Had it been in your power how would you have done land reform? Or is it something that cant be done? I ask Alien the same question.


We know NOW, after Mugabe screwed up how to NOT do things. I think all revolutionary leaders have taken note of this. Even Chavez.

Yes, it does.
It does when we have our leaders messing up on such a level that they take their countries backwards instead of forward.
Developing countries need to start get our act together now. As I said before, we cannot afford to make mistakes due to rash judgments and persons wasting their time trying to balance out past injustices.
If a leader cannot make rational decisions which will empower his country instead of weakening it, then that person should be replaced. Again, we cannot make mistakes in our bid to get into the top global seats of power. We need global geniuses at the helm of our nations, not persons hell-bent on getting racial revenge at their nation's economic expense.
The Doha Round is just one of many instances of why we need to get our leaders at the table of global power. We need to put past instances of weakness behind us and show that our nations and our leaders can compete with the top in the world. We need to get respect for the decisions we make, not invoke ire.
While we are wasting time talking about slavery and colonialism, First world countries are talking about how to better their countries and making deals to ensure that they retain their first world status. We need leaders who think on that level! The way that you guys blindly are defending Mugabe's decision it is no wonder the lesson is taking so long to be learned.
If you guys could put the race thing aside for a second and think globally, make you would GET it!


Dude. You are wasting bandwidth, talking about the same old same old.....nothing new here.

How do we move forward with the issues- front burner issues. NAMA....Doha Round...Economic Re-distribution and, meaningful FDI?

These are the issues in Africa- all stem from the global economic system. It is simple to say "they have to get their act together"...in what way? How? What does that mean? Which way forward? How do we not repeat the mistakes with Mugabe, without keeping the indigenous people in continual poverty?

I doubt YOU have a clue.
:tdown:

We know NOW, after Mugabe screwed up how to NOT do things. I think all revolutionary leaders have taken note of this. Even Chavez.

I am sure you are right, but what would you do? How would you do it?

Yon need to understand what's going on here.the same land that those whit farmers had, those land were originaly own by the black zimbabwean before the British even colonize Zimbabwe. When they colonize Zimbabwe the forcefuly toke those lands from the blacks. Mugabe ask them in a nice way to turn the land back over to the government to be redistrubuted back to the people. Some of them toke heed, but others had to be force off the land.

LOL! I understand what went on there. Land users(whites if you will) were successfully utilizing the land to the point of Zimbabwae became a shining light of success when looked at by africas neighbours. It was not a race issue, but how some groups became envious, specifclly, Mugambe who resent success by whites.
Mugumbe didn't ask, he demanded. He didn't negotiate, he demanded. He slimed his own citizens via anti-white rhetoric.

Good points but let me answer them

When the British came in natives used to live on the fertile soil in Zimbabwe but they were rounded up and forced to live in communal areas where the most arid lands.
True.
Most of the White farmers in Zimbabwe grew tobacco while peasant farmers grow about 70% of the maize used in Zimbabwe. The so said "White" farm and farmers produce tobacco and cotton the crops that make money. It seems on this forum that these farmers used to produce food that feed the people of the country this is largely inaccurate.
They were more concerned about making some good money
But them made income which made profits which made taxes which lifted the country.
.Also why is it not acknowledged that Zimbabwe is enduring its longest drought in 20 years, which followed exceptionally high rainfall that undermined the 2001 harvest.
I did not know this!
The shortage of food is directly related to the drought and trade restrictions imposed by Britain and the U.S.
Quite possible but the land reforms policy made matter worse.
Also it was not till the mid to late 90's that Zimbabwe was in a economic crisis more than 15 years after this so called tyrant became the leader of that country.
But his land policy is not that old.
I just want to bring to light some things that are being overlooked.
Thank you.

Well lets be honest here; Zimbabwe's crisis is not and cannot blamed on one factor but it is a complex situation that will need a complex solution. If Mugabe is ousted/assassinate who or what group of people should lead that new Zimbabwe we just witnessed what is happen when a leader is taken out without having a concise long term plan(IRAQ). The US would lead to the opposition MDC but they cant be trusted, they cant even agree among themselves. they are currently split into two groups and are going to run candidates against each other in a constituency. They also are a puppet group of Uncle Sam this is well documented and cant be denied, they admit and also are very violent using Al-Qaeda like tactics bombing places etc. Their leadership even acknowledges this. The main reasons of their economic crisis has deep historical roots. Its a combination of a drought, sanctions from the EU and unkle Sam, corruption of SOME government officals and a land reform that was taken out in a wrong manner. To the last point Mr. Robert Gabriel Mugabe might forever tarnish his legacy. Though he is seen as a revolutionary hero like Mandela, Nkrumah et al. For leading and defeating the colonizer powers. Even when he took over he didn't kill the former leader who had racist thoughts, policies he even worked with him for a few years before an issue that dealt with race came up before he banished the former leader from the country, guess he isnt as evil as we thought

I am sure you are right, but what would you do? How would you do it?


Me. Well. After we have learned form the infamous Zimbabwe mistake. Also, how we have gleaned form different pathways to development from Revolutionary Europe and now, what we see in the emerging markets- coupled with the NAMA and Doha Round trade initatives, which puts the issue in real time, I would have to incorporate a diversified strategy to re-distributive policies which are all inclusive, but, sensitive to the needs of the indigenous people.

This is on a case by case basis and economy by economy. For example, The Bahamas may be endowed with resources, which may not be evident in Zimbabwe and vice versa- as well as potential area's of the economy, which need development and, integrative policies which are meaningful. This is a bit ambiguous, partly because issues like what I speak of, need to e tailor made and, I don't have time to outline the critical developmental check points.

So, CG, there are things we can do and I think, if we were to focus on what we can do and what we can make better, we can get out of this race baiting CG.
:)

I dont know why you guys are even replying, its clear that SOME of those who have a problem with the British PM on this, could care less about the people of Zimbabwe, their only concern is that its an other opportunity to attack whitey.
Sometimes the things you say leave me thinking Rory.

You know whats not far when dealing with developing and 3rd world countries. Many of the per se "Sophisticated" societies are this because of a few hundred years of evolution and they were allowed to do this without interference from outside parties but when it comes to the 3rd and developing world they are expected in a few decades to catch up these other societies that many owe their success to taking and not compensating other places.

are they doing it now?


of COURSE they are...just not as blatantly as forcing people on a ship!

If I could just interject sweetly and swiftly.

I haven't read all of the posts on this subject, but from what I have read, I can see that there are some of you who seek to make this Zimbabwe issue a black and white issue, which clearly, it is not. Some of you try to make this a race issue, which again, Im not so sure is appropriate. But then the rest of you have made good strides in trying to demonstrate that things are not always what they seem (ie. Mugambe the Demon)

To say what had happened in Zimbabwe is entirely Mugabe's fault is superficial and wrong. I am not saying his policies were sound, but I am saying (although not directly in relation to Zimbabwe), sometimes we have to understand that although slavery is over, economic slavery is still very much practiced, and when the rich (white) boys grab you by the balls...they will sqeeze you, and squeeze you, and then call you corrupt. Look at Jamiace. Haiti. Many many others.

It is NOT a fair playing field and don't be so niave to argue that it is. Yes of few of us (developing countries), (people of colour), slip through the cracks and make it, but you would be foolish to think that we are being given a fair chance to compete economically and/or otherwise.

Anyway, that was probably of topic, but das my 5 cents

I am saying (although not directly in relation to Zimbabwe), sometimes we have to understand that although slavery is over, economic slavery is still very much practiced, and when the rich (white) boys grab you by the balls...they will squeeze you, and squeeze you, and then call you corrupt. Look at Jamaica. Haiti. Many many others.

It is NOT a fair playing field and don't be so naive to argue that it is. Yes of few of us (developing countries), (people of colour), slip through the cracks and make it, but you would be foolish to think that we are being given a fair chance to compete economically and/or otherwise.
Anyway, that was probably of topic, but das my 5 cents
Right on topic actually..and it brings up a very good point.

I sincerely believe that we as a race have enough intellects of color to see exactly what is going on with the "economic imbalance", as you would call it, but what puzzles me is that everyone seems to be content in simply complaining about it or only "waxing intelligent" on how colonialism messed up our race (or the world).

By now don't you believe that we should have started doing something about it? That is, refusing to let ANY of our leaders make such drastic mistakes, which only serve to demonize their image (and by association, ours as well) in the global arena. Yes indeed, when our leaders mess up they do deserve to be chastised severely. We have a lot of catching up to do and we must raise to extreme levels the standards that our leaders are held to. If we don't, how in the world do we honestly expect to "catch up" in the circle of global power?

My viewpoint is that we should have gotten "the point" a while ago, and started changing things - within ourselves and within the communities of persons who understand clearly how to overcome this situation.

And to further my point, if it is in one's perception that the situation is imbalanced, would stating the obvious be beneficial to the cause? No, not really. All that it does is evoke the ire of those among us who do not fully understand the complex social, economical, political, racial and psychological "war" that is going on. Such emotional outrage can be more detrimental to our progress than anything, for emotions can be good when inspiring others to follow, but it is the collective intellect of the masses that we really need to harness. We need minds that can focus past the emotions of anger, "revenge", and/or envy and get the job done of leveling the playing field (or at least getting on the winning side) in a quick and concise manner.

All that we truly are doing when we get stuck on the slavery and colonialism "treadmill" is beating our chest in a display of historic knowledge. This world is for the dominant, the survivors, those who can adapt quickly to the environment and succeed, despite all obstacles - and do it without complaining, crying unfair or looking woefully back at mistakes of the past. The latter characteristics will never gain respect. When we begin to understand this, and combine it with intelligent and strategically-executed action, our seat at the top levels of power is guaranteed.

It was NEVER about race Yorick- at least with me it was not. My concern was with the policy moving forward. You and CG are "one trick ponies"...race, or, perceived racism is all you have to offer the debate.

I will say however, former land owning farmers, going back to reclaim their land in Zimbabwe, sounds as absurd as repparations for the families of former slaves..

However, Mugabe is out of touch with the real rest of the world and, his managerial style if medieval.

So Yorick, you miss the point and inject your point- race baiting- into the talk.

It was NEVER about race Yorick- at least with me it was not.
Yes, speak for yourself.

What's that saying about "throw a rock into a pack a dogs and the one who yelps the loudest" again?

As for the rest of what you said, read every word of this thread over again. You are so busy attacking on a personal level, trying to derail the comments that I make that you obviously skipped over the parts (and also conveniently left out your own guilty acts) where others DID make the topic about race.

And let's analyze a part of your statement for a sec:

former land owning farmers, going back to reclaim their land in Zimbabwe, sounds absurd...

LAND OWNING farmers going back to reclaim THEIR land, you say?

So you DO admit and acknowledge that it was THEIR land that was taken away?

Your rationalization in this entire scenario is akin to agreeing with the Bahamian government taking away land from white Eastern Roaders (white farm owners), kicking them out of the country and giving their land to Fox Hillians or Kemp Roadians merely because of what happened in the past during slave times AND all in the name of the fact that they are black Zimbabweans...oops...I mean...Bahamians.

Your remarks clue into your prejudicial tendencies. You wish to punish those in the present for their forefathers' acts of the past.

It's amazing what SOME persons will agree with when it's "done" in the name of "getting even" for slavery.

No "one-trick ponies" here, kid. Your perception is skewed....badly.

If I could just interject sweetly and swiftly.
I haven't read all of the posts on this subject, but from what I have read, I can see that there are some of you who seek to make this Zimbabwe issue a black and white issue, which clearly, it is not. Some of you try to make this a race issue, which again, Im not so sure is appropriate. But then the rest of you have made good strides in trying to demonstrate that things are not always what they seem (ie. Mugambe the Demon)
To say what had happened in Zimbabwe is entirely Mugabe's fault is superficial and wrong. I am not saying his policies were sound, but I am saying (although not directly in relation to Zimbabwe), sometimes we have to understand that although slavery is over, economic slavery is still very much practiced, and when the rich (white) boys grab you by the balls...they will sqeeze you, and squeeze you, and then call you corrupt. Look at Jamiace. Haiti. Many many others.
It is NOT a fair playing field and don't be so niave to argue that it is. Yes of few of us (developing countries), (people of colour), slip through the cracks and make it, but you would be foolish to think that we are being given a fair chance to compete economically and/or otherwise.
Anyway, that was probably of topic, but das my 5 cents


Well said.