i think you slightly missed the point there.

i think you slightly missed the point there.

Well you gotta take into consideration that people will discuss a topic/subject as it pertains to them. There are just as many opinions as there are faces. I believe Vicky discusses equality in context. As does bsmbahamas.
You and I, we live in this world together k.o.o.l.b.o.n.z.e.
We can never have equality (or be equal) if I choose to surrender my will to someone else, whereas you choose not to. And that's your choice and I respect your right to choose. You still have possession of what I have given away, right? Can we agree on that?
I think the issue here, is that MANY people who've surrendered their will to God are jealous of the use of Will that "pagans" have.
The name-calling of pagan, heathen, heretic all stem from this envy and wounded pride.
Boo Hoo, I gave my will to God and they ain't give theirs..sniff sniff...so unfair.
Kinda like the other son in that Prodigal Parable.

I have heard people say the mark is the computer. I feel like it may be a combination of the computer and television.

I think the television is used to spread propoganda and subtly influence the unsuspecting with its agendas. While the computers, or rather everything becoming computerized can bring any nation to a halt by a team of hackers within minutes right now.

Think about a nation being heavily reliant on computer networks e.g. traffic lights, medical records, criminal records, etc ... and a team of hackers or system administrators using built in backdoors to bring down all of the computers in a given city. What would happen if they then refuse to buy, sell or trade with that nation?

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?! Never mind that, if you feel that the computer is this so-called 'mark' then why are you using one? Essentially, you're saying that we should discard our computers or else we will go to Hell! Is that the message you're sending? While you're at it, I guess we should throw our TVs out - after all, we don't need to know what's going on in the world around us (might as well scrap the newspapers too, because they're filled with propaganda and hidden Satanic agendas).

CG and Vicky seem to already accept the idea that God is in us and not external. I don't think they believe the bible because it has been tampered with. However, for those that do, it said that we were created by God - therefore he had to exist before we were created - he may be in us, as he is omnipresent but I honestly beleive that he is an external 'being' for lack of a better word.

Once enough people are convinced that the world will be a better place without gods and religion, they will be removed and replaced by a one world government ... and we all know that man has yet to establish a government type that works.

I believe you're paranoid, bsm. You're so ready to jump on Vicky and CG because they happen to take a different perpective. Who exactly are you to say whether they are right or wrong? Whether it's the Bible, the Quran, or the Torah one reads (among the many books of faith), I think you're forgetting the basis of most religions is one fundamental idea - FAITH. Nothing etched in stone; just words in a book. No one, and i mean NO ONE can say for sure what is in store for us after we pass away. We can only have faith. You have every right to believe what you believe, and so do Vicky and CG; they have done nothing wrong, and they don't deserve to have their opinions and faiths questioned.

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?! Never mind that, if you feel that the computer is this so-called 'mark' then why are you using one? Essentially, you're saying that we should discard our computers or else we will go to Hell! Is that the message you're sending? While you're at it, I guess we should throw our TVs out - after all, we don't need to know what's going on in the world around us (might as well scrap the newspapers too, because they're filled with propaganda and hidden Satanic agendas).



What are you talking about? I am not saying that the tv or computer is the mark, I am saying that it can be used to support getting the mark out to the world. TV, Papers, web pages can assist by making the mark seem subtle or even desirable - I doubt they will say this is the mark - it will probably something that everyone would be made/influenced to want to have. Like how nobody cared about cell phones that much now everybody has one, one almost feels less-than-the-jones's without owning one. Friends and family even ask when you getting one? See what I mean, not THE mark, just for making it seem desirable to accept it.

With regard to computers, I was saying that nations can be excluded from the internet, important databases, etc by simply blocking their computer access or destroying the functionality of computers. If a country that is passing out 'the mark' had the ability to wipe out or block computers from nations that don't accept it - even just tv - a lot of people would say 'not my TV/PC, give me that mark, but don't take my TV away!

sounds far fetched but it could happen.


