I was responding to this post:

Originally posted by Henry
For all those concerned,

Spend a few minutes and Net research (or ask around) what ever happened to the relationship between Dr. Bynum and T.D. Jakes (who introduced her to the world with his Woman Thou Art Loose Conferences). I think your findings will be quite comparable to what the Bahamas is afraid of.

I'm sorry for writing this and hope God doesn't hold it against me. :confused:

Dear ones,
I can see this thread going on for some time as many people Christians included do get upset whenever money is mentioned.
Just a quick note to anointdsongbird --who said "God would not allow his lambs to be slaughtered" God did allow 6 million of His covenant lambs to be slaughtered in Nazi germany a mere 60+ years ago.
Here we are talking not only about very large sums of money going to many visiting speakers, but mainly about the methods used to extract this money: the promises of a big harvest for a big seed; the concept of "sowing into the anointing"; the concept of expecting God to "pay you back" for giving to His work! One of the problems I have is the whole idea of giving in order to get. If you are giving with a sincere heart to bless the man or woman of God or the particular work--the last thing on your sanctified mind is What am I going to get in return? To me the whole thing is like a lottery, and this is not honoring to the Lord.
Ask yourself--Why the coercion? Why is it necessary to whip people up into a frenzy so they can run up to the altar with their offerings? Would the offering be as generous if taken up at a quieter time in the service? I think not.
Frankly I don't mind if the people want to give a million dollars if they have it. What bothers me is the arrangements made BEFORE the meetings where one has to guarantee a certain % of the offering, a certain type of hotel, a limousine to ride in --the requests/demands will amaze you! THIS is not scriptural.
The average Christian niether knows nor cares about these things
and I say "God bless you" But some are called to Blow the trumpet in Zion (the church) Sound the alarm. Some are called to Show Judah her transgressions. This is what this is all about. Don't try to muzzle the prophets.please!!

Loving the church with all her faults, and trying to help the Bride get ready.

Bless you all,
ecclesia

Anointdsongbird:

Thanks so much for sharing in the discussion. I hear your heart and your concerns. I understand. My friend, I love Christ's church. Since these issues have come to my attention, my head has been a bucket of tears.

Dealing with it has been no light matter, but I can assure you that in word, deed and spirit, I have tried to represent the integrity of God's Word, it's principles and practices.

I read your posts and saw 5 main points in them. If I have overlooked any, please let me know. Here now is my reply.

1.Don't Judge others

Every time the command is given as it relates to the relationship between brothers and sisters in Christ, it is speaking about being judgemental or passing judgement on someone in an area that Scripture does not address or where there is the liberty of conscience. We are actually commanded to judge one another. The Romans 14 passage you quoted relates to eating meat or vegetables, observing the Sabbath or not, drinking wine or not....but it is not referring to judging as it relates to sin. Think about it, if we can never judge, then we all become a law unto ourselves.

We are to be our brother’s keeper and when we see each other in sin, we search our own lives to ensure that we take any logs out and then we go to our brother in humility and show him the error of his way.

I don't know if you are aware of the situation of the man in sin in 1st Corinthians 5. Paul commanded that he be judged. He concluded it with this bottom line principle.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Whenever anyone judges, he would be a fool to judge in a way that he does not want to be judged. Why? Simply because you reap what you sow.

Here is what I stated at the press conference:

This public statement follows weeks of prayer, personal reflection and Godly counsel from many individuals at home and abroad. It also follows reasonable and gracious due process that was given to ALL of the parties whose names are mentioned. It is the same kind of due process that I would wish for if ever anyone had concerns about me and/or my personal ministry or the congregation that I am privileged to lead and serve.

So friend, your point of judgement is not applicable here.


2. Don’t correct brothers/sisters publicly

This one will be brief. First of all, as indicated in the extract from the press release above, gracious due process was given to ALL persons, including Dr. Bynum. She did not even extend common courtesy of acknowledging receipt of my letter. In my view, the fact that she did not write back displayed arrogance.

In Galatians Chapter 2, Paul publicly rebuked and corrected Peter’s error of playing the Jew/Gentile division game.

Have you ever read this passage?

1 Tim 5:19-20
19 Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. NIV

Friend God is not paranoid about us having to publicly correct, so He will not be paranoid by those who refuse to repent privately.

3. Persecution for Righteousness sake

Again, this one is brief. This is not about persecution and definitely not about righteousness. What is righteous about requiring 50% of offerings that you get to raise before you agree to speak to God’s people? What is righteous about telling people what amounts to give, knowing full well that 50 cents of every dollar is yours? What is righteous about standing before people and telling them to live by faith and you refuse to do so…so much so that you try to earn from one speaking engagement what some people will never make in 10 years. Friend, there is nothing righteous about these things. People who do this are false ministers of Christ….not my words, I borrowed them from Apostle Paul (2nd Corinthians 11:13)

People who have pre-conditions to speak to God’s people are not Christ’s servants…they are their own servants. If they are His servant, they would be open to being like Phillip who was sent to preach to one man and obeyed and did not charge him an offering.

If we are Christ’s we obey and serve Him…we go where He wants us to go and He has a right to tell us to do it for free.

4. Don’t Worry About it…God will not let the sincere be slaughtered!

Think about your suggestion. If it is true, then we don’t need to do anything…just leave everything up to God.

For example, consider false teachers in the Body of Christ. Do you think the people who believe and follow them are insincere? Absolutely not…those people are as sincere as anyone who is walking in the truth. Yet still they are misled and God permits it.

Friend we have a role to play in this…we are labourers together with God. False ministers who exploit God’s people would love us to take the attitude you are suggesting. But we stand on Christ’s side working with Him and we will expose them, considering ourselves lest we become ensnared by pride and judgementalism.

5. She has been a blessing to me

There are two main dangers here. First of all you are making an assumption that whatever blessing you Got was from God. Not matter how strongly you feel about it, you cannot be sure. Consider this:

2 Cor 11:14-15
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

The second danger with this statement is that you are using your personal experience to try to validate a practice and someone whose displayed fruit is inconsistent with the Word of God, contrary to the Spirit of Christ and opposite to the way of the Kingdom of God. These people know that what they are doing is wrong…but they have been overcome by greed and manipulation.

When challenged to support the Biblical basis for the outlandish things they do, they show no repentance and do not even an attempt give Scriptural support. That my friend is sheer arrogance!

Friend, you are holding on to your personal experience and defying the clear teaching of God’s word. I encourage you to submit your experience to the test of God’s Word. I don’t know your experience. Maybe God in his Sovereignty blessed you in spite of the selfishness and falsity behind the hired “gift”. My advice is to thank God for his mercy in blessing you and see this lady for who she is…a hired motivational speaker. In times of ignorance God winked but NOW he calls all of us to repent.

Read 2nd Corinthians 11 and 12 and see the quality of selfless sacrificial leadership the church was built on. Read Hebrews 11 and see the “company of witnesses” who are cheering us on. They weep over these greedy “preachers for hire” who put on spiritual trade shows selling their God given gift to the highest bidder. We should weep too.

Don’t fall into the trap of the Corinthian Church. They were mesmerized by “super celebrity preachers” so they could never see these people’s sins. But Paul exposed them (2nd Corinthians 11 and 12).

I conclude by saying that there is one thing that you said that was a window to your heart and I can see that you are sincere. You said that you are praying for God’s will to be done. It will be done. Unfortunately, so many people give cult like allegiance to “preachers for hire” and they pray against those who expose them.

Most importantly, your prayer, my friend, is a wise one. You want God’s will to be done…and let the chips fall where they may. To that I say amen. I will be praying for you that God will help you to discern the truth…whether it is what I’m saying or what you have experienced with Dr. Bynum and “preachers for hire”.

I trust that I addressed the main issues you raised. If not please let me know and I will.

Kingdom blessings!

Bishop Neil Ellis, in a report aired on 102.9 yesterday Feb17, emphatically denied
being involved in any previous or current pre-arranged financial agreement with any Speaker that his ministry has brought in.

Bishop Samuel Greene,also during the same airing, stated that he would not dignify these concerns with a response and he accused Apostle Moss or being a " renegade"- defined in the dictionary as a person who abandons one religion for another; a traitor.

Also,ZNS TV13 aired segments of a press conference last evening, where both Bishop Ellis and Bishop Greene were present
from which Bishop Ellis made remarks that one of the major benefits of this upcomming revival is the great economic gain that the country stands to receive hence impacting the concept of "christian Tourism".

Glaringly,It is all about money!!!!During one of the more famous historical revivals, the Welsh revival, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit was so great that businesses[bars] actually closed Down during this revival. My Point-- More people came to the Lord and less economic gain came to that country. What is beginning to unfold is that there will be more economic gain and less people actually coming to the Lord.

KAP

The Silence of the Bishops continue. Bishop Ellis did not answer the question of how much money Dr. Bynum is to get.

T.Max

:angel:

After reading your post in its entirety on Revival Is Here and on the issues of Church Exploitation Exposed I am convinced that you are a God-sent.

Apostle Moss you gave the biblical requirements and signs for REVIVAL; let me show everyone the OXFORD DICTIONARY'S definition:

1. Reviving, being revived.
2. Something brought back into use or fashion.
3. A reawakening of interest in religion
4. A special effort with meetings, etc to promote this.

So we see from the biblical that revival is coming and not here. From the natural account what is being revived, brought back into use or fashion, what is going to be reawakened at Clifford Park, we do realize that it will be a special meeting to promote something...but what.

I read with interest the article in the Nassau Guardian this morning. Bishops Neil nor Greene addressed the concerns put forward by Apostle Cedric Moss.

When we respond to letters or questions in the newspapers we must address the facts or the questions at hand.

If I am wrong I stand to be corrected. Apostle Cedric never said she (Bynum-Weeks) received $25,000 and $125,000 plus 50% of the offering on her previous visits. It was brought to his attention that due to prearranged agreements she was alleged to have received on two separate occasions the aforementioned sums. The prearranged agreement being 50% of the offerings received which amounted to the two mentioned sums of monies.

If I understand Apostle Cedric Moss clearly...he is trying to sensitize leaders to the cunning practice of some of "God's Preachers" of the day. I can speak on the subject because in my church we have gone through it and hence we are very much aware of how it is done.

Even now in most of the Full Gospel Churches of size the Bishops or Senior Pastor's do not receive salaries because if the congregations take up offerings every now (more now than again) and again they receive much more than if they were to take a regular salary. Hence we now have Church Celebrities, millionaires. Yes it is being done. No one is trying to say that men and women of God cannot have large homes, luxury cars, good salaries but should it be at the expense of SHEEP (unsuspecting congregations) who need financial training themselves.

So Bishop Neil relax you and I both know how the speakers go when they come in and what they require. Could you imaging preaching (which takes a lot of energy, and study time) for 2 - 3 hours and receiving $25, 000. You could very well take two engagements a month and chill for the rest of the year. The question is how come then you will not pay the Shirley Burrows', or the Clifford Smith's of the Bahamas that kind of money. Only the foreigners?

Another question Bishops Ellis and Greene had sufficient chance and time to respond to the much publicized letters sent to them months ago, why now? Additionally in what capacity is Bishop Greene appearing alongside Bishop Ellis. President of Christian Counsel or Bishop in the Full Gospel Association?

We thank God for the Religious Tourism. However, do not cloud the issue. Apostle Moss never said anything about not hosting meetings, seminars, conventions etc. The question was and still is “the rape of God’s people by foreigners wanting huge sums for preaching the free word of God.” Bishop Neil your motives must be clear...watch out God is the Big Gun not you.

