also, no one argues the fact that they may have been ill-equiped, or, as you have said "incompetent" to handle the farms. This is exactly what I have told you- in my own way. However, this is where Mugabe went wrong and this is where it went down hill. The government distributed, but, who they distributed it to had no training from their former owners.

Did you really expect the farmers to train other people to take over their land? Mugabe took the land. It was up to him to train, or at least pick the right people to run those lands.

You keep repeating the same thing over and over again CG. Mugabe was wrong and he gave it to incompetent blacks blah blah blah.
Actually, I just said incompetent.

We get it CG. But, what I want you to do is understand it in all of the context it happened in. Go back and re-read the comparison between France and Britain, in contrast to Zimbabwe.
So, two wrongs make a right?

Nope. He is wrong now. Wrong for his political ambitions and his cruel intentins, in regards to human rights. But, his actions on the onset was just- taking back black lands, from white racist monopolizers CG.

What was the fault with his policy, is that he did not factor in the negative affects of his re-distribution policy. Something that at that time, nobody knew would be disasterous policies because no one ever expereinced it until Mugabe made this error.

Mugabe has made history, but, in the wrong way....
Agreed in everything, including his bad land policy!

To disregard that there was racism in South Africa, is saying that there was no sun in the sky.
We know it was racism and, we know the policy to kick them all out was wrong. Quit repeating yourself. You are not a stupid man.
But, how those racist white farmers, from Europe, came to Africa and took the people's land in the first place was more than wrong- bad manners indeed. It was not pretty Yorick..it was bloody and it was wrong- illegal even.
I'm not disregarding racism. The manner in which you try to make your points is so skewed.

You bring in topics that will rile up emotion and then you falsely accuse me of denying that racism ever happened.

Try again. This time stay in the present. It is 2007 and almost 2008, remember.

Let's talk about current events.

But in any event, since we are defending the process of persons taking back their land willy nilly with no sense of economic repercussions, then why don't US and caribbean blacks force the US government to ship us all back to Africa on luxury cruises...thereby reversing our ancestors' unfortunate trip?

Or how about the American Indians just taking over factories and malls that now reside on the land that was taken from their forefathers many years ago?

Civilization exists and we must take care not to make hasty or jaded decisions based upon past events.

However, Mugabe was just in getting his land back for his generation- just as Ireland and Scotland, was right for getting their land back. However, the way he went about it was wrong and a disaterous ECONOMIC POLICY...regardless of kicking out racist white people, was good for that country. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. And he did it the wrong way. A way that will have a devastating ripple effect for generations to come.

Oh yeah, I again have to point out your generalization that every white person that Mugabe kicked out in this RECENT land takeover was a "racist hog" (your words, not mine), which is utterly incorrect and a clear example of prejudicial thinking.

HELL NO, I don't agree with the British Prime Minister. However i am not a supporter of one Gabriel Mugabe. I however want to comment a little on Zimbabwe current crisis.
First before this issue is discussed lets talk of history.
Cecil Rhodes invaded Zimbabwe. Zimbabweans fought against this beastly occupation. The unfortunate leaders of the Zimbabwean defense forces of the 1890s were hanged from treetops. Between 1890 and 1902, white settlers expropriated three-quarters of native land. The British government granted 6,000 acres of native land to each white volunteer, who as a group, proceeded to cordon off the region's best land and cattle. Between 1935 and 1955, the colonial government violently displaced 67,000 African families onto reserves at gunpoint, including 100,000 people forced into reserves in the period following the Second World War. The British also used economic coercion as part of their overall strategy of ethnic cleansing. A hut tax and poll tax forced Africans off their land, and into assuming roles deemed useful by the colonizers, such as domestic servants, and miners. The indigenous population chose to become small peasant farmers whenever possible, but they were crowded into reserves on less-productive land, taxing the eco-system. The subsequent soil erosion was blamed on "poor African farming methods." To "solve" overcrowding on the reservations, the British killed or confiscated more than one million African cattle. At the outset of land reform, population densities were over three times greater in the black than in the white areas, and some 42 per cent of the country was owned by 6,000 white commercial farmers.
The areas appropriated by the British included what became known as the "White Highlands," located in the geographic centre of the country. The Land Acts in 1967 and 1969 solidified the control of 46.9% of Rhodesia's land under the whites, who composed 5% of the population. That was how the British took land and 'ruined Zimbabwe.' On Dec. 21st 1979 the Lancaster House Agreement was signed and in it there was a protocol on land redistribution; Britain would fund the purchase of land from white settlers. The Agreement established a market-based 'willing buyer,' 'willing seller' system of land exchange, in which the government purchased land from farmers who wished to sell it. It was an international effort including some European countries, Kuwait, and the largest contributor, the U.K. The British government agreed to match 'pound for pound' contributions from Zimbabwe's government. In 1992 the British government refused to honor its own promises. The West's opposition to Zimbabwe began in the mid-90s, when the Mugabe government failed to undertake pro-foreign investor economic reforms as quickly as the International Monetary Fund prescribed. The IMF expected Zimbabwe to pare back government social spending, reduce the size of the civil service, devalue its currency, and move strongly toward an export-oriented economy - measures that would benefit international investors but would increase the hardships Zimbabweans already faced. The IMF also insisted that Zimbabwe pay full market value for the land it sought to acquire as part of its program to resettle the rural poor (land that had been stripped from indigenous Africans by European settlers).
You are so RIGHT with this information. while i don't agree with some of the things Mr Robert Mugabe is doing, I know for a fact that the land reform program is one of the many things that needs to happen not only for Zimbabwe but for much of the continent. The British Prime Minister is missing the issues here, what ever he may think of Mr Mugabe, the government has the right to uplift it's people. 2% of the population controling 60% of the land/ wealth of the country. No one could say that's right.

I think you missing the {point} the fact is that most of our social problems we face today is as a result of our history. It's easy to say stop complaining & move on, i think some other things needs to happen frist before we really & truly can begin to move forward.

Yes, it is easy to say stop complaining but even more difficult to stop doing it!

Moving forward is easy. First you stop looking back so frequently over your shoulder (the past), so that you don't stumble on your path (the present). Then you focus your eyes on where you want to go (the future) and properly analyze the path that you need to take to get there. To add to that you make sure that you do not start the trip unless you are properly prepared and you also must be careful of the leaders you choose to follow.

You say that many of our social problems we face today stem from our history, but that's using the past as an excuse for failure. Once we change our thinking and stop using the past as a crutch, then we will see how fast we can run.

We must be careful, for the ideologies of the black rights movement do not apply as strictly in these times as they did in the past. From the days of MLK, Malcolm X and the early years of Nelson Mandela, we have had a lot of changes. Unfortunately there were not many bright "sparks" to document and inspire others of our race during the transition to a freer state. As a result of this, many of us still rely on the memories of slavery and colonialism as the proverbial "shackle" around our legs, although we are "freer" than before.

Just like an adult elephant who was chained to a stake in the ground from when it was a baby, our race now is adult enough and has more than enough power to break free of that staked chain (of thinking), but for some reason we prefer to stay "shackled" because the memory of not being able to break the chain is still so strong.

We are not baby elephants anymore. We can pull the stake up from the ground (shape our future) as we so choose. But with that said, having that power does not give us the excuse to go on a rampage of "revenge".

You are so RIGHT with this information. while i don't agree with some of the things Mr Robert Mugabe is doing, I know for a fact that the land reform program is one of the many things that needs to happen not only for Zimbabwe but for much of the continent. The British Prime Minister is missing the issues here, what ever he may think of Mr Mugabe, the government has the right to uplift it's people. 2% of the population controling 60% of the land/ wealth of the country. No one could say that's right.

A question for you. It has been stated that 2% of the population controls 60% of the land/wealth of the country. What is really an issue for them is 2% of the White population controls 60% of the land/wealth of the country. I dont recall them taking any Black farms and I am sure there are some, maybe not as big, but some.

What if some of the more powerful and wealthy Blacks take over the land in more or less the same ratio. Would that be just as bad? And how can it be avoided?

Oh dear! It seems to be the only thing you think of. I called them "White Farms" because that is what they are called over and over in the press! It distinguishes them from farms own by Black which were not an issue!
Who did he take back the farms from CG?
:gi:



Did you really expect the farmers to train other people to take over their land? Mugabe took the land. It was up to him to train, or at least pick the right people to run those lands.
He couldnt and this was what was off with his planning. However, the people who he kicked out, did not leave behind trained personell in any event, to take over the land for themselves. Why should they train the people they have oppressed? Exactly the issue here.

This is the issue we have in the Bahamas- foreigners come in, and use our system and don't train locals to do the job. This is especially in regards to financial services and top end tourism. Instead, they bring in MORE foreigners, to give the jobs to them. Does that sound right to you, when those same people have been afforded the opportunity to at least get a chance to train.

So, CG, it is more complex than what you make it to be. But, you seem bitter- since Mugabe kicked out some white racists. So, your thing is, since he did it, he should find a way to train the people, who the people he kicked out did not train.

With this thinking, I am glad he kicked them out because, at least they have what is THEIRS, even though they may be dirt poor.
:)



Actually, I just said incompetent.
Well. If Mugabe kicked out the white farmers, who had a monopoly and control over the land, a land that was not theirs and they got by bloodshed, and he put it in hands of the rightful countrymen- black people. Then, who else would you be meaning CG?

Chinses people?


So, two wrongs make a right?
Agreed in everything, including his bad land policy!

Perhaps. But, as I said, his intentions were just- kick out the foreigners, who monopolized the land and resources, from a cruel and racist standpoint. Which it was.

Also, the issue now, especially to South African development, and African development on the whole, has to do with FDI and Trade practices.

I'm not disregarding racism. The manner in which you try to make your points is so skewed.

You bring in topics that will rile up emotion and then you falsely accuse me of denying that racism ever happened.

Try again. This time stay in the present. It is 2007 and almost 2008, remember.

Let's talk about current events.
Was trying to talk about current events, when I mentioned African Development with Trade, especially in regards to the Doha Round and farming. That was just the start. Also, you have to grasp the complexity of what has happened, to understand a part of what the cycle in Zimbabwe is in relation to that now.


But in any event, since we are defending the process of persons taking back their land willy nilly with no sense of economic repercussions, then why don't US and caribbean blacks force the US government to ship us all back to Africa on luxury cruises...thereby reversing our ancestors' unfortunate trip?

Or how about the American Indians just taking over factories and malls that now reside on the land that was taken from their forefathers many years ago?

Civilization exists and we must take care not to make hasty or jaded decisions based upon past events.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things. And he did it the wrong way. A way that will have a devastating ripple effect for generations to come.

Oh yeah, I again have to point out your generalization that every white person that Mugabe kicked out in this RECENT land takeover was a "racist hog" (your words, not mine), which is utterly incorrect and a clear example of prejudicial thinking.


This is garbage Yorick. Total waste of bandwidth. This has nothing to do with the Doha Round and the trade dilema, which impacts Africa- front burner issue. Nothing to do with the comparison of Britain and France, and, the contrast with the emergence of market principles in Zimbabwe- or lack thereof. Nor, does this have to do with any progressive ideals moving forward.

Who did he take back the farms from CG?

Exactly my point. It was White farmers that is why I used the word. You said I only think of race but how can one leave race out of this?

I think we both agree that as noble as his actions might have been, in his mind, they lead to disaster, economically speaking. He did not think it out clearly.

I am not bitter about it. I don't own land there and I don't know anyone who does. I met a guy who lived there once but I cant even remember his name. I have no issue with who owns the land. My issue is that a leader who claims he is making it better for the people is really making it worse. And he is using race to enrich himself.

If people want to own land and do nothing with it, that is their business. Not all land must be put under the plow! But they must live with the consequences - no food. Don't go crying to the international community if you choose not to grow any.:)

He couldnt and this was what was off with his planning. However, the people who he kicked out, did not leave behind trained personell in any event, to take over the land for themselves. Why should they train the people they have oppressed? Exactly the issue here.

This is the issue we have in the Bahamas- foreigners come in, and use our system and don't train locals to do the job. This is especially in regards to financial services and top end tourism. Instead, they bring in MORE foreigners, to give the jobs to them.
Now you're really talking out of somewhere else other than your mouth.

You just insulted every intelligent Bahamian in the financial services and tourism industry who are worth more and DO more than many of their foreign counterparts

But, you seem bitter- since Mugabe kicked out some white racists. So, your thing is, since he did it, he should find a way to train the people, who the people he kicked out did not train.
With this thinking, I am glad he kicked them out because, at least they have what is THEIRS, even though they may be dirt poor.
Again, the white racist generalization.

CG should call you out on that every time you say it. I gave you an example of a white farmer from Zimbabwe who after Mugabe's land takeover being unable to feed his many employees who were relying on him, but yet you label that farmer and his comrades racist, despite them forming deep relationships with Zimbabweans.


Well. If Mugabe kicked out the white farmers, who had a monopoly and control over the land, a land that was not theirs and they got by bloodshed, and he put it in hands of the rightful countrymen- black people. Then, who else would you be meaning CG?
Chinses people?
Perhaps. But, as I said, his intentions were just- kick out the foreigners, who monopolized the land and resources, from a cruel and racist standpoint. Which it was.
Also, the issue now, especially to South African development, and African development on the whole, has to do with FDI and Trade practices.
Again there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. And he did it the wrong way. A way that will have a devastating ripple effect for generations to come.

Although I have to say that all you are doing is showing how prejudiced you are against others by using the past to label all of those white farmers as racist. You would probably be one of the first to be hollering out and complaining if a white person generalized that all of Zimbabweans are not intelligent. Stop generalizing.