There is often a lot of references to what was supposedly changed by Constantine in the bible. But how much do we really know about it?

What evidence do we have for an event that supposedly occured over 1500 years ago? Documents?

What do these documents actually say about the incident? What was rewritten?

How is it that some people find these writings more credible than the bible? Some believe the bible was altered by Constantine, because of "evidence" that could have been altered or doctored by others as well.

Doesn't it come down to faith? Either faith in the bible as it is...or faith in documents that denounce the bible that we know today.

What do you believe? What are your answers?

do i believe it was altered? yes...why? because of the track record that the roman catholic church had in keeping it's members in the dark. that and the fact that the various other gnostic groups were stomped out of existance...that my friend doesnt exactly build faith in one's credibility

Well, that wasn't the question but I respect your point.

But by your comment are you implying that Roman Catholocism was the only religion during the time of Constantine, and that there was no possible way of another religion being practised in another land?

Some gnostic writings were discovered and are around today, but many people take those writings as true and disclaim the bible, without noticing its own "inconsistencies".

Still faith in something I guess, but do you have a response to the questions that I posted?

There is often a lot of references to what was supposedly changed by Constantine in the bible. But how much do we really know about it?

What evidence do we have for an event that supposedly occured over 1500 years ago? Documents?

What do these documents actually say about the incident? What was rewritten?

How is it that some people find these writings more credible than the bible? Some believe the bible was altered by Constantine, because of "evidence" that could have been altered or doctored by others as well.

Doesn't it come down to faith? Either faith in the bible as it is...or faith in documents that denounce the bible that we know today.

What do you believe? What are your answers?

Look up First Pope
Niceine council
Emperor Constaitine and the Bible
Here are a few links I have posted before.
http://www.reformation.org/meet_the_first_pope.html
http://www.letusreason.org/Trin13.htm
http://www.latter-rain.com/ltrain/nicene.htm
http://www.thunderministries.com/history/Nicea.html
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html
deep reading at the bottom of this one.
http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/

This is a good one
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

Well, that wasn't the question but I respect your point.

But by your comment are you implying that Roman Catholocism was the only religion during the time of Constantine, and that there was no possible way of another religion being practised in another land?
Pre Constantine there was no organized Christianity as we see it today. Christianity was nothing like what we see now. There was no such thing as Catholics and so on. Even after Constantine there was only 1 official state recognized Christianity. They are now called Catholics. By order of Constantine all other forms of Christianity were destroyed.
Some gnostic writings were discovered and are around today, but many people take those writings as true and disclaim the bible, without noticing its own "inconsistencies".
Gnostics were destroyed by the order of Constantine. But jars were found in a cave like the dead sea scrolls were found. In these jars were scrolls of the Gnostics
Still faith in something I guess, but do you have a response to the questions that I posted?

There are "inconsistencies" in every faith but that is where we must turn to fact.

From the other thread


I believe that if you have the Spirit of in your heart you will be able to discern fact from fiction. This is why Paul prayed that the church should posess the gift of discernment. If you have the gift of discernment you should be able to detect any error if it existed in the Bible. I have found none.

I have learned that inconsistencies are a result of my own lack of understanding of the word. So I prayed that I will never doubt. The Bible teaches us that we must not be tossed to-and-fro by every wind that comes our way but to be stable and grounded in what we know to be true because we are witness to the transforming power of the Spirit of God. You see the world does not know the Spirit so they need to be convinced. We however know the Spirit so we need not be convinced. Who then should be leading who?

The Bible is the mind of God so for us to fully understand it we must first believe in God. Only God can teach us the truth and only Him can guide us.

One of satan's most powerful weapon is Distraction. The pursuit of knowledge is a "good thing" but not every "good thing" is beneficial. Satan wants us to get consumed useless text and deeds so that we might be detoured from our purpose.

Here is my advice:
- Read the Bible.
Why should one read the Bible.
- Allow the Spirit to guide you.
- Know your purpose in life.
- Everything outside of your purpose is a distraction.

do i believe it was altered? yes...why? because of the track record that the roman catholic church had in keeping it's members in the dark. that and the fact that the various other gnostic groups were stomped out of existance...that my friend doesnt exactly build faith in one's credibility


According to what I read, Jesus is said to have quoted from all but one/two books of the old testament while he walked the earth.

The gnostic Gospels were excluded because they could not be tied to the other books of the bible and could not past the test for canonization.