The question still is Bishops Ellis and Green what is the amount of monies being given to Mrs. Bynum-Weeks? You did not touch it in your article today. Remember the Bahamian people are wiser now.

Many innuendoes are flying around concerning the meetings. The Bahamian people (including church leaders) will be shocked when the bleacher are erected for the "REVIVAL" meetings, the government is silent on the school being let out early issue as well, Why? Nikki Kelley asked our Prime are you a Politician or Preacher? The Bahamian people need answers.

AS THE APOSTLE SAID ON ISSUES OF THE DAY THIS MORNING; REVIVAL IS NOT HERE THERE IS A SHAKING GOING ON AND THEN AFTER THE SHAKING THE REVIVAL WILL COME AND THE MASSES WILL KNOW BY THE SPIRIT NOT BY PROCLAMATION.

:angel:

I am new to this page but after reading a lot of comments from some of you I wonder without degrading you if you have ever read any of the teaching of Jesus from the Bible.

When He spoke of snakes, brood of vipers, white sepulcres and unrepenting generation He was referring to the church of the day, the Sanhedrin, the High Priest etc.

When He ran the people out of the temple they were the church folk of the day.

Who crucified Jesus? The church folk (spearheaded the whole affair).

Whe was Jesus referring to when He asked will He find faith when He returns?

Get real people we have been hiding too many things in the church for too long and the word say quite clearly, what we do in the dark will come to the light.

To anointed song bird and others who seem to be the defense lawers for God, Bishop Ellis, Bishop Green and Prophetess Bynum-Weeks take note of this last statement:

The word of God say we are to judge others by their fruit. The question still is why so many foreigners are raping God's people. The question never arose about the spiritual deposits they make becasue that is not the dispute. Why should we have to pay someone 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 000 dollars to share the word of God?

We are straying from the written word of God.

Shekinahmichael:

Well put!

You are correct: The refutation attributed to Bishop Ellis in The Guardian (February 18, 2003) is NOT what anyone has said. Besides, Bishop Ellis did not host Dr. Bynum on the $25,000 and $125,000 occasions being referred to.

He would have to tell us how much he paid her in October 2002 in the offering she got (not honorarium as stated in the paper). I've heard an outlandish amount but the person who told me is not close to the source.

Time might tell....so we wait.

My heart ache! What is going on, there are some many voices Lord, Help Us All.

Confusion, Confusion...

But Lord we need Revival...

Bahamas We Need To Return To Our First Love!

In all that is going on, God will be have the final say.

Is there a spell cast over this nation...

Confusion, Confusion...

But Jahovah God is not a god of Confusion.

It pains me so much.

I will not quote scripture because they have all been quoted...But Lord we need a REVIVAL...

Help us Lord,

Forgive us Lord, for we are far from you.

We have turn are backs on You...yet you still love us.

Agree that revival is not here, thus is website...But we need Revival!

Will this site bring Revival, What can we do...


REPENT, REPENT, REPENT,

Repent and stop be a religious people, being lead by religious Leaders...

Return to God, and be lead by His Spirit...

We are to blame for what is happening in this country for we have bow to these religious leaders and made them gods in our midst.

Pledge to serve and worship God and Him alone.

Seek God for yourselves...for the Bible declare that you will find Him if you seek Him with all of your heart.

STOP! Stop the exchanges that you are having with each other...
Cry out to God,

Seek God Face, Pray, Turn Away...Than Revival Will Come...
Because Gods promises are yeah and Amen.

Lord Help All Of Us...Send a Revival Lord and Let It Begin With Me...

Heavenly Father,
Forgive me, for I have sinned. I have not done what you accepted me to do. I have not glorified you in everything that I have done. I have not been sincere in my walk and my relationship. Lord, I Confess...forgive me Lord and revive my relationship with you. In Jesus' name.


Mr. Cedric Moss and All My Father's Children,

Remember...A Kingdom Devided Cannot Stand..

Lord Let Your Kingdom come, Your Will be done in the Bahamas!

dacy2003:

I hear your heart! I understand...my head is a bucket of tears!

Let me encourage you. Christ's body is no more divided by this issue being in the open than if it was private. The only difference is our pride is affected because we don't like the world to see our divisions. Well reality is reality, whether they know or not.

What I've understood is that we need to be the same in public and private and not be duplicitious.

Since Cain and Abel, there have always been two parallel seeds in the earth...one true and the other false. Today, we are seeing a modern House of Saul and House of David division. People belong to both houses based on their heart and character.

These two houses will never be one. People may leave from one to the other but the line of division is clear.

The House of Saul is very concerned about what the world thinks.

The House of David is only concerned with what the Lord thinks.

So relax, God is sovereign over this and lets not be hypocrites and pretend to be united when we are not....and in the case we are addressing, cannot be.

Mr. Moss...

Please do not misunderstand me...

You have gone to great lengths to point out and presented proof that revival is not here...

But we need Revival...

So what do you recommend we do...

In my foolishness I suggest that if Revival is not here, and we all agree we need revival, let us promote the guidelines in the Bible to provoke revival in our land.

Confess, Repent, Turn Away from Our Wicked Ways,

Let us not just be satisfied with just saying Revival is not Here...'Cause we need Revival!

Now you have presented the problem and you have gotten the attention of us all...what now...

We have all hear what you have to say and we know your stand...is that it ...where do you go from here Mr. Moss.

The state of Christianity in this country is sad, pathetic, and sickening. The "Christian Leaders" of this country make me want to puke my guts out.

WHO are any of you to judge who deserves money harvested from our nation's herd of mindless sheep? The answer is simple. NONE OF YOU.

Does it REALLY matter which of you hypocrits receive it? It's all for the good of God and spreading the word.. RIGHT? I'm sure. Surely money used purely for God's will should not cause such greed and apathy amongst fellow Christians.

While I'm on a rant, WHO the hell are you to DICTATE which movies can and can not be watched at PUBLIC, PRIVATELY owned theatres?

Stop trying to justify yourselves. What exactly is everyone trying to prove? I don't care if you're a child-molesting Catholic priest or a male-prostitute Baptist pastor. It's all for the money. Everyone knows already. All of your arguments are pointless.

God is watching.

:hot:

Druggy:

You seem to be dealing with multiple issues and I have not been able to get a sense of what it is exaclty that you are trying to say.

You used a hypocrite brush to paint everyone. That can't be right or fair.

I encourage you to join the discussion and not rant and rave. Maybe you do have some points that need to be considered. I encourage you to share them without hostility, especially if you are going to be anonymous.

I have put my name and photo on this site so that whatever I contribute is authentic. People do not have to guess about me.

I agree with your closing comment....God is indeed watching all of us. Further, he judges our hearts first, then our actions.

Druggy,

Please read the Forum Rules here: http://www.bahamasissues.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14 .
To others who have not yet read the the Forum rules as yet I would recommend that you do now before you post anything on this site.
There is to be no obscene or offensive languages made in this forum whatsoever by anyone.

Lets discuss these issues in a civilized and professional manner.

Thank you.

Webmaster.

Webmaster,

First of all, I completely agree with the point Druggy was trying to make. The state of affairs in the churches is ridiculous. If the church was a housepet, now would be the time to put it to sleep and get a new one.

What I find so very interesting though, is how you were so quick to post a "friendly reminder" to Druggy regarding the forum rules. Do his views scare you? Are you trying to discourage him from participating here by posting this FUD? His post does stand out from the brainwashed drivel posted by "God's Children" here, but that is no reason to consider it "obscene" or "offensive". Could you please do everyone a favor and clarify what it was in his post that violated the forum rules?

Thanks
A concerned forum reader. :bye: