Equality for all, without God ...

[Vicky]

Well vicky, where I stand wouldn't amount to a hill of beans. Words like Equality and Levelling the playing field, I don't really understand these (I recall Lincoln explaining Equality, but I haven't checked it with my large dictionary). But I still don't believe those words have any solid meanings, ie, no earthly government will ever treat or be able to treat citizens with equality. Like in jury duty, you are supposed to be judged by a jury of your peers [people equal to you] -- WHAT PEERS, How could they ever be equal to you when every person is unique!?

All I can say is that if same sex couples want legal accommodation, they just have to keep lobbying the government for it. Most likely they will get it, just like most likely the lottery and all those kinds of things will also be approved and set up. Every day I witness all kinds of unusual things and if you check out Bible prophesy (like Matthew chap 24, and 2 Tim chap 3), you will see that all these things will take place before the end of this age!

So nothing surprises me anymore! I just wish the best for us all in whatever situation.
you did not answer the question.
Remember how you would feel if you had no legal access to the person you love and she lay in the hospital near death.
Do you think that there should be some sort of legal accommodation for same sex couples???

[parietal_03]

Post a link where they can be looked up because they are not on http://dictionary.reference.com/

"Taken From HERE" is a link. CLick on it. I also provide instructions as to how to get to the Glossary

[Vicky]

"Taken From HERE" is a link. CLick on it. I also provide instructions as to how to get to the Glossary

Do you think their minds can handel a site like that. I wonder how many are having shock problems while on that site.

[Vicky]

Exactly what I have been telling Vicky all along.
Here is what you are telling me.

You and others can pick and choose which rules in the Bible to follow and you expect others to follow those same rules. You feel others can't pick and choose the rules from the Bible that they want to follow they must follow the rules you pick. (your version of Christianity).

Religions shuold not influance government in making law. But Christians as a group should.

Its ok for laws to discrimanate as long as they don't discrimanate against your way of life.

Its ok for laws/policies to be in place that give you acsess to your loved one, but others should not have rights to their loved ones. Just because they are different.

You feel its ok to have laws that treat people differently than you your self want to be treated.

That is what you are telling me BSM........
It does not go with the teachings of Christ the man who walked the earth.
Equality He taught it he lived it. He treated none less than the other.



If you ask our opinion, we will be against it, that what forums are for to express opinions. We express opinions based on our belief system, and the bible clearly says that homosexuality is wrong and that marriage is between a man and a woman.

I make no attempts to influence the government against their cause for same sex marriage, all you guys got to do is keep lobbying like Great Demos says.

The reality is that true christians will not force religion on you, as you are free to not be a christian, but if the government or any group or individual asks a christian for their opinion on same sex marriage they will always get a NO.

So basically don't ask for us to accept it because it will only lead to homosexual sex, it will make it seem ok for more people to say 'hey I think I am a homosexual' and it twists the concept of marriage.

Indeed the end is coming and these things will come to pass no matter what, if you want to speed it up, then don't ask us - go straight to the government, only they can help you, christians won't agree to it, it is against our way of life that is guided by the God of the bible.

Got it vicky? Not trying to be harsh, but you can argue with us forever on this subject and always get a resounding NO. I am fine with you guys living together and having rights that you don't have - but marriage was not created for same sex unions, and homosexuality is not an option in our religion.

Stop arguing with us and go straight to the government, you can't change our minds, use your time to petition the government not us. We can't help, and probably won't help.

Don't be mad with us, we don't make the laws. :cool:

[Vicky]

Ok BSM this just came to me but you all need to read what I am going to say and I hope I get it out right. If you don't understand plaease ask.

BSM you quote from the Bible about the laws not being changed not one jot. Also those that teach contrary to the law shall be the least called in heaven.

here is your question.

What is the penalty for adultery under the law? I will make it short and answer it for you. Death by stoning.

What did Christ teach when the mob was going to stone the woman for adultry??

Under the law Christ was obligated to pick up a stone and stone the woman.
He broke the law he taught against the law.

WHY????????????
This might help you understand the true meaning of what Christ came to teach.

[Great Demos]

Exactly what I have been telling Vicky all along.

If you ask our opinion, we will be against it, that what forums are for to express opinions. We express opinions based on our belief system, and the bible clearly says that homosexuality is wrong and that marriage is between a man and a woman.

I make no attempts to influence the government against their cause for same sex marriage, all you guys got to do is keep lobbying like Great Demos says.

The reality is that true christians will not force religion on you, as you are free to not be a christian, but if the government or any group or individual asks a christian for their opinion on same sex marriage they will always get a NO.

So basically don't ask for us to accept it because it will only lead to homosexual sex, it will make it seem ok for more people to say 'hey I think I am a homosexual' and it twists the concept of marriage.

Indeed the end is coming and these things will come to pass no matter what, if you want to speed it up, then don't ask us - go straight to the government, only they can help you, christians won't agree to it, it is against our way of life that is guided by the God of the bible.

Got it vicky? Not trying to be harsh, but you can argue with us forever on this subject and always get a resounding NO. I am fine with you guys living together and having rights that you don't have - but marriage was not created for same sex unions, and homosexuality is not an option in our religion.

Stop arguing with us and go straight to the government, you can't change our minds, use your time to petition the government not us. We can't help, and probably won't help.

Don't be mad with us, we don't make the laws. :cool:

You know what, one of the things I believe that is causing most of this disagreement (for want of a better word) among Vicky and some of us is that Vicky somehow does not believe the Bible is God-breathed, and all of what it says are God's words! If he did believe this, then most of his nit-picking and taking things out of the Word out of context would just go away!

The other day I heard a program about the Dead Sea Scrolls which were discovered in 1947. The speaker said they had been hidden for some 2,000 years. And after a careful translation and checking them against the King James version of the Bible we have today, for the most part, our Bible's accuracy was between 97 and 99%. Punctuation marks and spelling differences account for most of the minor differences.

So the conclusion was that Christ Himself read from the same Old Testament we use today!

I am going to do a Google search on the Dead Sea Scrolls and see what I can come up with, 'cause if its true what this speaker said, then perhaps the Bible was NOT really tampered with, except some versions like what the Catholics and maybe some other denominations use!

[bsmbahamas]

You know what, one of the things I believe that is causing most of this disagreement (for want of a better word) among Vicky and some of us is that Vicky somehow does not believe the Bible is God-breathed, and all of what it says are God's words! If he did believe this, then most of his nit-picking and taking things out of the Word out of context would just go away!

The other day I heard a program about the Dead Sea Scrolls which were discovered in 1947. The speaker said they had been hidden for some 2,000 years. And after a careful translation and checking them against the King James version of the Bible we have today, for the most part, our Bible's accuracy was between 97 and 99%. Punctuation marks and spelling differences account for most of the minor differences.

So the conclusion was that Christ Himself read from the same Old Testament we use today!

I am going to do a Google search on the Dead Sea Scrolls and see what I can come up with, 'cause if its true what this speaker said, then perhaps the Bible was NOT really tampered with, except some versions like what the Catholics and maybe some other denominations use!



try http://www.allaboutgod.com and search for dead sea scrolls.

they a good deal of info and a sample comparison.

[bsmbahamas]

Ok BSM this just came to me but you all need to read what I am going to say and I hope I get it out right. If you don't understand plaease ask.

BSM you quote from the Bible about the laws not being changed not one jot. Also those that teach contrary to the law shall be the least called in heaven.

here is your question.

What is the penalty for adultery under the law? I will make it short and answer it for you. Death by stoning.

What did Christ teach when the mob was going to stone the woman for adultry??

Under the law Christ was obligated to pick up a stone and stone the woman.
He broke the law he taught against the law.

WHY????????????
This might help you understand the true meaning of what Christ came to teach.



Vicky, Christ forgave the woman for her sin, and told her to go and sin no more - he did not say it is ok for us to sin! Further, Jesus is God and has the ability to forgive sins - human can't forgive sins, they can forgive you for trespassing againt them but they cannot pardon your sins - Jesus is God he could forgive sins and he did. He forgave other of their sins while he walked the earth as well. But he also stressed that you can't get to the the father by him.

check it out:

Matthew 9:6
But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins....” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.”

Luke 5:21
The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, “Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

[bsmbahamas]

Here is what you are telling me.

You and others can pick and choose which rules in the Bible to follow and you expect others to follow those same rules. You feel others can't pick and choose the rules from the Bible that they want to follow they must follow the rules you pick. (your version of Christianity).

Religions shuold not influance government in making law. But Christians as a group should.


That is not what I said, I said that homosexuality is plainly forbidden in the bible, I have never once heard you admit that this is true. Second, the bible has no marriages between same sex gender as I recall.

first you have to admit that it is a sin, before you can turn away from it.



Its ok for laws to discrimanate as long as they don't discrimanate against your way of life.

Its ok for laws/policies to be in place that give you acsess to your loved one, but others should not have rights to their loved ones. Just because they are different.

You feel its ok to have laws that treat people differently than you your self want to be treated.

That is what you are telling me BSM........
It does not go with the teachings of Christ the man who walked the earth.
Equality He taught it he lived it. He treated none less than the other.


I didn't make the laws, I don't agree with homosexuality, and I don't agree with same sex marriage. That said, I don't preach that at anyone, I have gay friends, if they ask me then I will tell them that I don't agree, but I will never treat them differently. Same sex marriage is not permitted by law in the Bahamas -> who made these laws? the lawmakers or the chrstians?

everyone has a duty to influence government in a positive way. I don't see the harm caused by gays getting married - but my religion forbids it. I don't preach my religion unless asked. I could care less if you guys got marriage priviledges, but I will not ever agree with it, because it is a forbidden practice.

my religion is my religion - not yours, you are free to do as you please, I already told you that - in fact I said that your group needs to go after the lawmakers not the forum - we can't change the law.

[parietal_03]

Second, the bible has no marriages between same sex gender as I recall.

The Bible also only has one account of Onanism. Does that mean it only happened once in the history of the world.
By the way, if you use condoms when having sex, it's the same thing. Are you dead yet?

The Bible never mentions that parrots talk, therefore imagine how many parrots and people with parrots were killed in conjunction with sorcery.

The Bible says that Elijah was fed by ravens...Levite Law says that ravens are dirty. Shouldn't he have starved to death? I guess that makes him a bad Jew.

The Bible conveniently fails to mention that "Adam and Eve" had daughters, does that mean they didn't have any? Or did they run out of space on the scrolls to write the daughters' names down.

The Bible is very anti-woman when it lists geneologies...I ask again, for the THIRD time (in case you haven't seen the other two) what else do they leave out.
Stop. Look at Vicky's Avatar.
For the FOURTH time, what does that Bible leave out. I would VERY much like to see the answer in a post under YOUR name "bsmbahamas".

Also, the Bible makes it clear that there are MANY laws.
Eg. One for Israel on the whole and another especially for the Levites.

So, I ask you good Gentile...why are YOU keeping and biggin up cherry picked aspects of Israeli law and farting on others?
By the way, who told YOU to be fruitful and multiply? And please, don't come with the "when he told Adam and Eve be fruitful he told me" answer, because there are still "barren" wombs and "infertile" men. Who told them "not to be fruitful and multiply?"

I like where this is going, how is it that now Vicky's fight is with the law and law-makers? Aren't the "spirit-filled" pastors telling people how to vote and who to vote for an indication that the people still retain the power over the law? Doesn't this tell you that it takes manipulation to get that power from them?
Mind you, Law played a major role in your Christ's crucifixion.
You are the law. People are the law. You is Bahamaland power.
You is people. You is Bahamaland people.
Vicky has questions for you. Just like I have questions for myself.

There are many Israeli "abominations" you get away with, simply because they are legal excuses for it, and the fact that there are no loud protests over abominations like masturbation, adultery, lust, mixing meat and dairy...leads me to believe that what is done to people like Vicky is done to satisfy some sort of God-complex for people who only want to be on ZNS or constantly in the public eye like a stick. Just like "Brad and Jen" and "Ben and Jen"...only doing it to stay "In".
How fitting, if you want to fix public things, take the stick out of the public's eye.
What, does it make you feel righteous to hold the free will of others in one hand and give them the social middle finger with the other?
Is your religion a personal one or a social one?
Is your religion for you or for society?
I ask because your religion doesn't appear to be for your God.

Your God still lets the sun rise on just and injust. On Sodomites and Vaginalites, Oralites, Audiolites, Nasalites...on any other "ites" you can think of.
My God's business is not Sin Management. My God's business is providing an alternative to sin for those who want it. If people don't want that alternative then they don't want it, that's their choice, but they'll have to give an account for their life against the life of The One The Three sent.

From what I've read from the Bible of your God: you cannot get Sin Clemency from Him, without first giving it to others. And you have to ask Him for it.
Here it is Vicky's asking YOU and you say, go to/lobby with the law-makers. IF what your Bible say is true about judgement, you shall own yourself an unpleasant surprise when you stand before your Maker.

[Great Demos]

you did not answer the question.
Remember how you would feel if you had no legal access to the person you love and she lay in the hospital near death.
Do you think that there should be some sort of legal accommodation for same sex couples???

Vicky, I almost missed this one -- I thought I had answered the question so fully, I didn't think you'd have any further queries on it. Like sometimes when someone gives you such a good and truthful answer, you don't give even a tiny comment about it!

But despite the tendency you seem to have of drawing one into a "trap" and proceeding to blow them to pieces (LOL), I'll see if I can answer you again:

1) Do I stand for equality or not? I told you I don't like the word and don't think it has any "solid" meaning, ie, it can hardly result in practical applications on earth today! (Probably not even in heaven).

So the law would not let GLBTs marry the same sex, and the same law would not let heterosexuals marry the same sex also!: Do you want MORE equality than that!? The same law applies to all!

And I believe in the WHOLE Bible, so I don't think it is right for GLBTs to marry one another because the Bible says it is wrong! I wouldn't split hairs over it -- I told you before that a number of my close relatives are that way (2 of them in particular are very educated, very intelligent, and I respect their mentality in that sense and even some of the things they have accomplished (I am sure you know one of them well also).

2) Re legal accommodation for same sex couples: My answer above covers this also. Whatever legal accommodations you think or know you are being denied, just lobby the powers that be! I am sure ther are lawyers who are GLBT who can help the cause (if that's the right word).

Now I know you are going to quote what Christ said, etc, but Christ was God in the flesh. And He knows why He said what He said. But some things He said are not easy to understand. We must try to understand what He said in the context in which it was said and also enlist His help in our understanding!

Another thing to consider (correct me if I am wrong), but don't all the other religions disallow same sex marriage also? Or is it just Christianity?

[Vicky]

You know what, one of the things I believe that is causing most of this disagreement (for want of a better word) among Vicky and some of us is that Vicky somehow does not believe the Bible is God-breathed, You are so correct I don't believe the Bible we have today is complete it has also been altered by man.
and all of what it says are God's words!If you believe the "Bible is God-breathed" why aren't you living by all the laws of the Bible? Do you wear clothing of mixed fiber. Does your home have a railing around the roof. All laws in the Bible.
If he did believe this, then most of his nit-picking and taking things out of the Word out of context would just go away! The Creator gave us all the ability to question. I do question the Bible the Creator knows I question the Bible. The Creator knew I would question the Bible before the Creator created the hevans. The Creator knew the results of me questioning the Bible before the Creator created the heavens and the earth.


The other day I heard a program about the Dead Sea Scrolls which were discovered in 1947. The speaker said they had been hidden for some 2,000 years. And after a careful translation and checking them against the King James version of the Bible we have today, for the most part, our Bible's accuracy was between 97 and 99%. Punctuation marks and spelling differences account for most of the minor differences.

So the conclusion was that Christ Himself read from the same Old Testament we use today!

I am going to do a Google search on the Dead Sea Scrolls and see what I can come up with, 'cause if its true what this speaker said, then perhaps the Bible was NOT really tampered with, except some versions like what the Catholics and maybe some other denominations use!



Dead sea scrolls ref
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/library.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/enoch.html
Where is the Book of Enouch in the Bible
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Enouch;&version=9;
The Dead sea scrolls are of the Old Testament. (as far as my reaserch has taken me)
Much is missing in the Bible we read today.

[parietal_03]

The other day I heard a program about the Dead Sea Scrolls which were discovered in 1947. The speaker said they had been hidden for some 2,000 years. And after a careful translation and checking them against the King James version of the Bible we have today, for the most part, our Bible's accuracy was between 97 and 99%. Punctuation marks and spelling differences account for most of the minor differences.

So the conclusion was that Christ Himself read from the same Old Testament we use today!

I am going to do a Google search on the Dead Sea Scrolls and see what I can come up with, 'cause if its true what this speaker said, then perhaps the Bible was NOT really tampered with, except some versions like what the Catholics and maybe some other denominations use!

Come now Demos, you know better than this. When you quote Scriptures from the Bible, do you COPY and PASTE the entire Bible or do you just post textural excerpts?
I'm sure I can find a verse in the Bible that says

"3Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.

4And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts."

You have a fellow brother in Christ in bsmbahamas, do you not?
As accurate as that is to the KJV, you should be corrupting bsmbahamas's sperm and children then? "Even the dung of your solemn feasts..." does this mean that bsmbahamas' wife can't cook? So you should be spreading dung on other people's faces then?
It's accurate. Look it up in Malachi 2. Taking just this portion of scripture to consideration would raise hell amongst the both of you correct?

But unless you read all of Malachi then you won't get it. Further, unless you read the entire Bible preceding to Malachi you won't understand it. You have to read the entire Bible to put it in it's suggested context. Just because 2,000 year old scrolls were found does not mean that was all the scrolls that was ever written. The fact that these scrolls were found HIDDEN tells you what? And you think that's the only hidden cache of scrolls?!

Bsmbahamas, If I have caused you any offense/discomfort with my analogy, I apologize profusely and humbly ask your forgiveness.
I did this to show that taking PORTIONS of scripture and applying what you think they mean to other people and their family (without their assent/consent) can prove detrimental, even lethal! At best, when put into practice: it is "the gentle art of making enemies."
People MEAN to leave out bits and pieces of the Bible to manipulate what they want from society. The fact that the Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden says something.
Look at Amos 9:7. Were there NO witnesses to this? Not one?! Even Sodom had a few and both Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed! Why are there no records of this beyond a mere mention? "Hidden"? Please!

[Great Demos]

You are so correct I don't believe the Bible we have today is complete it has also been altered by man.If you believe the "Bible is God-breathed" why aren't you living by all the laws of the Bible? Do you wear clothing of mixed fiber. Does your home have a railing around the roof. All laws in the Bible. The Creator gave us all the ability to question. I do question the Bible the Creator knows I question the Bible. The Creator knew I would question the Bible before the Creator created the hevans. The Creator knew the results of me questioning the Bible before the Creator created the heavens and the earth.


Dead sea scrolls ref
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/library.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/enoch.html
Where is the Book of Enouch in the Bible
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Enouch;&version=9;
The Dead sea scrolls are of the Old Testament. (as far as my reaserch has taken me)
Much is missing in the Bible we read today.

Yes Vicky, the Creator knows all things we do and plan to do, etc. But the Creator is Spirit, though He can appear in any form. He uses earthly people as His Hands and Feet to serve others and also to teach others. Also, He can cause you to have dreams and visions or put a strong impression into your heart about truth. But if He uses all these different ways to talk to us and we don't listen, He would not like it!

And yes, I for one also believe in questioning everything! But if you have been questioning His word (or the Bible) for such a long time, you really should have some very good answers by now. I mean you should be on the top of your form. We should all be able to learn much from you, hopefully.

[Vicky]

Vicky, I almost missed this one -- I thought I had answered the question so fully, I didn't think you'd have any further queries on it. Like sometimes when someone gives you such a good and truthful answer, you don't give even a tiny comment about it!

But despite the tendency you seem to have of drawing one into a "trap" and proceeding to blow them to pieces (LOL), I'll see if I can answer you again:
First off interpretation is to be tested. If I (simple minded me) can use a question and draw one into a ""trap" and proceeding to blow them to pieces". That should send a smoke signal that something is wrong with ones faith. Do you believe just because you are told to believe??

1) Do I stand for equality or not? I told you I don't like the word and don't think it has any "solid" meaning, ie, it can hardly result in practical applications on earth today! (Probably not even in heaven).
I hope you remember this the day someone treats you less than a human being.

So the law would not let GLBTs marry the same sex, and the same law would not let heterosexuals marry the same sex also!: Now that’s a twist. I never herd it mixed up like that. So what you are saying here is: Its ok that only heterosexuals have rights to marry/love/have legal accommodation to their loved ones (because heterosexuals don't marry same sex). But GLBT are not equaly human there for should not have that right.
Do you want MORE equality than that!? The same law applies to all!

And I believe in the WHOLE Bible, so I don't think it is right for GLBTs to marry one another because the Bible says it is wrong! The Bible says we are allowed to have slaves. Do you believe in slavery????
I wouldn't split hairs over it -- I told you before that a number of my close relatives are that way (2 of them in particular are very educated, very intelligent, and I respect their mentality in that sense and even some of the things they have accomplished (I am sure you know one of them well also).

2) Re legal accommodation for same sex couples: My answer above covers this also. Whatever legal accommodations you think or know you are being denied, just lobby the powers that be! I am sure ther are lawyers who are GLBT who can help the cause (if that's the right word).
Yes they can. But its people that must stand and say stop the injustice. We are all equaly humans. Just as you don't want someone else’s faith forced on you by law you must not stand by and have a law that forces your faith on others.

Now I know you are going to quote what Christ said, etc, but Christ was God in the flesh. And He knows why He said what He said. But some things He said are not easy to understand. We must try to understand what He said in the context in which it was said and also enlist His help in our understanding!
Now here are some truthful words. But the context changed about the world being flat and the mention of the four corners of the earth in the Bible. It had its transition stage. We are in the transition stage of understanding the born eunuch. Medical science has found a link between the development of the brain and the eunuch (aka ambiguous sex). This link can produce homosexuality.

Another thing to consider (correct me if I am wrong), but don't all the other religions disallow same sex marriage also? Or is it just Christianity?

Many religions honor same sex unions even Christianity.
http://www.paratheke.net/stephanos/articles/adelphopoiesis.html
Adelphopoiesis (Slav. pobratimstvo, lit. ‘brother-making’) is an ecclesiastical rite found in the old in the service books of the Orthodox Church which was used to bind together two members of the same-sex