Again there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. And he did it the wrong way. A way that will have a devastating ripple effect for generations to come.

Had it been in your power how would you have done land reform? Or is it something that cant be done? I ask Alien the same question.

I'll bet the international community, and the British in particular, are sorry they forced Ian Smith out! Zimbabwe went "from the frying pan into the fire."


WHAT!!!

u mean the Ian Smith that said: : "I don't believe in black majority rule ever, not in a thousand years"???????

Mugabe is a monster of a different kind.....But that does not mean Ian Smith is/or should be missed. What kind of sentiment is that for you to say (and believe)????

Exactly my point. It was White farmers that is why I used the word. You said I only think of race but how can one leave race out of this?
I think we both agree that as noble as his actions might have been, in his mind, they lead to disaster, economically speaking. He did not think it out clearly.
I am not bitter about it. I don't own land there and I don't know anyone who does. I met a guy who lived there once but I cant even remember his name. I have no issue with who owns the land. My issue is that a leader who claims he is making it better for the people is really making it worse. And he is using race to enrich himself.
If people want to own land and do nothing with it, that is their business. Not all land must be put under the plow! But they must live with the consequences - no food. Don't go crying to the international community if you choose not to grow any.:)


CG. He kicked the racist, land owners out. We can't escape from that. However, it has a little to do with the process moving forward for entire development issues.

This is why I said, Mugabe needs to be assasinated. He has not been good to the people- or even tried since the 80s. However, this has little to do with why he kicked out the former colonist in the first place- which they still hold resentment for and, why the white western powers, still holda grudge on many of their former colonies- even though they realize "smart FDI" is critical for their development. IF, we must use their system.

WHAT!!!
u mean the Ian Smith that said: : "I don't believe in black majority rule ever, not in a thousand years"???????
Mugabe is a monster of a different kind.....But that does not mean Ian Smith is/or should be missed. What kind of sentiment is that for you to say (and believe)????

Please read my post 67. To save you the trouble I will re-post. hiphopanonymous asked me, in reply to the same post you quoted
"Sorry CG, I can't let this slide.
The British were forced by international opinion to stop supporting Ian Smith because he was RACIST. He also used militant groups to segregate the country and forced black people to work for the whites.
Did you support Ian Smith (he dead now)? Did you agree with his goals and methods?"

My reply to him was:
"Not at all. That is why I said Zimbabwe went from the "frying pan into the fire." Smith kept the people fed but he did not play fair with Blacks. He should have tried to bring Blacks into the system, not keep them out. Had he done that things would have been different and the World would not have turned against him - as they are doing now to Mugabe."

This has nothing to do with the Doha Round and the trade dilema, which impacts Africa- front burner issue. Nothing to do with the comparison of Britain and France, and, the contrast with the emergence of market principles in Zimbabwe- or lack thereof. Nor, does this have to do with any progressive ideals moving forward.

Yes, it does.

It does when we have our leaders messing up on such a level that they take their countries backwards instead of forward.

Developing countries need to start get our act together now. As I said before, we cannot afford to make mistakes due to rash judgments and persons wasting their time trying to balance out past injustices.

If a leader cannot make rational decisions which will empower his country instead of weakening it, then that person should be replaced. Again, we cannot make mistakes in our bid to get into the top global seats of power. We need global geniuses at the helm of our nations, not persons hell-bent on getting racial revenge at their nation's economic expense.

The Doha Round is just one of many instances of why we need to get our leaders at the table of global power. We need to put past instances of weakness behind us and show that our nations and our leaders can compete with the top in the world. We need to get respect for the decisions we make, not invoke ire.

While we are wasting time talking about slavery and colonialism, First world countries are talking about how to better their countries and making deals to ensure that they retain their first world status. We need leaders who think on that level! The way that you guys blindly are defending Mugabe's decision it is no wonder the lesson is taking so long to be learned.

If you guys could put the race thing aside for a second and think globally, make you would GET it!

CG. He kicked the racist, land owners out. We can't escape from that......
He kicked out White people. I am sure that many were racist amoung them but to call them all racist is a bit to broad. Land was what he wanted not racial equality.

I am sure that to racist Black people all Whites are racist! But that is wrong. I am sure to racists Whites, all Black people are lazy and dishonest. That is not right either. Be careful of the broad brush strokes!:)

Please read my post 67. To save you the trouble I will re-post. hiphopanonymous asked me, in reply to the same post you quoted
"Sorry CG, I can't let this slide.
The British were forced by international opinion to stop supporting Ian Smith because he was RACIST. He also used militant groups to segregate the country and forced black people to work for the whites.
Did you support Ian Smith (he dead now)? Did you agree with his goals and methods?"
My reply to him was:
"Not at all. That is why I said Zimbabwe went from the "frying pan into the fire." Smith kept the people fed but he did not play fair with Blacks. He should have tried to bring Blacks into the system, not keep them out. Had he done that things would have been different and the World would not have turned against him - as they are doing now to Mugabe."


I appreciate the repost (i had not yet reached that far).

But ....it still leaves much to be desired....from the perspective of your average black man. Smith had to go. He was a racist that was beyond redemption. Why should the blacks have been allowed or forced to work with him. If he wanted to do things differently they should have been done that way from the get go....not implemented by him in an attempt to prolong white rule, save his political party and minimize the "effects" of black self government.

Mugabe is a mess. So was Smith.

If you guys could put the race thing aside for a second and think globally, make you would GET it!



The global predicament of black people has everything to do with race and colonialism. Lets start with acknowledging that and implementing programs to help right some of these wrongs. Im not speaking about reparations per se..... but even the programs like affirmative action and minority business loans and set asides... and other such attempts to level the playing field are constantly criticized as unfair (to white people) and no longer needed. This is because people have short memories and they forget and or choose to ignore the reasons these programs are necessary.

Thats why its important to remember and to remind people of the reality we live.

Had it been in your power how would you have done land reform? Or is it something that cant be done? I ask Alien the same question.

If I was Mugabe, I would have done my research extensively on this issue, finding out exactly what was the level of production on each farm and who held stake in those ventures.

Then I would have found out whether Zimbabwe had the skilled labour available to run more farms of that size and if not, I would have brought in investors/skilled labour from nearby countries to start such ventures as state-run competition. The clauses would have had strict guidelines as to the training of locals and the leasing (not selling) of the land that the farms were on.

I would have tripled Zimbabwe's food output before approaching the white farm owners as a collective group and negotiating the conditions by which their farms would continue to be a part of Zimbabwe's economy. One condition of the agreement would have been the creation of a coalition, which as part of the gradual reclaiming of their land, would give members first priority and significantly reduced land prices when setting up operations like theirs in neighboring countries. So while they gradually would lose ownership of their land in Zimbabwe, they would have the opportunity to gain farmland and opportunities in other nearby nations. At the same time, those neighboring nations would benefit from the expertise and equipment that these farmers would bring.

And that's just where I would start. Mugabe had the opportunity to make Zimbabwe a regional food provider, but instead of using the resources and global connections that the white farmers had, he decided to "run them outta town" in a faux display of black bravado.

We need intellectually aggressive, forward thinking and globally-minded leaders in control of these nations in Africa. Or at least leaders who surround themselves with such people.

The global predicament of black people has everything to do with race and colonialism. Lets start with acknowledging that and implementing programs to help right some of these wrongs. Im not speaking about reparations per se..... but even the programs like affirmative action and minority business loans and set asides... and other such attempts to level the playing field are constantly criticized as unfair (to white people) and no longer needed. This is because people have short memories and they forget and or choose to ignore the reasons these programs are necessary.

Thats why its important to remember and to remind people of the reality we live.

We acknowledged the wrongs a while ago. And short memories have nothing to do with the fact that this is not the 1960's anymore.

It is time to overcome the wrongs by doing what is necessary within ourselves so that we do not need a "hand-up" or a handout.

This world is based upon competition. To prove oneself as the best, one must plan and act accordingly. Look at yourself and your success. Did you get there because of a handout? Or do you consider it luck?

Do you believe that what you have accomplished also can be accomplished by others of our kind with hard work, dedication and a bit of personal sacrifice?

If so, then why does the playing field need to be tilted in our favor, when it has been proven that we can compete EQUALLY on the top levels of any field when we do what is necessary to?

We acknowledged the wrongs a while ago. And short memories have nothing to do with the fact that this is not the 1960's anymore.
It is time to overcome the wrongs by doing what is necessary within ourselves so that we do not need a "hand-up" or a handout.
This world is based upon competition. To prove oneself as the best, one must plan and act accordingly. Look at yourself and your success. Did you get there because of a handout? Or do you consider it luck?
Do you believe that what you have accomplished also can be accomplished by others of our kind with hard work, dedication and a bit of personal sacrifice?
If so, then why does the playing field need to be tilted in our favor, when it has been proven that we can compete on the top levels of any field when we do what is necessary to?


