I wish we could eat fruit and veg right from the vine, as God intended. I grow some myself that way and they are full of flavor. I have also grown hybrids - they are just fine too and they produce much more and are not subject (as much) to disease and pests. However, we are in an unenviable situation. There are millions and millions of people to feed, and less and less farmers to do the growing. Man must take things in hand. Hybrids, irradiation, hormones, fertilizer and cross breeding of DNA must be done or millions will starve. I can tell you, with out fear of contradiction, that you have been eating such foods for years. Without man's intervention in the food supply we would be in a shocking state! Let me give you one small example. I grow tomatoes. However, they are inflicted with nematodes. Nematodes (God's creation) are worms that get into the roots and kills the plant, often before it can produce a large crop. Man has produced a tomato plant that is resistant to nematodes. The result much, much more tomatoes.

Man has also intervened in diseases that inflict plants and us! Simple diseases that have killed millions have been brought under control, as God sends new ones. Take a disease that is common in the Bahamas - Diabetes. In the past millions died from this. Thanks to Dr. Banting, and others, millions now live with the disease - managed by pills or insulin.

Man has intervened in nature. Some time he fails and he has to start all over again. Sometimes he is successful. But man tries! He tries to improve his fellow man's lot. God, when all things are taken into account, does little. It is true that he gives life, but he cannot sustain it. That job is up to us, as partners in life.


I would accept this. The Christian must put the law of God ahead of man's law. The Buddhist, Hindu, etc, must do the same.


So would I! So would the atheist! Commons sense must prevail. In fact the law states that 45mph is the maximum. Lower speeds are demanded in times of heavy rain or in the example you made. Driving at a lower rate of speed, when circumstances demand it is not illegal.


Man is ready to admit that his laws, and the administration of those laws is not always 100%. They change as the circumstances require. Perhaps the Bahamian court system is a bit slow in this but the opportunity for change is there. Under God's law, change cannot happen.


When I said that we are all lost, I meant in our natural state, Yet, there are Christian groups that say one cannot be sure of salvation, they live in the hope of salvation. Still others say one can be sure. The same holds true in other religions, there is no agreement. Yet, the truth is - there is not one shred of credible evidence to suggest that there is an after-life to be saved to!

You maybe right in your belief that you are saved. It might also be true that you are not - it depends on whom you talk to! Some Christian might agree with you if you are one of their members, but others will not, as you do not follow their interpretations. Only death will provide the answer.

Now, this might seem strange to you but some of the great Christians I have talked to, as well as those of other faiths, do not assume, nor seek, salvation. Salvation is a small part in their belief system. What is important is service to God and mankind. If, when the last bell is sounded, they go to a heaven or a hell, they feel that this must be left to a just God and they will be satisfied with his decision. Their faith is in God, not Salvation.


Thanks CG, but I'd like a little further info on a few points. I did not know that man had to produce those hybrids, etc, to help feed the millions, but I believe you. I understand that much of these goods I have been consuming for years as you have said. I also believe that for our health's sake at some point we might have to curb our consumption of some of them. Some doctors say that in the case of genetically modified foods, we don't even know WHAT effect (if any) they are having on our bodies! Except for fish I have not eaten any other kind of meat in about 8 years. Right now I even feel like stopping eating fish, as Dr Mercola (he's on the net) says that all ocean fish have mercury! Some months ago I saw on the net that the grouper has the 2nd or 3rd highest amount of mercury in its body than most of the other fish! This was shocking to me, even though I had stop eating grouper years ago -- they just don't taste right to me anymore.

I found out about nematodes about two and a half years ago, after they had just about destroyed the banana trees in my yard. About a month after I treated them, hurricane Michelle came and washed away the treatment. I treated them again in January this year -- they seem to be coming on fairly well since the last two recent hurricanes. My yard is small but these nice banana trees used to give me some really nice bananas. Haven't had any in about 3 or 4 years from them.

Sounds a bit strange to me that you refer to nematodes as God's creation (?). And that you would say that God sends new diseases (?). I believe you know what my "explanation" regarding this would be, ie, that these things happen because this is a fallen world. That is , after Adam and Eve were put out of the Garden because they had sinned. The Garden of Eden was a perfect place, free from all diseases, etc, and God had cursed the earth because of their sin. Now that is the explanation that I hear experienced preachers give as well as my Bible notes and dictionary.

And even though (according to Bible dictionary explanation) one of the reasons Christ had come was to redeem us from the curse of poverty, sin and death, we still have to pray and ask God for help with these issues. (I am reading a book on prayer by Myles Munroe in which he says that it is illegal for God to be doing things for us on the earth because he has already given man full dominion to control and rule the earth, so He (God) needs our permission to help us in matters on the earth!).

I have read and studied quite a bit about some of the leading diseases like diabetes, arthritis and cancer. I always read complimentary/alternative methods of healing these diseases. I don't believe that conventional medicine will ever improve their methods of treating most diseases. It is said that the drugs that are used for the most part really don't promote healing but just ease the symptoms. That is why many medical doctors are also using herbs, vitamins, minerals, etc, along with conventional methods, which I believe is the best way to go. And if we stop eating all the greasy foods and the greasy FRIED fish, dairy products, etc, and take daily exercises, we would not contract most of these diseases. Make our diets plant based mostly. This is what I believe will greatly reduce incidences of these diseases!

It would also be interesting to understand why you say that "There is not one shred of credible evidence to suggest that there is an after-life to be saved to!" This would seem to indicate that Christ came to earth and give up His earthly life for mankind all to no avail!

About salvation, I understand what you are saying up to a point. As far as I know it is important to accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour and after that is done and you are bapsized, you are saved! And His Holy Spirit comes to live in you! But many believe that your salvation would not be really complete until you receive your glorified, spiritual body, which would not happen until you die and meet the risen Christ! Now, to me that is very reasonable!

But I don't understand Christians of long standing not attaching much importance to salvation. Yes, serving God and mankind are very important, but that would not get you to heaven, because that would be implying that one is saved by WORKS, which the Bible does not teach. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". (Eph 2: 8 - 9).

i thought you got gifts of God through good works?

Sounds a bit strange to me that you refer to nematodes as God's creation (?). And that you would say that God sends new diseases (?). I believe you know what my "explanation" regarding this would be, ie, that these things happen because this is a fallen world. That is , after Adam and Eve were put out of the Garden because they had sinned. The Garden of Eden was a perfect place, free from all diseases, etc, and God had cursed the earth because of their sin. Now that is the explanation that I hear experienced preachers give as well as my Bible notes and dictionary.
If God created everything, he created Nematodes, and diseases. If he is the only creator, no other being created them. If he did not create them then either they adapted or there is another force that can create. If that was the case, there would be another creator. If, and it is a big unprovable "if'" the world was pure before the "Fall." God, when he cursed the earth, had to create all the things that we call evil!

Nematodes are designed to suck the juices out of plant roots. Their job is to kill in order for them to live. That is what they do! That is what they were made to do, like most of creation, "Life lives on death." The world's structure was designed to be that way - from the beginning.

The story of the Garden of Eden is a "scientific" explanation that suited the times in which it was written. There are many other creation stories from other religions and societies. Each formed to answer the vexing questions of the day. The "proof" that they were "real" came from the belief that the stories came from a God, or Gods, lips. In our day and age we have new creation stories. They come from science, observation and experiment. It is not a fixed story. As new things are found, the picture becomes clearer and clearer. Holy creation stories are fixed, they cannot change. One must look at the facts and the probabilities and decide which is correct. Many people opt for the opinion that Holy stories answer Holy questions and Scientific stories answer Scientific questions. That seems to be the way most people think. The proof of modern science is hard to dismiss. But the Holy stories are still clung to, sometimes out of fear of upsetting God.

And even though (according to Bible dictionary explanation) one of the reasons Christ had come was to redeem us from the curse of poverty, sin and death, we still have to pray and ask God for help with these issues. (I am reading a book on prayer by Myles Munroe in which he says that it is illegal for God to be doing things for us on the earth because he has already given man full dominion to control and rule the earth, so He (God) needs our permission to help us in matters on the earth!).
I have heard Dr. Munroe on the radio many times plugging his new book. I must get a copy. From what I have heard about the book it sounds a lot like he has used some Buddhist philosophy. However, his point that God needs our permission makes us greater than God! A God, by the very definition, requires no ones permission!

I have read and studied quite a bit about some of the leading diseases like diabetes, arthritis and cancer. I always read complimentary/alternative methods of healing these diseases. I don't believe that conventional medicine will ever improve their methods of treating most diseases. It is said that the drugs that are used for the most part really don't promote healing but just ease the symptoms. That is why many medical doctors are also using herbs, vitamins, minerals, etc, along with conventional methods, which I believe is the best way to go. And if we stop eating all the greasy foods and the greasy FRIED fish, dairy products, etc, and take daily exercises, we would not contract most of these diseases. Make our diets plant based mostly. This is what I believe will greatly reduce incidences of these diseases!
You are right there! I think it is wise to use both kinds of medicine. Both have their place. But it is also clear that if it were not for conventional, and alternative medicine, many of us would not be here today!

It would also be interesting to understand why you say that "There is not one shred of credible evidence to suggest that there is an after-life to be saved to!" This would seem to indicate that Christ came to earth and give up His earthly life for mankind all to no avail!
That Christ came to save sinners is a belief.
There is no fact to it! There cannot be fact to it. It must be a matter of belief. In many religions belief is the thing that impresses the God(s) Facts, in fact, remove belief. If you know, you do not need to believe. The Devil knows there is a God. It does not do him a bit of good! Christians believe that Christ came to do what was needed for salvation, they do not, and cannot know that as a fact. That is just how God wants it - belief! There is a Bible passage, "We walk by faith not by sight." That could equally be said as, "We walk by belief not by fact."

The same hold true for an after-life. I have done much study on the matter. There is no proof. Of course the absences of proof is not proof it does not exist. It must remain a matter of faith.

Strangely enough, my house is said to be haunted! Many people have said that they have seen the Ghost but they can offer no proof. I have never seen it - I kind of wish I did. I guess Ghosts, some kind of proof of an after-life, are a matter of belief too!

About salvation, I understand what you are saying up to a point. As far as I know it is important to accept Christ as your Lord and Saviour and after that is done and you are bapsized, you are saved! And His Holy Spirit comes to live in you! But many believe that your salvation would not be really complete until you receive your glorified, spiritual body, which would not happen until you die and meet the risen Christ! Now, to me that is very reasonable!

But I don't understand Christians of long standing not attaching much importance to salvation. Yes, serving God and mankind are very important, but that would not get you to heaven, because that would be implying that one is saved by WORKS, which the Bible does not teach. "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast". (Eph 2: 8 - 9).

I too was a bit puzzled by, as you said, "Christians of long standing not attaching much importance to salvation." The answer to that is that in the Christian life (true also in all religions) there are levels of living the faith. The longer one is in the faith and actively learning and trying to understand, he sees things in a different manner. He sees his own salvation as secondary to the salvation, and help, of others. In Buddhism such a person is called a Bodhisattiva - someone who puts off his own salvation in order to help others. Such a person, no matter what his faith, keeps pushing himself, his own comforts, even his own salvation, to the back ground. At the same time he moves the betterment of other to the foreground. No matter what our faith we all should strive to become Bodhisattivas. Christ himself was one! He did not have to be born, or to die, but he did it willingly. He put the betterment of others ahead of himself.

In the Christian faith we read, "Faith without works is dead." I think that is in the Book of James. When I speak of "works" I am not talking about something that one must do to gain salvation. "Works" are something that flows naturally from the believer's heart, as apples naturally grow from an apple tree. A true believer cannot help but do good works. They might not be required but they are a sign of belief, just as apples are a sign of an apple tree.

If there is any proof for the reality of Religions, I think those works are it.

If God created everything, he created Nematodes, and diseases. If he is the only creator, no other being created them. If he did not create them then either they adapted or there is another force that can create. If that was the case, there would be another creator. If, and it is a big unprovable "if'" the world was pure before the "Fall." God, when he cursed the earth, had to create all the things that we call evil!

Nematodes are designed to suck the juices out of plant roots. Their job is to kill in order for them to live. That is what they do! That is what they were made to do, like most of creation, "Life lives on death." The world's structure was designed to be that way - from the beginning.

The story of the Garden of Eden is a "scientific" explanation that suited the times in which it was written. There are many other creation stories from other religions and societies. Each formed to answer the vexing questions of the day. The "proof" that they were "real" came from the belief that the stories came from a God, or Gods, lips. In our day and age we have new creation stories. They come from science, observation and experiment. It is not a fixed story. As new things are found, the picture becomes clearer and clearer. Holy creation stories are fixed, they cannot change. One must look at the facts and the probabilities and decide which is correct. Many people opt for the opinion that Holy stories answer Holy questions and Scientific stories answer Scientific questions. That seems to be the way most people think. The proof of modern science is hard to dismiss. But the Holy stories are still clung to, sometimes out of fear of upsetting God.


I have heard Dr. Munroe on the radio many times plugging his new book. I must get a copy. From what I have heard about the book it sounds a lot like he has used some Buddhist philosophy. However, his point that God needs our permission makes us greater than God! A God, by the very definition, requires no ones permission!


You are right there! I think it is wise to use both kinds of medicine. Both have their place. But it is also clear that if it were not for conventional, and alternative medicine, many of us would not be here today!


There is no fact to it! There cannot be fact to it. It must be a matter of belief. In many religions belief is the thing that impresses the God(s) Facts, in fact, remove belief. If you know, you do not need to believe. The Devil knows there is a God. It does not do him a bit of good! Christians believe that Christ came to do what was needed for salvation, they do not, and cannot know that as a fact. That is just how God wants it - belief! There is a Bible passage, "We walk by faith not by sight." That could equally be said as, "We walk by belief not by fact."

The same hold true for an after-life. I have done much study on the matter. There is no proof. Of course the absences of proof is not proof it does not exist. It must remain a matter of faith.

Strangely enough, my house is said to be haunted! Many people have said that they have seen the Ghost but they can offer no proof. I have never seen it - I kind of wish I did. I guess Ghosts, some kind of proof of an after-life, are a matter of belief too!



I too was a bit puzzled by, as you said, "Christians of long standing not attaching much importance to salvation." The answer to that is that in the Christian life (true also in all religions) there are levels of living the faith. The longer one is in the faith and actively learning and trying to understand, he sees things in a different manner. He sees his own salvation as secondary to the salvation, and help, of others. In Buddhism such a person is called a Bodhisattiva - someone who puts off his own salvation in order to help others. Such a person, no matter what his faith, keeps pushing himself, his own comforts, even his own salvation, to the back ground. At the same time he moves the betterment of other to the foreground. No matter what our faith we all should strive to become Bodhisattivas. Christ himself was one! He did not have to be born, or to die, but he did it willingly. He put the betterment of others ahead of himself.

In the Christian faith we read, "Faith without works is dead." I think that is in the Book of James. When I speak of "works" I am not talking about something that one must do to gain salvation. "Works" are something that flows naturally from the believer's heart, as apples naturally grow from an apple tree. A true believer cannot help but do good works. They might not be required but they are a sign of belief, just as apples are a sign of an apple tree.

If there is any proof for the reality of Religions, I think those works are it.


Good CG, but let me add a few things. Regarding the creation of disease, I thought Satan would be the one who would do that. He is strongly oppesed to God and the Bible calls him the god of this world.

Dr Munroe could have well used Buddhist philosophy in his book on Prayer. He is very well read. I believe good, moral teachings can come from many sources. Also, could it be a case where Buddhism and Christianity have some of the same or similar teachings?

When Dr Munroe says that God needs our permission to change things on the earth, what I believe he means is that being the Perfect Gentleman that God is, He prefers not to intrude without out our inviting Him to do so throuth our prayers! Also, the Bible implies that human beings can limit God -- see psalm 78 verses 40 & 41.

I believe the moment we die, we (ie our spirit being) will meet the risen Christ. The Bible says "Absent from the body, present with the Lord". Some Christian religions don't believe it happens like that. They believe our bones will stay in the grave until judgement day and we will meet the Lord after we are resurrected. I don't think it makes much sense arguing the point, I just want to meet Him!

Speaking about ghosts, I saw one once and there was "proof". I was a young man then and we had just scaled Collins wall walking towards East Street. I was escorting a lady Home at about 1'oclock in the morning. I did not believe in ghosts at the time and I was not afraid of anything. All of a sudden I heard the lady shouted "Look, Look, as she pointed ahead. I saw this body, just the chest and arm section, in a dark coat, just slowly floating ahead in the direction of East Street where we were heading. I saw it but I did not want her to become too afraid, so I said "O, that's nothing!" But about a hundred and twenty feet ahead of us there was a man also walking toward East street. Sudenly, I heard him screaming out and cussing. I only laughed. I knew then we were not seeing things, but it was really a spirit.

Good CG, but let me add a few things. Regarding the creation of disease, I thought Satan would be the one who would do that. He is strongly oppesed to God and the Bible calls him the god of this world.
So your faith believes, but does it give him the power to create?

Dr Munroe could have well used Buddhist philosophy in his book on Prayer. He is very well read. I believe good, moral teachings can come from many sources. Also, could it be a case where Buddhism and Christianity have some of the same or similar teachings?
This is true. It warms my heart that you can see that. I wish more could!

When Dr Munroe says that God needs our permission to change things on the earth, what I believe he means is that being the Perfect Gentleman that God is, He prefers not to intrude without out our inviting Him to do so throuth our prayers! Also, the Bible implies that human beings can limit God -- see psalm 78 verses 40 & 41.
Again, this is true. But I find it difficult to believe.

I believe the moment we die, we (ie our spirit being) will meet the risen Christ. The Bible says "Absent from the body, present with the Lord". Some Christian religions don't believe it happens like that. They believe our bones will stay in the grave until judgement day and we will meet the Lord after we are resurrected. I don't think it makes much sense arguing the point, I just want to meet Him!
I hope your wish comes true. That is my wish for you.

Speaking about ghosts, I saw one once and there was "proof". I was a young man then and we had just scaled Collins wall walking towards East Street. I was escorting a lady Home at about 1'oclock in the morning. I did not believe in ghosts at the time and I was not afraid of anything. All of a sudden I heard the lady shouted "Look, Look, as she pointed ahead. I saw this body, just the chest and arm section, in a dark coat, just slowly floating ahead in the direction of East Street where we were heading. I saw it but I did not want her to become too afraid, so I said "O, that's nothing!" But about a hundred and twenty feet ahead of us there was a man also walking toward East street. Sudenly, I heard him screaming out and cussing. I only laughed. I knew then we were not seeing things, but it was really a spirit.
I wish I could see one! (In my house that is a possibility!)

after all that (going from a non christian related thread, to a totally christian related topic :-) ....

The Bahamas is still 3rd world, and nothing we say or do can change that, right now..

I believe the moment we die, we (ie our spirit being) will meet the risen Christ. The Bible says "Absent from the body, present with the Lord". Some Christian religions don't believe it happens like that. They believe our bones will stay in the grave until judgement day and we will meet the Lord after we are resurrected. I don't think it makes much sense arguing the point, I just want to meet Him!


Not trying t start a dispute or change the the topic ...

but assuming that there really is a God and Christ, which I happen to beleive,
I have read the following ...

Since God is a just God why would he judge you immediatley at the moment of death and wisk you off to be in his presence, which implies that if you were rejected you would be sent to "hell" to burn immediatley as well?

Then, perhaps hundreds of years later Christ will come back to earth and raise everyone from the dead accepted or rejected and then send you back to hell? or take you with your new improved body back to heaven again?

Why would you be punished or rewarded at the time of death and then be given a new body if rewarded and go back to heaven or be sen to burn again?
Even our judicial system only punishes or rewards once not twice.

to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, I believe is a figure of speech, that simply means that when you die the next thing you see when christ returns is the 'lord' ... why else would he come back to earth to raise everyone from death?

on a completely different topic it has also been suggested that the 'damned' will not burn forever, and that eternal damnation implies that you will be burnt to ashes and never have a chance of getting into heaven since you will be eternally destroyed from existence or I guess un-created, which makes te punishment eternal. Why would a loving God punish his creations for eternity? What good would it do him or the saved to burn the damned forever?

a lot of things in the holy bible are not meant to be taken literally and often the original greek or hebrew(whatever it is) uses more specific words that makes thing extremely clear. further some bibles change small words that in turn change the entire context of a verse. that is why God forbids man to add or remove from the bible.

'the apple is red' is not the same as 'the apple was red'.

Tiny changes can have big impacts.

Vicky, when you ask who am I calling tares, am kind of losing you. I thought verse 38 explains it clearly enough: Christ says "...the tares are the sons of the wicked one". I take that to mean sons of Satan, ie, people who are woefully wicked

Now, drawing from that scripture, that is my interpretation of what is meant by tares in that context.

If I am incorrect, all I can say is what I heard Joyce Meyer once said, that she does not believe that anyone or any religious denomination has the correct interpretation ALL the scriptures, and that although we don't fully understand ALL scriptures, there is MUCH that we DO understand.


A good answer
I agree and yet not. Are not tares part of the Creator creation??? Can tares exist with out the Creator's intent for them to exist? Who created Satan???
As to the Children of Satan who says who is a child of Satan??
Which human/religion/faith has the right to judges who is who??

Ok CG, I never studied how man experimented with and improved flowers, but for sure they really messed up fruits and vegetables. I have heard so many anecdotes about how the hybrid varieties of friut and vegetables have little or no nutrients, that most of them are only fit for fibre. Over the years I have read so much that is negative of what herbalists, nutritionists and medical doctors said about hybrids, that I was under the impression that anytime man tried to improve on nature in anything he would fail miserably. I believe you must know of these experiments regarding hybrid fruits and vegetables.

When Delroy spoke of not accepting the righteousness of man, I was assuming he was referring to that part of Acts 5:29 which states, "We ought to obey God rather than men". I believe Christians are obligated to obey God's laws if man's laws conflict with God's.

I think a perfect example of this is the case of a Christian lady who was the accountant for a company. A customer had overpaid a bill by sending in a cheque for much more than the selling price of the purchased item. The manager/owner of the business told her not to send out any statements to the customer with the credit balance. Apparently he was planning to put in a journal entry later to clear the records, which would reflect a zero balance on the customer's account. But the lady knew that the proper thing to do was to send the customer a cheque for the overpayment. By obeying the manager, the company would be guilty of stealing, robbing the customer of money he was entitled to.

The accountant held her ground and told her boss that in all good conscience she could not do what he had requested. She was afraid -- she did not want to lose her job. A few days later he came, slapped the statement on her desk and told her to send the customer a cheque for the difference. The upshot to this was that she received a top promotion on the job, just subordinate to the owner himself! He felt that she was a person of good morals whom he could trust!

There is nothing in the Bible that says "thou shall not speed", fine. But imagine this sscenario: Say a long stretch of road like Harold Road. There are not too many homes and children, and people walking all over the road most of the time. The speed limit there for cars is 45 mph. Now suppose that road soon becomes densely populated with many children and people all over the place like some of the other over the hill areas, and government does not reduce the speed limit. It would be unGodly to drive that road at 45 mph in those new circumstances. You know God would not want you to be irresponsible and endanger others lives as well your own. So I would disobey man's laws. I would drive at a lower rate of speed.

[In all fairness, there may be some of man's laws which are not in accordance with God's laws which we would usually obey. Our jury system might not be the best example of this, but when I sat on it about 15 years ago, it was a mess (God is a God of order), and just yesterday, someone said they are having juries who can't read. Though I have met persons who can't read who have much wisdom and common sense, I don't think they shoud serve on a jury. And I don't like serving because of the messy experience I have had, yet if I am called, to avoid going to jail I would serve, Iwould "obey"].

CG, you say that we are all lost. Here you have lost me. I fail to see how anyone who has accepted the Lord Jesus Christ (the Creator of the universe and all that is in it) Excuse me but did you say allas his/her Lord and Saviour can regard himself/herself as lost!

Here is the differance between your faith and mine. (I might be wrong) For you Christ is the same as the Creator. For me Christ is a child (creation) of the Creator.

Good CG, but let me add a few things. Regarding the creation of disease, I thought Satan would be the one who would do that. He is strongly oppesed to God and the Bible calls him the god of this world.
Who created Satan? If it was the Creator that knows all (past, present and future) then the Creator knows what the Creator is doing and Satan serves the Creator's purpose. Everything exist because of the Creator. Because with out it being the Creators intent for it to exist it could not exist.
Dr Munroe could have well used Buddhist philosophy in his book on Prayer. He is very well read. I believe good, moral teachings can come from many sources. Also, could it be a case where Buddhism and Christianity have some of the same or similar teachings?

When Dr Munroe says that God needs our permission to change things on the earth, what I believe he means is that being the Perfect Gentleman that God is, The Creator already knows the Creator dose not need an invatation. Or are you going to say the Creator does not know). He prefers not to intrude without out our inviting Him to do so throuth our prayers! Also, the Bible implies that human beings can limit God -- see psalm 78 verses 40 & 41.

I believe the moment we die, we (ie our spirit being) will meet the risen Christ. The Bible says "Absent from the body, present with the Lord". Some Christian religions don't believe it happens like that. They believe our bones will stay in the grave until judgement day and we will meet the Lord after we are resurrected. I don't think it makes much sense arguing the point, I just want to meet Him!

Speaking about ghosts, I saw one once and there was "proof". I was a young man then and we had just scaled Collins wall walking towards East Street. I was escorting a lady Home at about 1'oclock in the morning. I did not believe in ghosts at the time and I was not afraid of anything. All of a sudden I heard the lady shouted "Look, Look, as she pointed ahead. I saw this body, just the chest and arm section, in a dark coat, just slowly floating ahead in the direction of East Street where we were heading. I saw it but I did not want her to become too afraid, so I said "O, that's nothing!" But about a hundred and twenty feet ahead of us there was a man also walking toward East street. Sudenly, I heard him screaming out and cussing. I only laughed. I knew then we were not seeing things, but it was really a spirit.

You might have seen proof of the spirit world but that is not proof of the intent of the Creator.

Not trying t start a dispute or change the the topic ...

but assuming that there really is a God and Christ, which I happen to beleive,
I have read the following ...

Since God is a just God why would he judge you immediatley at the moment of death and wisk you off to be in his presence, which implies that if you were rejected you would be sent to "hell" to burn immediatley as well?

Then, perhaps hundreds of years later Christ will come back to earth and raise everyone from the dead accepted or rejected and then send you back to hell? or take you with your new improved body back to heaven again?

Why would you be punished or rewarded at the time of death and then be given a new body if rewarded and go back to heaven or be sen to burn again?
Even our judicial system only punishes or rewards once not twice.

to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, I believe is a figure of speech, that simply means that when you die the next thing you see when christ returns is the 'lord' ... why else would he come back to earth to raise everyone from death?

on a completely different topic it has also been suggested that the 'damned' will not burn forever, and that eternal damnation implies that you will be burnt to ashes and never have a chance of getting into heaven since you will be eternally destroyed from existence or I guess un-created, which makes te punishment eternal. Why would a loving God punish his creations for eternity? What good would it do him or the saved to burn the damned forever?

a lot of things in the holy bible are not meant to be taken literally and often the original greek or hebrew(whatever it is) uses more specific words that makes thing extremely clear. further some bibles change small words that in turn change the entire context of a verse. that is why God forbids man to add or remove from the bible.
Very well said.

'the apple is red' is not the same as 'the apple was red'.

Tiny changes can have big impacts.

after all that (going from a non christian related thread, to a totally christian related topic :-) ....

The Bahamas is still 3rd world, and nothing we say or do can change that, right now..


Yes we can do something. Take the island of Andros which has an unlimited water supply, the only Bahamian island which is said to be able to accommodate all Bahamians comfortably brecause of it large size. Get all the millionaire Bahamians to build it up solidly with all the modern infrastructure: Roads, electronics, electrical and mechanical engineering, computers, modern homes, you name it, everything top of the line!!! Like a giant Freeport! Then let's all move to Andros and live happily ever after! Wouldn't that be just great, Rory!

Not trying t start a dispute or change the the topic ...

but assuming that there really is a God and Christ, which I happen to beleive,
I have read the following ...

Since God is a just God why would he judge you immediatley at the moment of death and wisk you off to be in his presence, which implies that if you were rejected you would be sent to "hell" to burn immediatley as well?

Then, perhaps hundreds of years later Christ will come back to earth and raise everyone from the dead accepted or rejected and then send you back to hell? or take you with your new improved body back to heaven again?

Why would you be punished or rewarded at the time of death and then be given a new body if rewarded and go back to heaven or be sen to burn again?
Even our judicial system only punishes or rewards once not twice.

to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord, I believe is a figure of speech, that simply means that when you die the next thing you see when christ returns is the 'lord' ... why else would he come back to earth to raise everyone from death?

on a completely different topic it has also been suggested that the 'damned' will not burn forever, and that eternal damnation implies that you will be burnt to ashes and never have a chance of getting into heaven since you will be eternally destroyed from existence or I guess un-created, which makes te punishment eternal. Why would a loving God punish his creations for eternity? What good would it do him or the saved to burn the damned forever?

a lot of things in the holy bible are not meant to be taken literally and often the original greek or hebrew(whatever it is) uses more specific words that makes thing extremely clear. further some bibles change small words that in turn change the entire context of a verse. that is why God forbids man to add or remove from the bible.

'the apple is red' is not the same as 'the apple was red'.

Tiny changes can have big impacts.


OK bsm, let me attempt to shed a little light. Some of your conclusions re God not burning people forever are what the Seventh Day Adventists teach, and I believe it -- it sems very reasonable.

The version of the Bible I use is the New King James Life study Bible, which has many notes by many highly respected Bible teachers and pastors. [This is not to say that they are perfect or are always right!].

That part of the Bible which says "absent from the body, present with the Lord" was interpreted by one of these Bible teachers to mean that we, meaning our spirit or inner man, meets the risen Lord upon breathing our last breath.

Great Bible scholars also say that man is a spirit, he lives in a body and he has a soul. They also say that a spirit cannot die [I take it that only God can destroy a spirit]. Man's spirit is said to be his inner being, the highest part of his creation, the part which really reflects God's image and likeness. His body is easily defined: flesh, blood and bones, etc. His soul is said to be his mind, his emotion and his will.

Now when they say that upon death man's spirit meet the risen Christ, I believe that there is no judgement involved, just a meeting and greeting, whether you are saint or sinner. As Solomon says in the book of Ecclesiastes, upon death, "the spirit will return to God who gave it" (Ecc 12:7)

You bring up some good, interesting points. Maybe your views are right and mine are wrong. I am basically saying what my Bible notes say.

Then, too, we have to take into account what God Himself says, "My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts higher than your thoughts". (Isa 55: 8 - 9), which I believe means that it is impossible for mankind to fully understand why God does what He does as well as the way He thinks. Hope this helps.

Excuse me but did you say all
Here is the differance between your faith and mine. (I might be wrong) For you Christ is the same as the Creator. For me Christ is a child (creation) of the Creator.



Vicky, I will just answer this last part which am surprised you don't seem to know. As far as I know, Christ is both Creator and Lord, He said so Himself in the Gospels!

Its not a matter of my faith being different. It is what the word of God, the Bible says. You probably would not accept this particular point because its by the great St Paul.

Please see what it says about Christ having created all things, Col. 1: 15 - 16.

[QUOTE=Vicky]
Who created Satan? If it was the Creator that knows all (past, present and future) then the Creator knows what the Creator is doing and Satan serves the Creator's purpose. Everything exist because of the Creator. Because with out it being the Creators intent for it to exist it could not exist.
The Creator already knows the Creator dose not need an invatation. Or are you going to say the Creator does not know).
You might have seen proof of the spirit world but that is not proof of the intent of the Creator.

Vicky, why are you trying to complicate a simple statement. Cant you see that the "Ghost" statement had abolutely NOTHING to do with the Creator? Cant you see that I am saying that there was proof that I saw the ghost. There was proof because I saw it, the lady saw it and the man 120 feet ahead of us saw it!!! -- 3 persons saw it! How more straightforward can I get?

Also, since you seem to know so much about the Creator, pray , can you please tell me why, in the first few verses of Genesis chapter 6, the Creator said He was sorry that he made man?

Can you please tell me why, when the Creator saw the children of Israel committing a "great" sin by worshiping a golden calf and He wanted to destroy them all, Why did he let Moses talk Him out of destroying them all?

Can you please tell me why did the Creator allow a righteous man Job to go through all that suffering?

I could go on and on. But maybe, 'cause you seem to know so much about the Creator, you are able to give me a sensible answer to these queries that I myself don't know!