what are you talking about here? We aren't discussing same sex marriage on this thread Vicky.

Ok correction
Where did disobedience come from.

Did I say anything about same sex marriage??? please read your post #12

Ok correction
Where did disobedience come from.


disobedience comes from independant will, the disobedience I spoke of specifically came from Adam, following Eve, who followed Satan in Genesis.

They could have just said no, if not Eve, then Adam. But they both disobeyed and we have been sinners and disobeying ever since.

but God loved us sinners and sent Jesus to be the Final sacrifice for our sins, so we no longer have to sacrifice lambs for forgiveness, just accept Jesus for who he says he is and who the old testament says he is and ask for forgiveness. But being a christian entails more than just that.

but I am straying now.

disobedience comes from independant will, the disobedience I spoke of specifically came from Adam, following Eve, who followed Satan in Genesis. They could have just said no, if not Eve, then Adam. But they both disobeyed and we have been sinners and disobeying ever since.
We talked about this before on another thread but Adam and Eve could not have disobeyed. To disobey is evil. They hand no knowledge of good and evil until after they ate the fruit. It was then that their eyes were open. Don't forget the name of the tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. No doubt they did the wrong thing, but they are no culpable. If anyone is to blame it is God and the Devil. Adam and Eve just got caught up in the cross fire of their eternal battle.

but God loved us sinners and sent Jesus to be the Final sacrifice for our sins, so we no longer have to sacrifice lambs for forgiveness, just accept Jesus for who he says he is and who the old testament says he is and ask for forgiveness. But being a christian entails more than just that.
Christianity sometimes troubles me. It calls its followers disobedient, has an independent will (which you would think was a good thing.) All mankind is evil, and there is no good in them until they are Baptized. Even then they fall short. They can even "think" and sin. They are in a constant battle with sin, theirs and others! And if they get things wrong that can spend an eternity in hell. All the things that make us human, free will, independent will, and other things are called evil. It is an exhausting religion! :confused:

disobedience comes from independant will, the disobedience I spoke of specifically came from Adam, following Eve, who followed Satan in Genesis.
Who created Satan????
They could have just said no, if not Eve, then Adam. But they both disobeyed and we have been sinners and disobeying ever since.

but God loved us sinners and sent Jesus to be the Final sacrifice for our sins, so we no longer have to sacrifice lambs for forgiveness, just accept Jesus for who he says he is and who the old testament says he is and ask for forgiveness. But being a christian entails more than just that.

but I am straying now.

We talked about this before on another thread but Adam and Eve could not have disobeyed. To disobey is evil. They hand no knowledge of good and evil until after they ate the fruit. It was then that their eyes were open. Don't forget the name of the tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. No doubt they did the wrong thing, but they are no culpable. If anyone is to blame it is God and the Devil. Adam and Eve just got caught up in the cross fire of their eternal battle.

*Satan was an angel, he was not always evil. It was also Satan who deceived Eve into eating the fruit. A teenager may not be evil, but if you tell him to pick up a gun and shoot someone in the head - when his parents already told him many times not to play with guns, should the child not be punished? Should the person who persuaded him be punished but not the person who shot the gun?

Eve was persuaded, she was not evil, she was sinless, NOT incapable of sin, just sinless.

Jesus was tempted by the devil, why would the devil try to temp Jesus? Didn't the devil know who Jesus was? Why didn't Jesus follow him and sin as well?

and even if Eve was never warned about eating from the tree, Adam was warned, but he still went ahead and disobeyed too. If he was incapable of free will and sinning, he would have acted like a robot and said no I am not allowed to eat from that tree.

they had no knowledge of good and evil, true, but he did have knowledge/warning about eating from that tree, and chose to disobey.

---

Christianity sometimes troubles me. It calls its followers disobedient, has an independent will (which you would think was a good thing.) All mankind is evil, and there is no good in them until they are Baptized.

*baptism does not save, or make you good. Jesus saved the criminal on the cross by faith alone - not by baptism. Baptism is mandatory for Catholics, not christians.

Even then they fall short. They can even "think" and sin. They are in a constant battle with sin, theirs and others!

*when you get saved, you are given the ability to be saved and forgiven of your sins, you pray for forgiveness when you fall into sin and you keep working at being a better person, with the guidance of the Holy Ghost that points out your weaknesses. You don't become a robot without a free will and you don't become perfect. christians are saved by faith and grace, and are to live by faith and good works.

And if they get things wrong that can spend an eternity in hell.

*as far as I have researched, hell is not eternal punishment as in burning forever, it is eternal separation from God, you are completely destroyed - no spirit or soul remains - erased. Burning in hell is not something that will happen forever. Of course I could be wrong, but my study of the word does not indicate eternal punishment, just eternal separation by a complete death.

All the things that make us human, free will, independent will, and other things are called evil.


*all things that make us human does not make us evil. We are not evil by nature, we are sinners by nature because we were born already a sinner. You have to choose to do evil. It is the desires of the flesh to do evil - rape, murder, stealing, etc. but our freewill allows us the ability to choose.

However, living a perfect life will not save you.

and with regard to reincarnation, if you have good karma, and die, and are born all over again as a baby - you don't remember your 'former life' and may just end up a christian or maybe even a satanist in your new life. So I really can't see how reincarnation can help you in your next life when you can't even tell if you were alive previously.
:confused:

Who created Satan????


There is only one creator.

He did not create Satan, he created an angel.

This angel was the most beatiful being.
He was also the smartest/wisest being.
And he was an unmatched musician.

Hiss abilities went to his head so to speak, and he conspired
to exalt himself above God, and used his smartness to persuade
a third of God's angels to follow him.

Satan made himself into Satan, God did not make him that way.

And you look real hard - you will see that Satan uses his same
3 abilities to deceive mankind today.

Vanity, Music and Knowledge.

Almost all sins committed in this world can be listed or traced back to one of the above 3 concepts.

Thanks for your reply.

...Satan was an angel, he was not always evil. It was also Satan who deceived Eve into eating the fruit. A teenager may not be evil, but if you tell him to pick up a gun and shoot someone in the head - when his parents already told him many times not to play with guns, should the child not be punished? Should the person who persuaded him be punished but not the person who shot the gun?
Eve was persuaded, she was not evil, she was sinless, NOT incapable of sin, just sinless.
Sin is evil! You can't have one without the other.

Jesus was tempted by the devil, why would the devil try to temp Jesus? Didn't the devil know who Jesus was? Why didn't Jesus follow him and sin as well?
Because Jesus chose not to. Jesus had free will.

and even if Eve was never warned about eating from the tree, Adam was warned, but he still went ahead and disobeyed too. If he was incapable of free will and sinning, he would have acted like a robot and said no I am not allowed to eat from that tree. They had no knowledge of good and evil, true, but he did have knowledge/warning about eating from that tree, and chose to disobey.
Perhaps, but they should not have been held accountable for it. They had no experience of such choices. They could not have really understood evil until they ate from the tree of the same name.

They certainly should not have been punished so harshly - a punishment that is visited on everyone, even those who had no hand in it. However, I see the need for you to believe as you do because if there was no fall there is no need of a Savior. The very core of the faith collapses without a fall.

baptism does not save, or make you good. Jesus saved the criminal on the cross by faith alone - not by baptism. Baptism is mandatory for Catholics, not christians.
Catholics are Christians too! I guess you belong to a group that does not accept the Catholic as a fellow believer.

There is such a thing as Baptism by desire or intent. If one was on the way to be Baptized and was killed in a car crash he would be considered Baptized by intent. He never got it but his intent was to get it. The thief on the cross could not have been baptized, circumstances did not allow it. His might have been a Baptism of desire.

Baptism is mentioned 50 times in the New Testament. One of the times it says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." It is true that belief is imports, but so is Baptism!. Even Jesus was baptized.

when you get saved, you are given the ability to be saved and forgiven of your sins, you pray for forgiveness when you fall into sin and you keep working at being a better person, with the guidance of the Holy Ghost that points out your weaknesses. You don't become a robot without a free will and you don't become perfect. christians are saved by faith and grace, and are to live by faith and good works.
Ok. I'll concede that point.

as far as I have researched, hell is not eternal punishment as in burning forever, it is eternal separation from God, you are completely destroyed - no spirit or soul remains - erased. Burning in hell is not something that will happen forever. Of course I could be wrong, but my study of the word does not indicate eternal punishment, just eternal separation by a complete death.
I guess it depends on the denomination, but most of Christendom believes that there is a hell, fire and all! I would tend to agree with you but we are in the minority there.

all things that make us human does not make us evil.
Oh, yes they do (according to the Christian.) There is no good thing in us. The Book of Romans tells us "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
Again, as a Buddhist, I would agree with you.

and with regard to reincarnation, if you have good karma, and die, and are born all over again as a baby - you don't remember your 'former life' and may just end up a christian or maybe even a satanist in your new life. So I really can't see how reincarnation can help you in your next life when you can't even tell if you were alive previously.
Who says you can't remember? Maybe you can't, maybe I can't, but I have met people who say they can. On the other hand, can you remember everything you did in this life? Perhaps not, but it has gone into shaping whom you are now. Just as this life will shape the next.

P.S. Being reborn a moral Christian is not such a bad thing! As we all have the Buddha nature in us already, any good religion can be beneficial. They worst that could happen is that you were born again into a better life to have another shot at opening your Buddha nature. I know of a number of Christians who have achieved this enlightenment. :angel:

On the eternal burning in hell this page does some explaining:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-grace/hell-fire.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/hell.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/hades.html

There is only one creator.

He did not create Satan, he created an angel.
So you are saying the Creator is in capable of Creating what the creator wants. Of is it the Creator knows what the Creator wants and we are just guessing.
According to your view the Creator can only make mistakes.
Or is man who is mistaken?

So far on Bahamas issues you have said (if I am mistaken please correct me)
The Creator does not know the future
And the creator does not or can't create perfection???

This angel was the most beatiful being.
He was also the smartest/wisest being.
And he was an unmatched musician.

Hiss abilities went to his head so to speak, and he conspired
to exalt himself above God, and used his smartness to persuade
a third of God's angels to follow him.

Satan made himself into Satan, God did not make him that way.

And you look real hard - you will see that Satan uses his same
3 abilities to deceive mankind today.

Vanity, Music and Knowledge.
Sunday go to meeting clothes did you ever check out those fancy hats?? Oh and those church choirs man some sound so good. And you ever wonder why a preacher has to go to school to speak for the Creator. HHHm the Creator must be powerless if the Creator can't put the knowledge you need in your head.
Almost all sins committed in this world can be listed or traced back to one of the above 3 concepts.

QUOTE=>CG ...

Because Jesus chose not to. Jesus had free will.
*we all have free will, we just don't always use it for good.

They certainly should not have been punished so harshly - a punishment that is visited on everyone, even those who had no hand in it. However, I see the need for you to believe as you do because if there was no fall there is no need of a Savior. The very core of the faith collapses without a fall.

*well if you really think about it, they were already promised children. So if he had just killed them, they would not have been able to have children. I can't say that I think the punishment is just, but we really don't know how bad the sin of eating the forbidden fruit really was, and whether the punishment may really be fair.

Catholics are Christians too! I guess you belong to a group that does not accept the Catholic as a fellow believer.

*catholics are christians but they practice many things forbidden by the bible.
example: praying to Mary - Mary is not alive, so they are praying to the dead.

There is such a thing as Baptism by desire or intent. If one was on the way to be Baptized and was killed in a car crash he would be considered Baptized by intent. He never got it but his intent was to get it. The thief on the cross could not have been baptized, circumstances did not allow it. His might have been a Baptism of desire.

Baptism is mentioned 50 times in the New Testament. One of the times it says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." It is true that belief is imports, but so is Baptism!. Even Jesus was baptized.

*I agree it is important, I am baptized, but catholics say that in order to be saved you MUST be baptized AND participate in communion. They also beleive that you must confess to your priest/pastor - Jesus showed us how to pray for forgiveness.


I guess it depends on the denomination, but most of Christendom believes that there is a hell, fire and all! I would tend to agree with you but we are in the minority there.

*The evil will be burnt as far as I know, but it will happen once, not forever. Whether or not, if you beleive in hell, then you should be saved. If you beleive in satan, you should be saved, if you beleive in christ you be saved.
you really can't accept one aspect of christianity and deny the rest.


Who says you can't remember? Maybe you can't, maybe I can't, but I have met people who say they can. On the other hand, can you remember everything you did in this life? Perhaps not, but it has gone into shaping whom you are now. Just as this life will shape the next.

Ecclesiastes 9
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

P.S. Being reborn a moral Christian is not such a bad thing! As we all have the Buddha nature in us already, any good religion can be beneficial. They worst that could happen is that you were born again into a better life to have another shot at opening your Buddha nature. I know of a number of Christians who have achieved this enlightenment. :angel:

*or rather the christ nature in us, since he was here here in the beginning, if you bleieve in the bible


I don't think buddhism is a bad religion at all, in terms of loving your fellowman. But some of the beliefs of buddhism contradict the bible.
As I understand it you continue in a cycle or rebirth. But people aren't
able to recall their former life, because their is no former life. Besides the chances of you becoming a buddhist again in another life is slim unless you are born into a buddhist community, i.e. if you are born in Haiti, you may end up practicing voodoo, etc.

I honestly can't see you building up all this good karma, then being reborn into a better life not even remembering that you have to keep working on your karma.

Besides how is it that every part of the world seems to hate the same ideals presented in the 10 commandments regardless of religion if it is not innate?

*catholics are christians but they practice many things forbidden by the bible.
But you said they were not! However, Catholics believe that Protestants are practicing wrong things too! It would be better to say that each are seeking the "path" as they see it but that is not how it is seen by most Christians.

I agree it is important, I am baptized, but catholics say that in order to be saved you MUST be baptized AND participate in communion. They also beleive that you must confess to your priest/pastor - Jesus showed us how to pray for forgiveness.
And how to be baptized! But I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this. Why, even Christians can't agree among themselves! ;) But Jesus did say, ""I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit."

The evil will be burnt as far as I know, but it will happen once, not forever. Whether or not, if you beleive in hell, then you should be saved. If you beleive in satan, you should be saved, if you beleive in christ you be saved. you really can't accept one aspect of christianity and deny the rest.
People do it all the time! Granted, they should not, but they do.

or rather the christ nature in us, since he was here here in the beginning, if you bleieve in the bible.
Christ nature, Buddha nature, two similar things but the Christ nature has to be "put" in one by the Holy Spirit. One is born with the Buddha nature.

I don't think buddhism is a bad religion at all, in terms of loving your fellowman. But some of the beliefs of buddhism contradict the bible.
The Bible contradicts the Buddhist writings, so? Are you one of those Christian that believes the Bible is the only Spiritual book?

As I understand it you continue in a cycle or rebirth.
Partly so. One is reborn until one has achieved awakening, enlightenment, or understands ones true Buddha nature (and here is the hard part for the Christian to understand.) Once a person has achieved that he is no longer reborn but dissolves into the universe in a state called Nirvana, a place, or state of complete bliss. Some Buddhists believe that once this state is achieved one is extinguished and is no more. I am not sure I like that! But we will have to wait until the end to find out who is right!

But people aren'table to recall their former life, because their is no former life. Besides the chances of you becoming a buddhist again in another life is slim unless you are born into a buddhist community, i.e. if you are born in Haiti, you may end up practicing voodoo, etc.
Not a slim as one would think. Buddhism is one of the fastest grown religions in the world, or at least in the West. And as I said, one does not have to be born a Buddhist again. There are some Buddhist who say that being born non-Buddhits might be because of ones bad Karma in a past life, a kind of punishment! I don't agree, we can still work on our awakening in or outside any religion. I was not born Buddhist, but I found my way back.

Besides how is it that every part of the world seems to hate the same ideals presented in the 10 commandments regardless of religion if it is not innate?
I don't think everyone hates the ideals! I think most people agree with them and see them as good ideals. The ideas are old and found in many religions. The problem is we can't always live up to them.

sorry I meant to say agrees with the 10 commandments, and hates as in has a prescribed punishment, for breaking the 10 commandments.

murder, stealing, adultery is punished, sometimes harshly, in almost every part of the world.

almost all religions can be traced back to some of the 10 commandments, even though many religions have more than one God, or none at all.

catholics have their own version of the bible, and break many of the rules:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r010.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r011.html

many people criticise christianity because of the silly things that many christians do, but very often the things that they did were not biblical in the first place. Too many christians do not read their bibles and are led astray by greedy pastors - some pastors don't even read more than 5 verses from the bible in their church services.

In my opinion the churches are becoming to institutionalized, and moving away from the bible, and are making christianity seem undesirable too many.

I don't attend church for this very reason. I don't like the way many churches especially Bahamian churches present the bible. They don't preach the gospel, but always talking about tithing, and often take up multiple tithe offerings.

You don't need church to be saved, and in my opinion, a lot of churches lead people away from the Lord by preaching the wrong things, and often from the preachers head, not from the bible.

sorry I meant to say agrees with the 10 commandments, and hates as in has a prescribed punishment, for breaking the 10 commandments.

murder, stealing, adultery is punished, sometimes harshly, in almost every part of the world.

almost all religions can be traced back to some of the 10 commandments, even though many religions have more than one God, or none at all.
As I read the Ten Commandments, I see only one that has a punishment, "punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me."

Many religions have a Ten Commandments type thing. In order for a civilization to survive one has to stop those things that damage it, murder, stealing, adultery all can destroy a society. In the past, religion was the government, the moral teacher, the glue that kept the society together. So it is no wonder that these commandments should be sanctioned by the god(s). After all a government can't watch everyone but if people believe there is an all seeing eye in the sky that sees everything - so much the better for the governments.

I do not agree that almost all religions can be traced back to some of the 10 commandments. It might be the case that the ten commandments can be traced to other religions too! Any group of peoples must have rules to keep. Some of the Commandments might well have been adaptations of rules that were followed well before there was a Bible.

catholics have their own version of the bible, and break many of the rules:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r010.html
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r011.html
Catholics would, and indeed do say, that Protestants have their own version of the Bible and break the rules.

many people criticise christianity because of the silly things that many christians do, but very often the things that they did were not biblical in the first place. Too many christians do not read their bibles and are led astray by greedy pastors - some pastors don't even read more than 5 verses from the bible in their church services.

In my opinion the churches are becoming to institutionalized, and moving away from the bible, and are making christianity seem undesirable too many.

I don't attend church for this very reason. I don't like the way many churches especially Bahamian churches present the bible. They don't preach the gospel, but always talking about tithing, and often take up multiple tithe offerings.

You don't need church to be saved, and in my opinion, a lot of churches lead people away from the Lord by preaching the wrong things, and often from the preachers head, not from the bible.

I hear you on all that!

So you are saying the Creator is in capable of Creating what the creator wants. Of is it the Creator knows what the Creator wants and we are just guessing.
According to your view the Creator can only make mistakes.
Or is man who is mistaken?

So far on Bahamas issues you have said (if I am mistaken please correct me)
The Creator does not know the future
And the creator does not or can't create perfection???

Sunday go to meeting clothes did you ever check out those fancy hats?? Oh and those church choirs man some sound so good. And you ever wonder why a preacher has to go to school to speak for the Creator. HHHm the Creator must be powerless if the Creator can't put the knowledge you need in your head.



what happened bsm no responce??

to CG ...

I said the 10 commandments must be innate, because every culture tends to hate persons that break at least the last 6 which pertain to love for each other. Most society punishes people for breaking the last 6.

also under moses's law all of the 10 commandments were punished very heavily - a few were even punished with death.