This is the reason given for their exclusion.

As far as catholics are concerned, I don't follw anything they do nor regard them as a christian religion. They do not teach that Christ died for our salvation, and further to that they believe that when you die you don't go to a heaven or a hell but to a place called purgatory.

Also Jesus died to eliminate the need for confession to a priest. All we do now is pray for forgiveness.

The catholic religion is based more on ranks and advancing up the ranks like the masonic lodge in my opinion, rather than focusing on preaching the gospel as Jesus commanded.

Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Pre Constantine there was no organized Christianity as we see it today. Christianity was nothing like what we see now. There was no such thing as Catholics and so on. Even after Constantine there was only 1 official state recognized Christianity. They are now called Catholics. By order of Constantine all other forms of Christianity were destroyed. Gnostics were destroyed by the order of Constantine. But jars were found in a cave like the dead sea scrolls were found. In these jars were scrolls of the Gnostics
There are "inconsistencies" in every faith but that is where we must turn to fact.


Your answers could be supported, and are good answers, but 2 of the questions i asked weren't answered.

what do we have to support these statements? only documents, and who determines the credibility of these documents ?

Did Constantine make up Jesus then? Is this possible?

And could Constantine have honestly killed all Christians back in those times, as I asked earlier?....Is it not possible that some Christians may have travelled to other lands and settled, and were spared?

I'm sure you must be familiar with the dead sea scrolls, as I think you even referred to them before. THey are dated back before constantine, near Jesus' time, and they contain text from the bible we have today.....

Therefore I posed the question in the beginning as to what was changed in the bible?

Pre Constantine there was no organized Christianity as we see it today. Christianity was nothing like what we see now. There was no such thing as Catholics and so on. Even after Constantine there was only 1 official state recognized Christianity. They are now called Catholics. By order of Constantine all other forms of Christianity were destroyed. Gnostics were destroyed by the order of Constantine. But jars were found in a cave like the dead sea scrolls were found. In these jars were scrolls of the Gnostics
There are "inconsistencies" in every faith but that is where we must turn to fact.



Why is it that people equate christianity to cathlosism.

You do not have to be a catholic to be a christian. On the contrary the catholics are to be blamed for ruining the meaning of a christian.

As I understand what a christian should be like - thou shalt not kill, a commandment - immediatley disqualifies the catholics who were behind the crusades and/or inquisition.

ANd whay do they even have a pope? or priests for confession? or idols in the church? why do they pray to Mary and the dead saints - isn't that praying to the dead?

Jesus taught us how to pray and he also said not to use vain repititions - that is equivalent to meditation chants. So why do catholics pray the Hail Mary(to a dead person) 50 times while using a rosary?

Catholics are bad examples of christians. No offense to them, but they should really read their bible and they would see how many contrary practices they are involved in.

you are asking a question to which the answer has been posted even before you asked it. it is because of the roman catholic church that christianity exists in the form it does today (what logical person could deny this?) it is because the roman catholic church and the crusades/inquisitions that christianity is so wide spread also (please tell me why else, if i'm wrong). "preaching the word" wasn't fast moving enough so they employed strong arm tactics instead. And if you knew about christian history (and i think you do know this) the catholics created the place known as a purgatory in order to make money off of it's followers. The bottom line is that early catholicism kept their members in the dark by not allowing them to read bibles for themselves (not that they could anyway) so them editing things in the bible isn't something that's impossible.

you are asking a question to which the answer has been posted even before you asked it. it is because of the roman catholic church that christianity exists in the form it does today (what logical person could deny this?) it is because the roman catholic church and the crusades/inquisitions that christianity is so wide spread also (please tell me why else, if i'm wrong). "preaching the word" wasn't fast moving enough so they employed strong arm tactics instead. And if you knew about christian history (and i think you do know this) the catholics created the place known as a purgatory in order to make money off of it's followers. The bottom line is that early catholicism kept their members in the dark by not allowing them to read bibles for themselves (not that they could anyway) so them editing things in the bible isn't something that's impossible.


they still prevent reading the bible today.

but any member can pick up a bible and read about the fallacies of catholic religion.

And like Rizzo said the dead see scrolls are almost identical and(I believe) predate the constantine bible.

"Based on various dating methods, including carbon 14, paleographic and scribal, the Dead Sea Scrolls were written during the period from about 200 B.C. to 68 A.D."
http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls.htm

Your answers could be supported, and are good answers, but 2 of the questions i asked weren't answered.

what do we have to support these statements? only documents, and who determines the credibility of these documents ?

Did Constantine make up Jesus then? Is this possible? No Constantine did not make Jesus up. Constantine had the Bible (we now read) made up but not made up for thin air. Made up from Christian writings that were scattered across his (Constantine) known world. He called on men he (Constantine) chose to do this. He (Constantine) paid the men he chose. He (Constantine) directed them and he decided over major issues of conflict these men had in their own writings. When it was said and done Constantine made his Christianity into a state religion and ordered all other writings and followers destroyed. With Constantine began the Christianity we have to day. With Constantine began the Killing in the name of Christ. With Constantine began "Jesus is God" With Constantine his way was the only way.
With Constantine "The Way" Christ taught was lost adapted changed to Constantine’s way.


And could Constantine have honestly killed all Christians back in those times, as I asked earlier?....Is it not possible that some Christians may have travelled to other lands and settled, and were spared? There probably were but they to seem to have been lost now to time. If not where are thay?

I'm sure you must be familiar with the dead sea scrolls, as I think you even referred to them before. THey are dated back before constantine, near Jesus' time, and they contain text from the bible we have today.....
Yes I am familiar with them and if you dig you will find that scholars have found major discreptancies between the Bible we know read and the dead sea scrolls. Besides the Dead sea scrolls are ink on paper just as the Bible is ink on paper.

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/psalms.html

Column 19: Plea for Deliverance (A Noncanonical Psalm)

1. Surely a maggot cannot praise thee nor a grave worm recount thy loving-kindness.
2. But the living can praise thee, even those who stumble can laud thee. In revealing
3. thy kindness to them and by thy righteousness thou dost enlighten them. For in thy hand is the soul of every
4. living thing; the breath of all flesh hast thou given. Deal with us, O LORD,
5. according to thy goodness, according to thy great mercy, and according to thy many righteous deeds. The LORD
6. has heeded the voice of those who love his name and has not deprived them of his loving-kindness.
7. Blessed be the LORD, who executes righteous deeds, crowning his saints
8. with loving-kindness and mercy. My soul cries out to praise thy name, to sing high praises
9. for thy loving deeds, to proclaim thy faithfulness--of praise of thee there is no end. Near death
10. was I for my sins, and my iniquities have sold me to the grave; but thou didst save me,
11. O LORD, according to thy great mercy, and according to thy many righteous deeds. Indeed have I
12. loved thy name, and in thy protection have I found refuge. When I remember thy might my heart
13. is brave, and upon thy mercies do I lean. Forgive my sin, O LORD,
14. and purify me from my iniquity. Vouchsafe me a spirit of faith and knowledge, and let me not be dishonored
15. in ruin. Let not Satan rule over me, nor an unclean spirit; neither let pain nor the evil
16. inclination take possession of my bones. For thou, O LORD, art my praise, and in thee do I hope
17. all the day. Let my brothers rejoice with me and the house of my father, who are astonished by the graciousness...
18. [ ] For e[ver] I will rejoice in thee.


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Therefore I posed the question in the beginning as to what was changed in the bible?

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/enoch.html
English Translation of Enoch (Hanokh)

4Q201(En ara)
Courtesy of the Israel Antiquities Authority (11)

Ena I ii

12. ...But you have changed your works,
13. [and have not done according to his command,
and tran]sgressed against him; (and have spoken)
haughty and harsh words, with your impure mouths,
14. [against his majesty, for your heart is hard].
You will have no peace.

Ena I iii

13. [They (the leaders) and all ... of them took
for themselves]
14. wives from all that they chose and
[they began to cohabit with them and to defile
themselves with them];
15. and to teach them sorcery and [spells and
the cutting of roots; and to acquaint them
with herbs.]
16. And they become pregnant by them and
bo[re (great) giants three thousand cubits high ...]





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Please find the writings of Enoch (Hanokh) in the Bible
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html read for your self.

No Constantine did not make Jesus up. Constantine had the Bible (we now read) made up but not made up for thin air. Made up from Christian writings that were scattered across his (Constantine) known world. He called on men he (Constantine) chose to do this. He (Constantine) paid the men he chose. He (Constantine) directed them and he decided over major issues of conflict these men had in their own writings. When it was said and done Constantine made his Christianity into a state religion and ordered all other writings and followers destroyed. With Constantine began the Christianity we have to day. With Constantine began the Killing in the name of Christ. With Constantine began "Jesus is God" With Constantine his way was the only way.
With Constantine "The Way" Christ taught was lost adapted changed to Constantine’s way.
There probably were but they to seem to have been lost now to time. If not where are thay?

Maybe their faith was passed on in a form of religion around today, who knows...but my point is that it is possible that some could have survived, and their documents as well. Maybe they are yet to be found. Maybe the scrolls is evidence of that.

Yes I am familiar with them and if you dig you will find that scholars have found major discreptancies between the Bible we know read and the dead sea scrolls. Besides the Dead sea scrolls are ink on paper just as the Bible is ink on paper.

Ok, though you did not answer one of the questions, this is the direction I was going in as well...the documents you read that support the notion that Constantine edited the bible is also "ink on paper"...it all comes down to whether you believe all was changed or not...it doesn't say what was changed in the bible you know....all you may be able to find is documents saying that he edited the bible,...but none can say what in the bible was changed. Maybe the discrepancies are what Constantine had changed in the bible...that is possible...And also, you speak of the discrepancies in the scrolls...but speak not of the similarities :gi:

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/psalms.html

Column 19: Plea for Deliverance (A Noncanonical Psalm)

1. Surely a maggot cannot praise thee nor a grave worm recount thy loving-kindness.
2. But the living can praise thee, even those who stumble can laud thee. In revealing
3. thy kindness to them and by thy righteousness thou dost enlighten them. For in thy hand is the soul of every
4. living thing; the breath of all flesh hast thou given. Deal with us, O LORD,
5. according to thy goodness, according to thy great mercy, and according to thy many righteous deeds. The LORD
6. has heeded the voice of those who love his name and has not deprived them of his loving-kindness.
7. Blessed be the LORD, who executes righteous deeds, crowning his saints
8. with loving-kindness and mercy. My soul cries out to praise thy name, to sing high praises
9. for thy loving deeds, to proclaim thy faithfulness--of praise of thee there is no end. Near death
10. was I for my sins, and my iniquities have sold me to the grave; but thou didst save me,
11. O LORD, according to thy great mercy, and according to thy many righteous deeds. Indeed have I
12. loved thy name, and in thy protection have I found refuge. When I remember thy might my heart
13. is brave, and upon thy mercies do I lean. Forgive my sin, O LORD,
14. and purify me from my iniquity. Vouchsafe me a spirit of faith and knowledge, and let me not be dishonored
15. in ruin. Let not Satan rule over me, nor an unclean spirit; neither let pain nor the evil
16. inclination take possession of my bones. For thou, O LORD, art my praise, and in thee do I hope
17. all the day. Let my brothers rejoice with me and the house of my father, who are astonished by the graciousness...
18. [ ] For e[ver] I will rejoice in thee.


http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=maggot&version1=9&searchtype=all&wholewordsonly=yes&spanbegin=1&spanend=73

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Nice convo Vicky :tup: ...

http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/Library/levit.html
English Translation of Leviticus (Va-Yikrah)

11Q1(PaleoLev)
Courtesy of the Israel Antiquities Authority (4)

Lev. 23:22-29

1. (22)[...edges of your field, or] gather [the gleanings of your harvest; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger; I the LO]RD [am]
2. your God.
3. (23)The LORD spoke to Moses saying: (24)Speak to the Israelite people thus: In the seventh month
4. on the first day of the month, you shall observe complete rest, a sacred occasion commemorated with load blasts.
5. (25)You shall not work at your occupations; and you shall bring an offering by fire to the LORD.
6. (26)The LORD spoke to Moses saying: (27)Mark, the tenth day of this seventh month is the Day
7. of Atonement. It shall be a sacred occasion for you: you shall practice self-denial, and you shall bring an offering
8. by fire to the LORD; (28)you shall do no work throughout that day. For
9. [it is a Day of Atonement on which] expiation is made on your behalf [before the LO]RD your God. (29)Indeed, any person who



http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=%20Leviticus.%2023:22-29;&version=9;
Leviticus 23:22-29 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain


22And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.


23And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,


24Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.


25Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.


26And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,


27Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD.


28And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.


29For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.


Close enough I guess.

"similar" is not "the same as".

please remember Constantine could not change Jewish wirtings as they were already cannonized by the Jews. It is the New Testament He played with.