Wise words....

But i know from very personal experience that luck and personal circumstances (with a lot of hard work and dedication) led to my success when many of my peers failed.

I can think of many many classmates.....many of them much smarter than I...who were left behind to work menial jobs and struggle check to check because of a system that is set up to benefit a few at the expense of many.

Sure some of us made it. But look how many of us didnt. And look to see why they didnt. Money, tuition, having to work, single mother households, lack of opportunity, prison, hopelessness. Its not a stretch or even difficult for me to see that the 1960's aint all that long ago.

The US is different from the Bahamas ....but here i sit in DC in the nations capital employed be a relatively liberal organization.

I am the only black professional man on staff. We have five black professional women on staff. Thats it. All of us come from similar backgrounds.....sons and daughters of doctors and lawyers....the whole truth that affirmative action tends to benefit those of us with the most means...etc..etc.. All true. Its not at all difficult to see how the accumulation of wealth and the ability to educate our youth is very much attached to our very recent history.

You may think 1960's, segregation and discrimination is forever ago. I dont. I can look out my office and see how it relates to today.

Sure some of us made it. But look how many of us didnt. And look to see why they didnt. Money, tuition, having to work, single mother households, lack of opportunity, prison, hopelessness. Its not a stretch or even difficult for me to see that the 1960's aint all that long ago.All good reasons why persons did not make it, but all the more reason why they should try even harder to improve themselves to make things easier for the next generation. The opportunities are out there, but so many persons are too busy pointing fingers to take them.

In terms of money, how many persons do you know waste money on trivial nonsense and teach their kids to do the same, ensuring that the cycle will continue. Then they complain that they don't have enough money to do "xyz".

And having to work does not stop anyone from going to college. I know a Bahamian single mother who put all three of her daughters through college, plus paid her own way through college and got her Master's degree without her Bachelors. Many days she ate little if nothing at all. She is sitting pretty today enjoying the fruits of her labour.

Lack of opportunity should not be included, because there is always an opportunity, it's just that when it appears, many persons are not properly prepared for it or inadvertently have put themselves into situations where they cannot take advantage of it.

Prison is far from an excuse. Watching who one hangs around and/or staying on the "straight and narrow" is a very simple thing to do. It might be a tad bit more boring, but reading a book to pass the time or learning a new skill never hurt anyone. Crime does hurt others though.

Hopelessness comes from a lack of will. Some persons have a drive that will always allow them to overcome anything while others have a spirit that is easily broken. It is up to each and every one of us to find out what our weak points are and eliminate or reduce the effect that they have on our person.

The US is different from the Bahamas ....but here i sit in DC in the nations capital employed be a relatively liberal organization.
I am the only black professional man on staff. We have five black professional women on staff. Thats it. All of us come from similar backgrounds.....sons and daughters of doctors and lawyers....the whole truth that affirmative action tends to benefit those of us with the most means...etc..etc.. All true. Its not at all difficult to see how the accumulation of wealth and the ability to educate our youth is very much attached to our very recent history.
Yes, but it has to be said that all of these things are well known.

What I don't get is that we all KNOW what the problems are. We know that focusing on hairstyles, rims and who is sexing who will not lead to success, but look at the backlash that occurred when Bill Cosby said it publicly. That alone showed the level of blatant disregard for our future. Here we have a respected figure telling us about our behinds and what we need to do and we shut him down, calling him a sellout? WTH?

When you have persons who haven't read a book since they left high school, what do you think is the attitude that they will teach their kids? Don't you think that their struggles would motivate them to push their kids harder? In many instances it doesn't.

I personally have been in the situation that you are in when I worked in the US. Being one of only a few black persons on staff is only a problem when color becomes the focal point. Your color does not affect your job performance, so it should not be an issue. Not wearing your "color" on your shoulder goes a long way in ensuring your success in those environments. Doing so also helps as well when you actually run into someone who doesn't like you, for nothing is more tortuous to a racially prejudiced person than being around someone who doesn't care whether they are liked for their color or not.

I say all this to point out that we have to be careful of how we interpret the world, for our interpretation affects what we see, how we react and what we do. Remember that a global audience is watching.

I appreciate the repost (i had not yet reached that far).
There is a lot of reading lol.
But ....it still leaves much to be desired....from the perspective of your average black man. Smith had to go.
Yes he did.
He was a racist that was beyond redemption.
Indeed he was, up to the end. He was a 20th century man with 18th century thinking.
Why should the blacks have been allowed or forced to work with him. If he wanted to do things differently they should have been done that way from the get go....not implemented by him in an attempt to prolong white rule, save his political party and minimize the "effects" of black self government.
True, he should have but as I said above He was a 20th century man with 18th century thinking.
Mugabe is a mess. So was Smith.
Agreed. I feel for the people. Do they get shot under Smith, or starve under Mugabe? Not much of a choice is it?

If I was Mugabe, I would have done my research extensively on this issue, finding out exactly what was the level of production on each farm and who held stake in those ventures.

Then I would have found out whether Zimbabwe had the skilled labour available to run more farms of that size and if not, I would have brought in investors/skilled labour from nearby countries to start such ventures as state-run competition. The clauses would have had strict guidelines as to the training of locals and the leasing (not selling) of the land that the farms were on.

I would have tripled Zimbabwe's food output before approaching the white farm owners as a collective group and negotiating the conditions by which their farms would continue to be a part of Zimbabwe's economy. One condition of the agreement would have been the creation of a coalition, which as part of the gradual reclaiming of their land, would give members first priority and significantly reduced land prices when setting up operations like theirs in neighboring countries. So while they gradually would lose ownership of their land in Zimbabwe, they would have the opportunity to gain farmland and opportunities in other nearby nations. At the same time, those neighboring nations would benefit from the expertise and equipment that these farmers would bring.

And that's just where I would start. Mugabe had the opportunity to make Zimbabwe a regional food provider, but instead of using the resources and global connections that the white farmers had, he decided to "run them outta town" in a faux display of black bravado.

We need intellectually aggressive, forward thinking and globally-minded leaders in control of these nations in Africa. Or at least leaders who surround themselves with such people.

Sounds like a plan. :)

If I was Mugabe, I would have done my research extensively on this issue, finding out exactly what was the level of production on each farm and who held stake in those ventures.

Then I would have found out whether Zimbabwe had the skilled labour available to run more farms of that size and if not, I would have brought in investors/skilled labour from nearby countries to start such ventures as state-run competition. The clauses would have had strict guidelines as to the training of locals and the leasing (not selling) of the land that the farms were on.

I would have tripled Zimbabwe's food output before approaching the white farm owners as a collective group and negotiating the conditions by which their farms would continue to be a part of Zimbabwe's economy. One condition of the agreement would have been the creation of a coalition, which as part of the gradual reclaiming of their land, would give members first priority and significantly reduced land prices when setting up operations like theirs in neighboring countries. So while they gradually would lose ownership of their land in Zimbabwe, they would have the opportunity to gain farmland and opportunities in other nearby nations. At the same time, those neighboring nations would benefit from the expertise and equipment that these farmers would bring.

And that's just where I would start. Mugabe had the opportunity to make Zimbabwe a regional food provider, but instead of using the resources and global connections that the white farmers had, he decided to "run them outta town" in a faux display of black bravado.

We need intellectually aggressive, forward thinking and globally-minded leaders in control of these nations in Africa. Or at least leaders who surround themselves with such people.


Though all this points may be valid. you guys need to know a few overlooked facts. As I posted previously of the manner the british overtook the lands in Zimbabwe in the past I forgot to also mention the facts of the land. When the British came in natives used to live on the fertile soil in Zimbabwe but they were rounded up and forced to live in communal areas where the most arid lands. Most of the White farmers in Zimbabwe grew tobacco while peasant farmers grow about 70% of the maize used in Zimbabwe. The so said "White" farm and farmers produce tobacco and cotton the crops that make money. It seems on this forum that these farmers used to produce food that feed the people of the country this is largely inaccurate. They were more concerned about making some good money. Also why is it not acknowledged that Zimbabwe is enduring its longest drought in 20 years, which followed exceptionally high rainfall that undermined the 2001 harvest. The shortage of food is directly related to the drought and trade restrictions imposed by Britain and the U.S. Also it was not till the mid to late 90's that Zimbabwe was in a economic crisis more than 15 years after this so called tyrant became the leader of that country. I just want to bring to light some things that are being overlooked.