I believe you're paranoid, bsm. You're so ready to jump on Vicky and CG because they happen to take a different perpective. Who exactly are you to say whether they are right or wrong? Whether it's the Bible, the Quran, or the Torah one reads (among the many books of faith), I think you're forgetting the basis of most religions is one fundamental idea - FAITH. Nothing etched in stone; just words in a book. No one, and i mean NO ONE can say for sure what is in store for us after we pass away. We can only have faith. You have every right to believe what you believe, and so do Vicky and CG; they have done nothing wrong, and they don't deserve to have their opinions and faiths questioned.


I'm definitly not paranoid, and I am always telling Vicky she has the right to do as she pleases - even if it breaks our laws - it is called freewill. I don't look at anyone as a 'sinner' we all are, even the saved still sin.

Everyone is free to choose whatever religion they please, or non at all, if it suits them. However, like I tell vicky, it is not fair to say that religious groups should not advise the government on how to run a country. Any group can advise the government, but ultimately, it is the government that makes the laws.

Put another way - you can choose between 5 different lawyers for your court case, but ultimately - your lawyer/attorney is still mostly advicing the judge and jury on how they should vote.

I am a christian, by religion, and sure, I do get judgemental sometimes, but don't we all? Don't we all say things no matter how factual, others still find them silly or even paranoid?

Like you said it is all just belief/faith.

My belief isn't paranoid, and you probably just misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Certainly removing TVs and Computers, will be regarded as Taliban, and then will come radio, music, women being covered from head to toe, etc. That was definitly not my suggestion.

they pay tax to own a TV in the UK .... anyone heard of that ..?

NSABWI, thank you for your comments and support. However, I must take some small issue with something you said. "and so do Vicky and CG; they have done nothing wrong" Well, I agree but in the Christian eyes we have! Vicky's brand of Christianity does not fit the norm. History has shown that not fitting the norm is a dangerous place to be. Many great Christian thinkers have found themselves in the fire, literally, for not believing as they "should." Happily, these days, Christians are not allowed to burn people willy-nilly!

As for me. I am not a Christian at all! That has been a very dangerous place to be! Happily, not as dangerous, by a long chalk, as it used to be as the Government protects the freedom of religion. In the Christian eyes I am 100% wrong!

You went on to say, "and they don't deserve to have their opinions and faiths questioned." Sure we do! When someone puts their beliefs on the table they are open to questions. Yet, honest debate, honest questions, an honest back and forth can only be tools for mutual understanding - maybe even respect! I have learned a lot from Christians on this site - good things. I hope to learn more. I have also encountered the intolerance for which the Christian is so famous - and feared by those of other religions.

Again, thank you for your comments.

they pay tax to own a TV in the UK .... anyone heard of that ..?


Yes! I do! One has to pay a licence for every TV in your house, and a radio licence to (Or so it was at one time. Is that still true?)

There are people who go around in trucks looking for TV signals coming from homes and if they have you on the list for one TV and they get a signal that says you have two TV's on you can get a fine!

NSABWI, thank you for your comments and support. However, I must take some small issue with something you said. Well, I agree but in the Christian eyes we have! Vicky's brand of Christianity does not fit the norm. History has shown that not fitting the norm is a dangerous place to be. Many great Christian thinkers have found themselves in the fire, literally, for not believing as they "should." Happily, these days, Christians are not allowed to burn people willy-nilly!

As for me. I am not a Christian at all! That has been a very dangerous place to be! Happily, not as dangerous, by a long chalk, as it used to be as the Government protects the freedom of religion. In the Christian eyes I am 100% wrong!

You went on to say, Sure we do! When someone puts their beliefs on the table they are open to questions. Yet, honest debate, honest questions, an honest back and forth can only be tools for mutual understanding - maybe even respect! I have learned a lot from Christians on this site - good things. I hope to learn more. I have also encountered the intolerance for which the Christian is so famous - and feared by those of other religions.

Again, thank you for your comments.

Now I could be wrong, but I believe that one of the things (perhaps the main thing) which causes a conflict (for want of a better word) when Bsm talks to Vicky and yourself is when he lines up what youall say with the Word (the Bible), or at least his interpretation of the Bible. (I am NOT implying that his interpretation of the Bible is right or wrong!)

Say, for example, a topic is being discussed and you give your input based on your Buddhist knowledge or your vast knowledge of religions, well, I believe that it is possible that what you say might not always be in agreement with what the Bible says! Then again, it might be, but HIS interpretation of it may be a bit off. Another possibility could well be you know that a particular part of the Bible has been tampered with which causes the disagreement, but I or Bsm or another Christian might not know this or even believe it!...hope you understand what I am trying to say!

This is why I don't particularly like to get into long drawn-out discussions on religious matters -- there is too much room for misunderstanding. And you can find yourself nit-picking about all kinds of things which basically you agree on.

You say that in the Christian eyes you are 100% wrong. Maybe I am a different kind of Christian, 'cause I don't see how anyone can be 100% wrong or 100% anything!

When Bsm answered NSABWI, I really thought he was going to raise the point about trying to understand where you all (especially Vicky) were coming from compared to what the Bible says, NOT what Christianity or any other religion says!

One thing for sure, when you say that Vicky's brand of Christianity does not fit the norm, that is the truest statement I have ever heard. I can say that with confidence! (No offense, now!)

Hope you have not encountered too many intolerant Christians here. To me, there may be one who would say an intolerant word or two sometimes -- don't know that he can be called intolerant for that. Sometimes I see a few of them in church, but my thing is I just don't believe that Christians have the monopoly on intolerance. It is found in many persons and in all groups and organizations.

A true Christian should not have to be feared, as Christ Himself is not feared!

Now I could be wrong, but I believe that one of the things (perhaps the main thing) which causes a conflict (for want of a better word) when Bsm talks to Vicky and yourself is when he lines up what youall say with the Word (the Bible), or at least his interpretation of the Bible. (I am NOT implying that his interpretation of the Bible is right or wrong!)
Neither am I implying that and for my part I enjoy his posting, as I enjoy yours. It is just that I beseech BSM, you and other to do what I do, look, and look again. Religion is a vast subject. We can never say "I have got it!" All we can say is "I think I have got it, for now."

Say, for example, a topic is being discussed and you give your input based on your Buddhist knowledge or your vast knowledge of religions, well, I believe that it is possible that what you say might not always be in agreement with what the Bible says! Then again, it might be, but HIS interpretation of it may be a bit off. Another possibility could well be you know that a particular part of the Bible has been tampered with which causes the disagreement, but I or Bsm or another Christian might not know this or even believe it!...hope you understand what I am trying to say!
Yes, I do. Religions understanding changes, but the man in the pew may not always be aware of it. For years I sat in the pew. I thought I understood. But when I went to Seminary, a vast view of religion was opened to me. I thought, on a scale of 1 -10, my understanding was a 9. After Sem' training I found it was -10!

This is why I don't particularly like to get into long drawn -out dscussions on religious matters -- there is too much room for misunderstanding. And you can find yourself nit-picking about all kinds of things which basically you agree on.
This is true. We have more that unites us that divides us. We all suffer, we have pain, we all die, our loved ones die. When my Mother was dying. Christians, of all stripes, Buddhist and other faiths came to visit her and me. There was no talk of whom was right, or who was wrong. Comfort was given by all - and welcomed by all.

You say that in the Christian eyes you are 100% wrong. Maybe I am a different kind of Christian, 'cause I don't see how anyone can be 100% wrong or 100% anything!
Then you are different. Keep being so.

When Bsm answered NSABWI, I really thought he was going to raise the point about trying to understand where you all (especially Vicky) were coming from compared to what the Bible says, NOT what Christianity or any other religion says!
The Bible is opened to vastly different interpretations. Yet, I would venture to say that BSM's understanding, and indeed yours, has changed over the years - changed for the better and if you are both as wise as I believe you are, it will change again. Don't fear it, welcome it!

One thing for sure, when you say that Vicky's brand of Christianity does not fit the norm, that is the truest statement I have ever heard. I can say that with confidence! (No offense, now!)
I am sure Vicky takes no offence, but would proudly agree.

Hope you have not encountered too many intolerant Christians here. To me, there may be one who would say an intolerant word or two sometimes -- don't know that he can be called intolerant for that. Sometimes I see a few of them in church,
Yes, I have. It would shock you to hear of them. I have lost friends over it, but then again were they really friends?

but my thing is I just don't believe that Christians have the monopoly on intolerance. It is found in many persons and in all groups and organizations.
It is true that there are many people who are intolerant. Yet, the Christian faith is the only one I know where intolerance is part-and-parcel of the faith - when the faith is understood at a primitive level.

A true Christian should not have to be feared, as Christ Himself is not feared!
Oh! but some Christians often are! It is held by many that when the "Good News" is preached, there goes the neighborhood! They fear the intolerance of the faith. I wonder what is going wrong? I tell other religions that they have nothing to fear from Christianity, just some Christians! I remind them that there are Christians who have an open heart and intolerance is not in their understanding or nature. They see God as God and themselves as but unworthy followers - not in position to cast any stones. You are right, who should fear such a person?

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?! Never mind that, if you feel that the computer is this so-called 'mark' then why are you using one? Essentially, you're saying that we should discard our computers or else we will go to Hell! Is that the message you're sending? While you're at it, I guess we should throw our TVs out - after all, we don't need to know what's going on in the world around us (might as well scrap the newspapers too, because they're filled with propaganda and hidden Satanic agendas).



I believe you're paranoid, bsm. You're so ready to jump on Vicky and CG because they happen to take a different perpective. Who exactly are you to say whether they are right or wrong? Whether it's the Bible, the Quran, or the Torah one reads (among the many books of faith), I think you're forgetting the basis of most religions is one fundamental idea - FAITH. Nothing etched in stone; just words in a book. No one, and i mean NO ONE can say for sure what is in store for us after we pass away. We can only have faith. You have every right to believe what you believe, and so do Vicky and CG; they have done nothing wrong, and they don't deserve to have their opinions and faiths questioned.

Thanks for your comments. Let me help out just a tiny bit. I love it when people question my faith because it always make me look again. Many times I see where I came from. Sometimes when you look back it makes the path ahead a bit more clear.

What are you talking about? I am not saying that the tv or computer is the mark, I am saying that it can be used to support getting the mark out to the world. TV, Papers, web pages can assist by making the mark seem subtle or even desirable - I doubt they will say this is the mark - it will probably something that everyone would be made/influenced to want to have. Like how nobody cared about cell phones that much now everybody has one, one almost feels less-than-the-jones's without owning one. Friends and family even ask when you getting one? See what I mean, not THE mark, just for making it seem desirable to accept it.

With regard to computers, I was saying that nations can be excluded from the internet, important databases, etc by simply blocking their computer access or destroying the functionality of computers. If a country that is passing out 'the mark' had the ability to wipe out or block computers from nations that don't accept it - even just tv - a lot of people would say 'not my TV/PC, give me that mark, but don't take my TV away!

sounds far fetched but it could happen.



I'm definitly not paranoid, and I am always telling Vicky she has the right to do as she pleases - even if it breaks our laws - it is called freewill. I don't look at anyone as a 'sinner' we all are, even the saved still sin.

Everyone is free to choose whatever religion they please, or non at all, if it suits them. However, like I tell vicky, it is not fair to say that religious groups should not advise the government on how to run a country. Any group can advise the government, but ultimately, it is the government that makes the laws.

Put another way - you can choose between 5 different lawyers for your court case, but ultimately - your lawyer/attorney is still mostly advicing the judge and jury on how they should vote.

I am a christian, by religion, and sure, I do get judgemental sometimes, but don't we all? Don't we all say things no matter how factual, others still find them silly or even paranoid?

Like you said it is all just belief/faith.

My belief isn't paranoid, and you probably just misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Certainly removing TVs and Computers, will be regarded as Taliban, and then will come radio, music, women being covered from head to toe, etc. That was definitly not my suggestion.

BSM I can't leave this one alone it so hypocritical yet not. Look at the paragraphs I turned red. The Taliban forced their religious views into law. It was possible because they held the power in government they became the government. When a group (Christians) advise the government the group (Christians) are trying to get them to have laws and policies that suit their religion. The problem is not everyone is a follower of their religion. Thus the laws become unequal.
To me true Christians should stand for equality of law because just as they would not want the type intolerance and in-equality of laws the Taliban had forced on them they should not force their faith on others by laws.

Just a bit of thought.
Some say gambling is wrong and should be outlawed.
How would you feel if there was a law that said you had to gamble?
Some say same sex marriage is wrong.
How would you feel if the only legal marriage was a same sex marriage? (Marriage a word being as any form of legal union for love)
Some say to have the mark of the beast is wrong.
How will you feel if it were law?

The mark of the beast is the greatest form of intolerance and in-equality perceived by mankind. Yet Christ treated everyone equally.
Which is the example to follow. Same sex marriage (marriage a word being as any form of legal union for love) is not for me but I believe it is the individual’s choice to love and marry whom they choose.
So you Christians who love intolerance and in-equality please keep it. Keep it far away from my family and I please.

Have any of you noticed the tone of this thread how it has changed form all the other threads???
I see an agreement to disagree and we are all still equal tone.

thats nice I pray I am not wrong

BSM I can't leave this one alone it so hypocritical yet not. Look at the paragraphs I turned red. The Taliban forced their religious views into law. It was possible because they held the power in government they became the government. When a group (Christians) advise the government the group (Christians) are trying to get them to have laws and policies that suit their religion. The problem is not everyone is a follower of their religion. Thus the laws become unequal.
To me true Christians should stand for equality of law because just as they would not want the type intolerance and in-equality of laws the Taliban had forced on them they should not force their faith on others by laws.

Just a bit of thought.
Some say gambling is wrong and should be outlawed.
How would you feel if there was a law that said you had to gamble?
Some say same sex marriage is wrong.
How would you feel if the only legal marriage was a same sex marriage? (Marriage a word being as any form of legal union for love)
Some say to have the mark of the beast is wrong.
How will you feel if it were law?

The mark of the beast is the greatest form of intolerance and in-equality perceived by mankind. Yet Christ treated everyone equally.
Which is the example to follow. Same sex marriage (marriage a word being as any form of legal union for love) is not for me but I believe it is the individual’s choice to love and marry whom they choose.
So you Christians who love intolerance and in-equality please keep it. Keep it far away from my family and I please.

Vicky, just one little point which I believe you already know. Under your heading "Just a bit of thought", if all the things you mentioned are contrary to what the Bible says, then the Christian would just simply not obey them, to the extent of risking being thrown in jail or even his life!

If man's law was that you had to marry the same sex, then I guess the Christian would just had to, God forbid, "shack up" with the opposite sex, LOL, or "burn" as St Paul says.

But seriously, the Christian is instructed in the Bible (I think in the book of Acts) not to obey the law of the land if it is against God's laws.

Vicky, just one little point which I believe you already know. Under your heading "Just a bit of thought", if all the things you mentioned are contrary to what the Bible says, then the Christian would just simply not obey them, to the extent of risking being thrown in jail or even his life!
see below
If man's law was that you had to marry the same sex, then I guess the Christian would just had to, God forbid, "shack up" with the opposite sex, LOL, or "burn" as St Paul says.

Ok now you have shacked up with this woman for a few years (lets asy 10) you are in love with her and she you. She gets deathly ill and is in the hospital. You are told only next of kin can see her and you have no legel status to be at her side when you know she needs you.

HOW WOULD YOU FEEL????????????
HOW WOULD YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT LAW?????

But seriously, the Christian is instructed in the Bible (I think in the book of Acts) not to obey the law of the land if it is against God's laws.

I did not ask you what the Bible said I said how would you feel. Answer the questions stop skirting around them.

see below
Ok now you have shacked up with this woman for a few years (lets asy 10) you are in love with her and she you. She gets deathly ill and is in the hospital. You are told only next of kin can see her and you have no legel status to be at her side when you know she needs you.


I know what your saying ..thought thats not a law, just a hospital rule, which can be broken :tup: