Our country today is in the abyss of moral purgatory. All of the moral deficiencies that have brought down the most powerful empires of the world seem to be the status quo of present day Bahamas. There appears to be no clear demarcation of right and wrong. Selfishness, greed and a desire to fulfill one’sa base desires are as common as Peas and rice. While there are many institutions that can be blame for our present dire circumstances; it’s my belief that a fairly large proportion of the blame can be laid at the feet of the church.

God gave the church an awesome responsibility as it relates to the spiritual and moral aspect of a nation. The Bible states: ‘That the church is the ground and pillar of the truth.’ It can be argued that a nation’s morality is reflective of the church. In simple language the moral throes in which in which we find our nation is because our church has lost its way.
We can choose to bury our heads in the sand or face our demons head on. To bury our heads in the sand will only hasten our moral collapse; however, to face our problems is to be on the road to moral redemption. It is only when we admit that we have a problem that we can truly address it and begin to change for the better.

The painful truth is that far too many of our church leaders have lost their focus. They have been diverted from the true essence of their profession or calling. They have allowed themselves to become caught up in their own greed, pride and egoistic desires; behaviors for which the bible condemns. Many Pastors, Teachers and top church officials for all intents and purpose are running competition with their counterparts, in terms of their wealth, fame and popularity.

Far too many of our Bishops have egos larger than Andros island and their pomposity are —excuse the expression— ungodly to say the least. They doth ‘bestride the world like a colossus’ while you and I must find ourselves ‘dishonorable graves.’ They appear to have forgotten the Bible’s warning that pride precedes destruction and a haughty heart a fall. Our church leaders certainly have forgotten the lord’sa admonition: ‘He that is the greatest among you must be your servant,’ instead they have become despotic. They asked the faithful to ‘give until it hurts’ and they themselves could careless about their members next meal!
Noted columnist Leonard Pitts of the Miami herald wrote: “I am reminded of a minister friend who likes to say Christianity is wonderful, except for some of the Christians in it. I tend to think the same is true of Islam and, indeed, faith in general. All, it seems to me, are overpopulated with narrow-minded literalist, hypocritical fundamentalist and frothing extremist eager to act as Gods understudies for purposes of judgment and punishment, yet conspicuously absent when it comes time to turn the other cheek, feed my sheep and love ye one another.”

Another sad aspect of so many of our leading churchmen is that they are nothing more than Politicians masquerading as Preachers. There seemingly blind obedience to their political masters have bordered on sacrilege. A clear indication of their allegiance to their political directorate as oppose to the precepts of God, is their religious indignation before and after the General election of 2002. Many top brass of the Christian Council rain down fire and brimstone on the FNM administration. They had put squarely the moral decay of our nation on the then Government. Today our country is spiraling deeper and deeper in the chasms of moral decay, corruption, unaccountability and share political indifference; however, the Christian council is deafeningly silent.
It is evident that many of these so call righteous men are more concern about their favorite political party being in power as oppose to that parties’ moral and ethical standards.

It is this hypocritical disposition the nation now sees. Our young men and women are left to ponder whether right and wrong is relative or whether they are Eternal ideals. This is a very serious indictment on the church and its leaders. What we have in essence is a very ancient but powerful concept namely, monkey see monkey do. In other words action speaks louder than words. Human beings tend to emulate leaders and those in authority in every sphere of human endeavors and the church is no exception. It stands to reason that if the church, which is the moral conscience of a nation, has no conscience that nation will likewise have no moral and spiritual conscience; thus, a selfish, materialistic and uncaring nation.

In essence what our church leaders has done is brought the lines of right and wrong so close together that is has become increasingly difficult to tell the difference. If the winds of despair this summer—hurricanes Frances and Jeanne— is any indication of our spiritual and moral health, clearly the church has been found wanting.

In closing I leave these words of warning from a religious pamphlet entitled, The Testimony of truth: “Unless and until the People of God turn to obeying the saying of the master, (Jesus Christ) the present apathy will continue and we shall witness a further descent into the abyss of immorality, degradation, pollution, perversion and lawlessness.”

Our country today is in the abyss of moral purgatory. All of the moral deficiencies that have brought down the most powerful empires of the world seem to be the status quo of present day Bahamas. There appears to be no clear demarcation of right and wrong. Selfishness, greed and a desire to fulfill one’sa base desires are as common as Peas and rice. While there are many institutions that can be blame for our present dire circumstances; it’s my belief that a fairly large proportion of the blame can be laid at the feet of the church.
I whole-heartedly agree. That could very well be the case. I encourage anyone I meet who is interested in these things to research concepts before we embrace them as individuals, as citizens of nations and/or as pedestrians of faiths.

I'm presently doing some research on the concept of "morality." I haven't finished yet, but what I have found so far I would like to post.

The word MORAL (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Moral&searchmode=none) accepted as an English word c.1340, "of or pertaining to character or temperament" (good or bad), from O.Fr. moral, from L. moralis "proper behavior of a person in society," lit. "pertaining to manners," coined by Cicero ("De Fato," II.i) to translate Gk. ethikos (see ethics) from L. mos (gen. moris) "one's disposition," in pl., "mores, customs, manners, morals," of uncertain origin. Meaning "morally good, conforming to moral rules," is first recorded c.1386 of stories, 1638 of persons. Original value-neutral sense preserved in moral support, moral victory, with sense of "pertaining to character as opposed to physical action." The noun meaning "moral exposition of a story" is attested from c.1500. Moralistic formed 1865.

Any human today worth the water in his body also knows that is was commonplace within Greco-Roman societies to supply each other with myths, legends and lore to explain the order and nature of things. Oftentimes they had processes and conditions of the human existence incarnated into deities of varied status. (e.g. Psychology, Eroticism, Narcissism, Daedal)

One of the sub-deities presented was "Eris" which just happens to be the Greek word for strife. Eris had a Roman counterpart in Discordia, which judging from the name you might gauge her role within myths and legends. Eris supposedly had a daughter named Até .
Até[/] (the Greco-Roman word for 'ruin, blind folly, delusion') personified the state of inability to discern good from evil.
It is this self same mental/spiritual condition that probably led to the procurement of myth and legend in an attempt to explain the world they perceived around themselves.

Excerpt from theDICTIONARY OF THE HISTORY OF IDEAS (http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/cgi-local/DHI/dhi.cgi?id=dv3-37)
[i]"The essential question, however, is not how but why
did the legends and figures of the gods continue to
obsess men's minds and imaginations since the end of
the pagan era. The cause is to be found in the inter-
pretations which antiquity itself had proposed on their
origin and on their nature. These interpretations can
roughly be reduced to three...
The first, and the most prosaic, is euhemerism: the
gods were only men, famous or powerful men, who
had been deified after their death through the adulation
of their contemporaries. This theory is eagerly seized
upon by the Christian apologists, who use it as a
weapon against paganism; but it is a double-edged
weapon. While it debases the gods by setting them on
a level with mortal beings, it also confirms their past
existence: it makes them part of history...
There is another side to euhemerism, and another
consequence. Racial pride inspires medieval clerks to
look back into fabulous antiquity for founders of their
own peoples; just as the Romans boasted the Trojan
Aeneas as their ancestor, the Franks claim another
Trojan, Francus, as their eponymous hero. The prodi-
gious fortune of the Roman de Troie should be ex-
plained, at least partly, by its ethnogenic character.
Not only do mythological figures become “patrons” of
some national group; they also initiate dynasties..."

"The third system of interpretation consists in detect-
ing in the figures of the gods a spiritual significance—
they are personified virtues and passions—and, in their
adventures, a moral teaching. This allegorical method,
applied by the Stoics concurrently with the physical
one, to explain away the seeming absurdity or im-
morality of the myths, became in the hands of the
Neo-Platonists a means of sanctifying them: mythology
is now scrutinized as a sacred text, and even the most
shocking legend is given a pious or philosophical
meaning. For instance, the story of Attis and Cybele
is understood as the trials of the soul in its search for
God. It is in fact for the last pagans—Emperor Julian
among them—an ultimate expedient for salvaging the
gods. For this very reason, the Church should have
been hostile to allegory; but the Fathers themselves,
some of whom, like Saint Ambrose, are deeply imbued
with New-Platonism, apply the same method to the
Holy Scriptures; also, since they retain profane classical
literature in education, they find it necessary to expur-
gate it through moralization."


Just like the observances, holidays and feasts some consider 'Christian' are not really authentically Christian, but borrowed from Non-Christian rites...so I believe is the concept of Morality.
I believe it was a code originally drafted during Pre-Christian Rome for people in states of Até. I also believe that in the same manner in which the Roman-Catholic Church reconstructed the Pre-Christian Pantheon around The Messiah, his Apostles and diverse followers and called them "Patron Saints" so was Morality introduced as an informal public system applying to all rational persons, governing behavior that affects others, with the lessening of evil or harm as its goal.
With the option of a new religion, came the adoption of a new value system, and perhaps in their initial awkward adherence to this different value system the sentiment was, 'Since we don't yet understand the difference between good and evil bad as far as Christianity is concerned, we should act as if we are in the state of Até.' If this is in fact the case, "Here again, Christian controversy succeeds in confirming what it was expected to destroy."

I have not found manuscripts or any historical evidence beyond social patterns to support my theory yet.

For clarity's sake, I would like to state that I am not anti-Christian. I am, however, anti-Christ. I believe that "Jesus Christ" is an icon modelled after the Messiah Yeshua Bar Yoseph. I believe the Bible has been tampered with and that when it comes to spiritual guidance there should be a reliance upon the Ruach HaKodesh instead of The Bible.
I believe agents and/or plenipotentiaries of The Roman Catholic Church to be responsible for the initial misrepresentation of The Messiah prophesied about in Jewish Scriptures.

For clarity's sake, I would like to state that I am not anti-Christian. I am, however, anti-Christ. I believe that "Jesus Christ" is an icon modelled after the Messiah Yeshua Bar Yoseph. I believe the Bible has been tampered with and that when it comes to spiritual guidance there should be a reliance upon the Ruach HaKodesh instead of The Bible.
I believe agents and/or plenipotentiaries of The Roman Catholic Church to be responsible for the initial misrepresentation of The Messiah prophesied about in Jewish Scriptures.
__________________
i am not one that is easily offended. i do believe that no one in the complete arbiter of knowledge. i would appreciate if u give me some information on the ruach hakodesh and your beliefs.

How can the church be blamed when as soon as they open their mouth everyone jumps on them?

- I don't beleive in christianity
- christianity is not the only religion
- Jesus is not the messaih
- the bible is not dependable cause it has been tampered with
- the sun shines on the wicked and the just
- equality for all
- darwinism
- evolution
- atheism
- the list goes on ...

I am a christian, not a die hard christian, but how can the church help those that don't want to be helped? Many say that religion is to blame for society,
you are blaming the church right now.

Bottom line ... everyone has free will, if they choose to live independent of the bible and religion then so be it. The church is supposed to preach the gospel but if nobody wants to listen, then what? Start another crusade?

People are to blame for society, they vote in bad government, they break laws, they avoid God and church, they let their kids do as they please, they sit back and react instead of pro-acting. The church seldom does blatant wrong, and when they do their members should leave.

Nobody wants a christian council, nobody wants jehivah witnesses knocking on their door(myself included).

How then is it the churches fault that man is evil and has the right to refuse God if he wishes?

Why is the governemnt not at blame? They know the drug dealers, they know the number houses, they have legal forms of gambling - casinos, they break the laws themselves, it is now excepted that morality is not a part of the code of ethics?!?! They know where the haitian villages are, they know which companies are under paying their workers, etc, etc, etc ...

Why is the law not to blame? After all when the church goers speak out and protest they are silenced and called hypocrites. The law can rise to the challenge any day it pleases, that is why we have laws - by men for men.

The church most certainly cannot be held accountable, because when they speak nobody listens, and nobody has to listen or even accept God for that matter. However everyone is subject to the laws of our country.

:hot:

(My first time using that icon)

Now I dare say that you are hypocrites for blaming the church for the ills of society when the government does as it pleases, even discards morality from its code of ethics, turn blind eyes to criminals - and who is to blame - the church?

:liar:

C'mon. Gimme a break.

If the church rounded up a list of one dozen drug or gambling houses right now, maybe 2 might get convicted, and you know this.

How can the church be blamed when as soon as they open their mouth everyone jumps on them? In the words of Bob Marley, you can fool SOME of the people SOME of the time, but you can't fool ALL the people all the time. People are beginning to see the light. They are beginning to notice the pattern within history. Within the Bible you hold dear, did you not notice that concerning "Christ" the religious leaders were too chicken to do what they were supposed to do? They tried to get the law-makers to do it for them? Did you not notice who they blamed for the situation of things during that era? "The Romans did it." And later when the Roman Catholic Church was established who did they blame for "Christ"? "The Jews did it."

I am a christian, not a die hard christian, but how can the church help those that don't want to be helped? Many say that religion is to blame for society, you are blaming the church right now.
Yes, the church can and will be held accountable, especially when it seeks to put into play the same old tactics of yesteryear. Still, the church stands in the way of science with it's anti-evolution power plays in schools, still the church by and large does not do it's research concerning the human body- grips too hard upon the self-professed fables/myths and anachronisms within the Bible...Dodging the truth.
Example: I have asked you specifically now FOUR times, what else does the Bible leave out in terms of geneologies bsmbahamas, a response is still forthcoming from you. Am I being ignored? If one asks a representative of the church for clarity and one is ignored, where does the blame lie? When Vicky petitions and appeals to people (within whom the true legislative power lies) for the equitable rights of others, wasn't your response "lobby the law-makers"? See the pattern? People are tired of being ignored.
...you are hypocrites for blaming the church for the ills of society when the government does as it pleases
Antidisestablishmentarianism.
The government seldom does anything new save from that which other governments have done before it. Just as today's War Generals must study the tactics, strategies, philosophies of generals and campaigns that came before; the government SHOULD do the same.
But now I will ask you a question, which will no doubt be as overlooked as the other question I have asked FOUR times. Pray tell, did the present government run it's campaign based on "the power of the people" or "the power and influence of the church"?
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
...even discards morality from its code of ethics, turn blind eyes to criminals - and who is to blame - the church? Again, who introduced "morality"?
Ethics drafted by whose yardstick? And whose big mouth was intergral in getting this government elected?
You should research the word "Ethic" and find out where it comes from. The Church was warned a fair amount of time ahead, that even the very elect would be deceived. And they were, they put their support behind these political fascists to get them into power, and now because they were mistaken don't wish to 'fess up to the blame and responsibility? The church drank the Kool-Aid and now because they tongue red they wish to cry foul when people point it out. Too bad.

C'mon. Gimme a break.
If the church rounded up a list of one dozen drug or gambling houses right now, maybe 2 might get convicted, and you know this.
Do I ever. Pray tell, who was by and large the mitigating factor of opium trade in the Orient? Research "The Black Ship."
And my friend if you think much has changed since then...Tsk Tsk.

P.S. I am in the process of moving. When I am done, I will respond with a more thorough post.

I don't know what the bible left out in terms of geneologies, wasn't dodging either ...

So since you say the church is to be blamed perhaps more than the government which does not enforce its own laws ...

Now what? Toss out church and I guess religion as well?

Should we get rid of ethics and morality as well?

I'm confused now ... what do you propose to be a solution
to our moral purgatory?

I think it starts with each individual wanting to be a better person,
trouble is people don't turn out that way all by themselves, the churches and government are supposed to be guiding forces - but nobody wants either of their help/support/controls.

Let's just get rid of churches and the laws of the state - I doubt we can get much worse than we already are.

I don't know what the bible left out in terms of geneologies, wasn't dodging either ...

So since you say the church is to be blamed perhaps more than the government which does not enforce its own laws ...

Now what? Toss out church and I guess religion as well?

Should we get rid of ethics and morality as well?

I'm confused now ... what do you propose to be a solution
to our moral purgatory?

I think it starts with each individual wanting to be a better person,
trouble is people don't turn out that way all by themselves, the churches and government are supposed to be guiding forces - but nobody wants either of their help/support/controls.

Let's just get rid of churches and the laws of the state - I doubt we can get much worse than we already are.

Bsm I agree with your views here and in post#5.

As you said, the church can only preach the gospel -- they can't go and grab people by the scruff of the neck and MAKE them do he right thing.

The government on the other hand has the power to make laws and to enforce laws. The church cannot do this (and shouldn't even if they had the power).

And I believe that most of these problems we have now started gradually creeping upon us shortly after the PLP came to power in 1967.

Prior to that we never heard about gangs, drugs, school kids fighting the teachers and carrying ammunition to school, churches being broken open and robbed, etc, etc. These things crept up on us rather slowly and the government didn't even seem to know. [Remember one of the first things the late Sir Lynden Pindling said when his party lost to the FNM: "I didn't know the people were hurting!"].

I pray for this country every morning -- these are some tough problems we face and I just hope that one day we get a handle on the situation. But one thing the "Rough-neck" pastor said on a talk show yesterday might explain some of the problem. Speaking to the host, he said: "You know, when we were young, we had parents who helped to discipline us, but the kids today have baby daddies and baby mommies"

So he was noting how difficult it is to bring up children in a one-parent home, or in a home where one or both parents were not committed!

I don't know what the bible left out in terms of geneologies, wasn't dodging either... Name one, just one hermaphrodite listed in Biblical geneology.

So since you say the church is to be blamed perhaps more than the government which does not enforce its own laws ...

Now what? Toss out church and I guess religion as well? I addressed this before in another thread when I answered Truthseeker's post. It is not religion that is at fault but the way it is EXECUTED (and I can find no better word that I'd rather use) and who's responsible for the way that religion is executed?

Should we get rid of ethics and morality as well? You tell me. From where, did we obtain this "morality" and "ethics" you speak of? Are they credible societies (oops, I mean sources) that we should follow THEIR version of ethics and morality?

I'm confused now ... what do you propose to be a solution to our moral purgatory? The very same thing you propose to me: an EITHER/OR situation. Either we fulfill "our" moral obligations or we reject them. Thing is...not everybody believes in "morality" moreover a borrowed brand of morality.
I think it starts with each individual wanting to be a better person,
trouble is people don't turn out that way all by themselves, the churches and government are supposed to be guiding forces - but nobody wants either of their help/support/controls. I wonder why?

Let's just get rid of churches and the laws of the state - I doubt we can get much worse than we already are.
OR, those that attend them could "prune" the churches and WE rethink the laws of OUR state.


As you said, the church can only preach the gospel -- they can't go and grab people by the scruff of the neck and MAKE them do he right thing. Rather it is not supposed to. It can, and it has coerced others into doing their perceived "right" thing to do.

The government on the other hand has the power to make laws and to enforce laws. The church cannot do this (and shouldn't even if they had the power). And the Church does not enforce laws?! ROTFLMAO

[Remember one of the first things the late Sir Lynden Pindling said when his party lost to the FNM: "I didn't know the people were hurting!"] And why did he not know? Isn't he supposed to be a leader FOR the people? Isn't a leader supposed to be ONE with his people? Isn't the leader voted into power based on a majority vote here in the Bahamas? Isn't the majority of the Bahamas professed Christian? So would it be safe to guage that the majority of the people that votes the leader into power is professed Christian?

I pray for this country every morning -- these are some tough problems we face and I just hope that one day we get a handle on the situation. But one thing the "Rough-neck" pastor said on a talk show yesterday might explain some of the problem. Speaking to the host, he said: "You know, when we were young, we had parents who helped to discipline us, but the kids today have baby daddies and baby mommies"

So he was noting how difficult it is to bring up children in a one-parent home, or in a home where one or both parents were not committed! So imagine the damage done when leaders of a nation are supposedly "leading" when they are not committed to their tenure of being stewards for the people.

Indeed.

That's why I say attack the government.

The church can't enforce laws, but the government made them and can enforce them - and is obligated to enforce them.

Christians and non-christians attempt to change the laws by convincing the government. Some church leaders are more invlved with politics than they should be - does that make all christians bad?

Parietal - you say you are an unconventional christian, does that make you bad because the christian pastors/preachers are doing the wrong thing?

Let's put it another way ...

if we were to remove religion, all religion from our nation, do you think we can depend on our government and parents of our nation to get things in order?

I shudder to think that people open their mouths and attack christianity and morality that does not have power to make a single person to live right. While the governement does what it wants to us and lets the criminals do as they please.

how many criminals - perhaps unofficial - do we have in power right now in our government and all the government before them.

every government has criminals in it, every police force has criminals in it, every church and religion has criminals - does that make any of those groups bad?

a barrel of apples can be ruined by one spoilt apple, but does that mean that the whole barrel is spoilt?

we can read of crime everyday in our papers and become fearful to live in our country - when in reality our crime rate is really low. the papers hardly ever print how many lives were saved last night, or how many educated people just graduated last year, etc.

you can't condemn the whole bahamas because the good guys are never showcased.

Indeed.

That's why I say attack the government.

The church can't enforce laws, but the government made them and can enforce them - and is obligated to enforce them.
Here's what is going to come of this. I will then respond by saying the government of the Commonwealth of The Bahamas was put into power by the Christian majority influenced by Christian religious leaders. You will then disagree. Perhaps, we should agree to disagree then?

The government is SUPPOSED to do the will of the people that elected them to power. When the government does not do this, who's responsibility is it to light fire under the government's backside? As a citizen of The Commonwealth am I NOT entitled to scrutinize as I am subject to scrutiny?

Christians and non-christians attempt to change the laws by convincing the government. Some church leaders are more invlved with politics than they should be - does that make all christians bad? It makes them bad when they don't have the testicular/ovarian fortitude to rectify the situation they instigated.

Parietal - you say you are an unconventional christian, does that make you bad because the christian pastors/preachers are doing the wrong thing? To some of them I will be perceived as bad. To some of them I will be considered a negativity.

Let's put it another way ...

if we were to remove religion, all religion from our nation, do you think we can depend on our government and parents of our nation to get things in order? Again, I'll say it again, if you (hypothetically speaking) want to keep Christmas as a holiday...Go ahead. But don't, under God's yellow sun, feed me bullskate about "Christ is the reason for the season" when even in the Bible Christ left instructions as to what to do in rememberance of him.
It is the execution of religion, or how religion is carried out that I may sometimes object to. I am not recommending that we remove religion.

I shudder to think that people open their mouths and attack christianity and morality that does not have power to make a single person to live right. While the governement does what it wants to us and lets the criminals do as they please.
No offense meant, but you have alot more shuddering to come if the majority of the Bahamian voters have their right to vote so easily manipulated by the nonsense RELIGIOUS "leaders" who do nothing but follow fashion.

how many criminals - perhaps unofficial - do we have in power right now in our government and all the government before them.

every government has criminals in it, every police force has criminals in it, every church and religion has criminals - does that make any of those groups bad? You tell me, do you want a rapist deciding what happens to your family over cocktails in a quasi-drunken stupor?
Do you want pastors coercing votes from Bahamians to get what they want from would-be politicians?

a barrel of apples can be ruined by one spoilt apple, but does that mean that the whole barrel is spoilt? You've asked the wrong person this question. I am allergic to penicillin. If there is ONE moldy apple within the barrel...I will not touch it.
You may, but I won't.

we can read of crime everyday in our papers and become fearful to live in our country - when in reality our crime rate is really low. the papers hardly ever print how many lives were saved last night, or how many educated people just graduated last year, etc.

you can't condemn the whole bahamas because the good guys are never showcased.

Oh! I can and I do, I reserve the right of scrutiny and judgement concerning institutions and establishment. I NEVER surrender my right to scrutinize to The Bahamian Government or to religion.
Why aren't the "good guys showcased"? Even Delroy can attest to this, Delroy and I went to many a summer artwork shop. He and I have seen corruption first hand (at artwork shop level), and I cannot void that experience because another wishes me to.
They say, "Evil prospers when good men do nothing." I have seen corrupt leaders put into power, and anyone who speaks ill of their agenda...black-balled into obscurity.

Newspapers hardly print it because they choose not to print it, is that not an example of corruption and bias?

Again, do what ever you wish concerning religion, but when it comes to the country I have just as much say as you. I expect to still have my rights afforded to me whether I am in the minority or not.
When a professed Christian majority attempts to take away the rights of valid citizens, then calls them hypocrites for holding the professed Christian majority and their elected government up to scrutiny...I consider said situation the equivalent of a barrel of moldy apples.

Parietal, man oh man, you seem to be sure that the Christian leaders are responsible for a bad government or governments being elected. This is difficult for me to believe. Maybe I am not aware of the facts.

Tell you what, just before the last election (in which I didn't vote 'cause I was fed up UP TO HERE with politicians, etc,), I was a bit fed up also with my pastor because he would not give his congregation ANY guidelines as to who to vote for! All he said was to let our conscience be our guide. He does not believe the church should advise in such matters.

I would have preferred him to advise us as to which party or canditate he felt was best, etc, reason being, I have much respect for his intelligence, wisdom and judgement! Were it not so, I would probably find another church! But that's only me!

You mentioned about "pruning" the churches in answer to bsmbahamas (post#9). Christ is Head of the church and I don't think anyone has the authority, except for very serious behaviour, to kick someone out of His church!

Also, you seem to be "mixing" the laws of the land with church rules and policies. The church regulations are not hard and fast rules like the laws of the land. Break church rules and you will likely suffer a mild penalty, NOT thrown into jail or fined!

The reason I pointed out that the late former Prime Minister said "he didn't know the people were hurting" was just to illustrate that not all leaders know everything!

Also, not all who profess christianity are christians, and even if they were, that is NO guaranty that they have the smarts to elect a good government!

The majority of people in any country is ignorant, and politicians know this by heart. It helps them greatly to win and keep their membership in government. I am surprised you don't seem to be taking this into consideration in your discussion!

I believe one of the first things to consider when the government is not doing the will of the people is WHY? I believe they know just what to do for the betterment of the Bahamas, but WHY aren't they doing it? One explanation could well be they are quite satisfied with the status quo and don't want it to change. Most of them are lawyers, ya know, and the more trouble there is, the more money lawyers make!

I do not know that Christian leaders are the ones to try to help and "encourage " governments to do the right thing. We the people put them in power, they are our baby, so it is the responsibility of us all to help mould them into the entity we'd like them to be.

This is why I believe Yorick Brown (on a different thread) has the best solution for this, ie, educating the people. This is what is needed to give them the knowledge and wisdom to elect the right people and mould them, if need be, into the kind of representatives we need.

"Knowledge is power; it causes men to become masters. Ignorance is a vice; it causes men to be slaves".

This is why I believe Yorick Brown (on a different thread) has the best solution for this, ie, educating the people. This is what is needed to give them the knowledge and wisdom to elect the right people and mould them, if need be, into the kind of representatives we need.

"Knowledge is power; it causes men to become masters. Ignorance is a vice; it causes men to be slaves".

Yes, agreed. I have a question for you. Is there a difference, if so how big a difference between one interested in learning and one interested in being taught?

Tell you what, just before the last election (in which I didn't vote 'cause I was fed up UP TO HERE with politicians, etc,), I was a bit fed up also with my pastor because he would not give his congregation ANY guidelines as to who to vote for! All he said was to let our conscience be our guide. He does not believe the church should advise in such matters.
Excellent! Your pastor appears to have begun the pruning process. If you understand why he believes the way he does, you will see where the pruning takes place.



You mentioned about "pruning" the churches in answer to bsmbahamas (post#9). Christ is Head of the church and I don't think anyone has the authority, except for very serious behaviour, to kick someone out of His church! 2 Corinthians [3:17] Christ gave the authority. Your pastor recognizes this and HONORS it.
Many pastors don't. Malachi [1:6]
The Bible you hold in high regard tells you MANY follow the broad path to destruction yet few follow the narrow one to salvation. I think it safe to categorize anarchy as destructive, wouldn't you?
And those who voted this volatile government into power? The majority. Specifically, the majority of Bahamian citizens who voted. Please note, the majority of Bahamian citizens (95% I have heard, but have yet to verify) are professed Christian.

Also, you seem to be "mixing" the laws of the land with church rules and policies. The church regulations are not hard and fast rules like the laws of the land. Break church rules and you will likely suffer a mild penalty, NOT thrown into jail or fined! No sir, not I. And the explanation in the quote above provides it even clearer. When the majority votes a government into power, that government is to represent the majority. So, when said government is elected, and laws are proposed, who do you think those laws are going to best represent and benefit?

The reason I pointed out that the late former Prime Minister said "he didn't know the people were hurting" was just to illustrate that not all leaders know everything! Even back in the day, Jethro had the common sense to tell Moses to appoint 70 men to watch over Israel or he'd be swamped - is there not anybody today with the intelligence to do the same? I know leaders don't know everything, they're not supposed to, they don't have to, but at the VERY least they can appoint people to address the concerns of the people and have the appointees deal with their care and/or report back to the leader.
The late former Prime Minister you spoke of was out of touch, I believe he didn't know at that point because his interests lay invested in other...matters.
Also, not all who profess christianity are christiansWell aware of this also. Matthew [10:34] This is why I suggested pruning.

and even if they were, that is NO guaranty that they have the smarts to elect a good government! You're right about that one, Yahweh addressed that when they asked for a king back in the day.

The majority of people in any country is ignorant, and politicians know this by heart. It helps them greatly to win and keep their membership in government. I am surprised you don't seem to be taking this into consideration in your discussion! I do take this into consideration, that was the basis of my initial post on this thread. These concepts of "morality" and "ethics" where do they come from and why do we rely on them to work for us when they haven't worked for the nations that introduced them? Is this not the earmark of a country who adopts principles in ignorance?

I believe one of the first things to consider when the government is not doing the will of the people is WHY? I believe they know just what to do for the betterment of the Bahamas, but WHY aren't they doing it? One explanation could well be they are quite satisfied with the status quo and don't want it to change. Most of them are lawyers, ya know, and the more trouble there is, the more money lawyers make! Agreed. But WHY are lawyers so influential? Where DO they get their power from?

I do not know that Christian leaders are the ones to try to help and "encourage " governments to do the right thing. We the people put them in power, they are our baby, so it is the responsibility of us all to help mould them into the entity we'd like them to be. And/or perhaps prune them to grow the way we wish them too?