no boongying allowed in the defense force :hammer::hammer:

So you mean to tell me that these individuals had their residency revoked but are still here some five years later to start another riot? Does anyone in immigration have any balls? This country is crumbling under the weight of ineptness, idiocy, and corruption.

Mr. Brown, once again, these videos are quite accurate. As I said, I have been to Abaco, visited Marsh Harbour, and talked to the residents of the Mud. If you want to dispute the facts depicted in these videos, then you should either have first-hand knowledge or at least get to know the facts, otherwise, your comments lack validity.
You want to appear to wax intellectual on these matters, but you are merely a long-winded, misguided person who refuses to see this situation for what it really is.

These persons have taken clear advantage of a scenario that initially was a goodwill effort. Now this Bahamaland is reaping the aftereffects of relatively unhindered illegal immigration.

Instead of admitting this you instead want to lambaste me for telling the truth and pointing out the clear facts. Every resident of the Mudd, Pigeon Pea, and every other immigrant squatting community is a criminal in the eyes of the law. If they truly had any respect for this country of The Bahamas, they would have voluntarily left such lifestyles long ago.


It is a fact that most illegal Haitian Immigrants work in the most menial jobs in our society, the ones, no matter how much the salary, you simply cannot find many Bahamians seeking that sort of work, i.e. farm hand, gardener, domestic worker, etc. Most economists will admit that the illegal Haitian worker contributes significantly to the Bahaman economy. Theirs is obviously a matter of economic desperation. Persons like yourself who have never been in their shoes, somehow think that this makes them more ethical or hardworking, but the reality is that once a person enters a country that is more economically sound, one does tend to work harder in an effort to better one's life. I speak from first hand experience in that matter.

Do not for one second think of trying to use that weak excuse as a reason for illegal immigration to be allowed in this nation.



Furthermore, I have yet to be accosted at an intersection, when stopped at a red traffic light, by a Haitian “jonser” coming to my car and begging for “dollar”. In general, Haitians, legally or illegally, seek gainful employment and are as industrious as the average Bahamian. They do not seek handouts, only honest hard work.I've seen several and the reason why you probably do not know that they are Haitian is because those younger ones look just like you or me.

Is there some reason why you are openly demeaning the Bahamian people as if we somehow are less hardworking?

You clearly have no idea of the impact of economic hardship upon a person's will to work and their drive to make life better. You actively are taking their desperation and attempting to put it alongside the Bahamian work ethic. Desperation gives the illusion of a person who is more hardworking every time, but does not make that person more so. It just points out the fact that they are more motivated to do a task. Continue on your jaded analysis of Bahamians versus Haitians though. People will see you for the traitor you are in due time.


As you well know, most illegal Haitians are economic refugees, not unlike Bahamians about a century ago in Southern Florida. Haiti is the poorest nation in our region, with 75% unemployment rate, a life expectancy of 48 years and an extremely high infant mortality rate. After decades of neo-colonial interference, international ostracising, political and civil unrest, corruption, unstable governments, the Haitian’s economy is almost nonexistence. With the average income at about $500 dollars per annum, I will venture to say that there are some Bahamians who could be one pay check away from a similar financial fate.Thank you for the history lesson, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. Many black nations tend to do things the wrong way until reality hits us in the face.

The Bahamas is slowly learning the lesson that illegal immigration can undermine a nation's stability and overall identity. Many persons like yourself have not seen this as yet and still are waving the flag of human rights instead of the flag of your country.

There is a reason why borders are created. There is a reason why laws are made. There is a reason why those who do not belong to this nation should apply in a proper manner to the government BEFORE stepping into this nation. Hardship does not override law, especially in a small nation such as ours where the ripple effect of illegal immigration is more than obvious. This situation has gone on for so long that some in their circle actually have an attitude that Bahamians cannot and should not tell them that they cannot come here. With persons like you spurring them on, I wouldn't blame them.

Bahamians tend to forget their history; in the early twentieth century the sponging industry here in our country was destroyed by a parasite, which resulted in the collapse of the economy. Many Bahamians fled to Southern Florida seeking economic relief, and were forced to work in menial jobs. My grandmother was one of those Bahamians, at the tender age of sixteen she left Nassau and was employed as a laundress in Key West. She spoke bitterly of the harsh working conditions and the rampant racism in the “Jim Crow” south. Homesick and overcome with grief, she returned to her native Bahamas and became a pioneer in the straw vendors’ industry here in the capital. Huge difference. Bahamians for the most part came back home. Our country was home and those Bahamians were all hired LEGALLY.

Pure conjecture, you do not know what motivated these individuals to post these videos. I submit to you that they may only want the truth to be told in regards the Haitian Dilemma in the Bahamas.
These videos are neither misguided nor biased. In fact, we are all in the same “boat”, both Haitians and Bahamians. It appears that you have chosen to ignore the regional conditions, and those in Haiti, in particular, which have forced these economic refugees to flee their homeland in the first place. The “Haitian Dilemma” was not created by Haitians alone; therefore, it is asinine to expect them to resolve it alone. Haiti does not exist in a vacuum, and nor does the Bahamas. No, let me tell you why they post them...

Those videos make it seem like Haitians are the victims and in many societies victims often are allowed to do as they please. They are not held to the standards of law because people out of pity and short-sightedness give them a break. That documentary, as I said before, tells a jaded story - One that disregards the blatant breaking of the Bahamas' immigration and housing laws and one that shows absolute ignorance of how citizenship is attained in this nation.

I submit to you, the majority of those who participate in what has been coined as a “culture of corruption” in our Bahama Land are native Bahamians. But, no matter the causation, or the ethnicity of these corrupt officials, their actions are illicit, and in principle, they violate the laws of the Bahamas in the same manner as the illegal immigrant. [/B]You submit such assertions, but they are largely incorrect. Again, you are showing your clear bias against Bahamians.

I submit to you, we cannot point the finger at this young person’s parents for our Immigration Department’s inefficiency. Inefficiency? What are you talking about?You have your head so far up the rear end of "human rights" that you have disregarded completely the fact that not everyone who applies for citizenship in this country will get it.

In other words, they take a gamble to get here, openly break numerous laws, utilize our severely limited "third world" resources, remain ignorant of citizenship requirements and then out of the blue get pissed when they do not get citizenship. That is the situation here.

We have people who abuse this nation's systems for decades and then when their application for citizenship is rejected, they then want to cop an attitude. This is The Bahamas! Citizenship for them is a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT. The laws of the Commonwealth of the Bahamas back me 100% on this one.

Are you Bahamian? Is the law of the Bahamas your law to be upheld at all costs or is it something to be stepped on and disregard for foreign entities?

Your traitorous and disloyal answer already has been made more than apparent.

Your skewed reasoning and sense of ethics would have society not only punish the serial rapist for his crimes, but his parents as well because they were responsible for birth; this is utter nonsense.Let me call you on this pure BS.

A person who doesn't get their citizenship because both of their parents are not Bahamian is not being punished. THEY JUST DIDN'T GET IT! IT'S JUST THAT SIMPLE. Under Bahamian law, not everyone who applies is granted citizenship. Can you understand this clear fact?


Note: This story was not meant to be “endearing”, nor is it an isolated one. This Haitian-Bahamian young lady, who was born and raised in our society, succeeded against all odds. In fact, Haitian-Bahamians make up the majority of students who excel in our education system, including at the tertiary level. Again, spouting your subtle "superiority" BS that is pro-Haitian, anti-Bahamian and empirically FALSE in regards to the education system. Your statements are symptomatic of someone who wishes to paint Bahamians as inferior to Haitians. You are making a false statement and using it as an excuse for why illegal immigration should be allowed to continue.

This reminds me of a situation at the Defence Force, shortly after the present Commodore assumed command, he declared that he was “weeding out all the Haitians (Haitian-Bahamian) from the Force”, and will have them “dismissed” immediately. IMO, these Haitian-Bahamians should have been commended for choosing to serve the country of their birth. It must have been extremely demoralising for these young marines, whose citizenship application were probably loss in that “great void” on the top of Hawkins Hill, to be told, “Your service is no longer desired, you are dismissed from the Force”.
Even the U.S. Armed Forces, under certain circumstances, allow foreign nationals to serve in their armed services, and as an added bonus, these foreign nationals, after a designated period , are automatically eligible to apply for an accelerated application for full-citizenship. Do you even know why the present Commodore took such steps? Apparently not.

Did you know that there were instances where Bahamians of Haitian descent refused direct orders from their commanding officers in regard to immigration exercises? Did you know that the presence of some of these officers also accounted for escapes, immigrants being alerted of raids and other inefficiencies within the force? Do you know how dangerous it was to have such a security risk at the highest levels of our military?

Obviously not.

In such a small nation as ours, and because of the growing presence of those officers, steps were taken to assure that the integrity of the force remained intact. There are other most important reasons why these steps were taken as well, but those will probably never make it to the light of day.

In general, Haitian-Bahamians are some of the more disciplined marines, and are very conscientious about going to sea and enforcing the laws of the Bahamas. You obviously have something against Bahamians, as you keep on making claims that those of Haitian descent are more "this" and more "that". Your bias in this debate is clear.

You obviously are of the opinion that Haitian-Bahamian is better than Bahamian.

Traitor.

Just a note about your hyphenation complex. Hyphenation is used to connotate an inferior culture versus a superior culture. Those who are referred to by hyphenation are often viewed as less of the latter culture as they are a member of the former.

You are doing every Bahamian of Haitian descent a disservice when you call them a Haitian-Bahamian as the perceived inferior culture is often the one in front of the hyphen. Don't believe me? Then ask me how many American-Bahamians there are in this society.

If you want to keep on using it though...

Firstly, I would venture to say that most Haitians are probably more cognizant of our immigration laws than we are. The facts of the matter are, when a child is born and raised in any society he or she adopts the culture of that society. Even if the parents are illegal and were deported, at age eighteen these children are still eligible to apply for Bahamian Citizenship. Obviously they are not as aware of Bahamian immigration laws, because we still have this prevailing misinformation going around that anyone born here should get citizenship automatically.

Presently, there is a backlog of citizenship applications at Immigration. The result is a cadre of angry young Haitian-Bahamians, born and raised in the Bahamas, but disenfranchised and living on the fringe of society because of this exasperating situation. IMO, we need to move expeditiously, realistically, and judiciously to resolve these issues plaguing our society. WHAT VIABLE SOLUTIONS DO YOU OFFER, Mr. Brown, may I remind you that our constitution guarantees the fundamental rights of all persons, including the Haitian Immigrant? Get your information right! The immigration department has in recent times been computerized and is more efficient than it has ever been. The backlog, according to my information, has been diminished significantly for the first time in years.

Those same disenfranchised, angry persons need to calm down and understand that their situation is one that was caused by their parents lack of vision and misinformation regarding their ability to gain citizenship. Anger over a situation that is completely out of one's control does not solve anything. We Black people need to realize this fact. We are too reactive and volatile, versus being proactive and not putting ourselves in a tough situation to begin with.

My viable solution is to deny all new permits for applicants of those countries with present numbers of more than 1/10 of this country's total population. Persons who believe that the end justifies the means will not be able to gain a foothold in such an environment. These persons are not being responsible and are clearly taking advantage of this situation, so the matter will be dealt with in a manner that assures this nation's stability and prevents future generations from facing such tough challenges, such as possibly not getting citizenship.

I submit to you, Mr. Brown, if these Haitian parents fled their homeland because of hash adverse conditions, do you REALISTICALLY suppose that they want their child, who were born and raised in the Bahamas, to return to Haiti and suffer the same fate? In essence, these individuals are stateless. [/B] IN REALITY THEY ARE NOT STATELESS.

If their mother is Haitian and their father is Haitian, THEY are HAITIAN. Even the Haitian ambassador agrees with this fact, but no one ever comes to the embassy to apply for and pick up their Haitian passports

it would not have been in the white man’s best interest to have a stabilised Haiti, back in the 1800s, as even today. Haiti symbolises black resilience over centuries of oppression....

(RACIST BS THAT THE WHITE MAN IS STOPPING HAITI AND THE CARIBBEAN FROM SUCCEEDING)

...In fact, the process of Haiti’s stabilization will remain stagnant until the US changes its racist foreign policies, and recognises that it is in their best interest to lean greater support to Haiti’s development. Oh, I understand now...

It's the white man that is stopping Haiti and other Caribbean countries from succeeding, eh? Let me get this right, you want to call the US racists and then expect them to "lend greater support to Haiti’s development"?

You are intellectually challenged.

You really should cease your racist drivel! If you and others of your ilk cannot see that dividing Blacks versus Whites from the outbreak is not conducive to the stability of this true global village, then you are either blind or ignorant of how the world works. On one hand you speak of unity and on the other you speak of pushing another segment of this world away because of their color.

Which is it?


It is rather pathetic that you continue to imply that the abuses which the illegal immigrants encounter are, basically, due to their “unlawful status”. The concept is simple. Don't break the law and you will be protected by the law. Simple concept, but completely foreign to those who lack vision and forethought.

IMO, the greater risk to our national security is not the illegal Haitian economic Refugee, but by far, those “xenophobic” individuals of our citizenry, whose prejudicial views are in contrast to the democratic principles that our nation was built on, and, directly or indirectly opposes the rule of law and natural justice. [/B]And you would be absolutely incorrect on several counts.

Bahamians are not xenophobic and democracy is only as stable as the laws that protect it. Foreign entities in no way should be allowed to break the law and then attempt to invoke it for their own interests
these are legitimate concerns as the Haitian population is estimated at approximately 90,000 out of a nation of 300,000 people. Such numbers clearly constitute a national security risk and this nation needs to do something about it.

This country is a poster child for why illegal immigration should be prevented or curbed as much as possible.

The risk is being taken by Bahamians, those who continue to perpetuate the illegal trade through their illicit and corrupt practices. You keep on accusing "Bahamians", but why don't you speak the truth in this instance? Where is your Haitian-Bahamian label now?

Moreover, the “irresponsible behaviour” has been exhibited by our nation leaders, not Haitian parents, for their failure to find viable solutions, both long term and short term to the Haitian Dilemma.[/B] So, I guess the persons having these kids with full knowledge of the difficulties in attaining citizenship bear no responsibility in this matter?

Get a clue. If they didn't come here illegally, THERE WOULD BE NO PROBLEM TO FIND A VIABLE SOLUTION FOR!

[B]FYI, it has been said that the first PM of the Bahamas was from Haiti, by way of Jamaica. There are many prominent Bahamas who are of Haitian roots. Human migration has taken place, regardless of the circumstances, since the existence of man. As for your assertion about the first PM, that is false propaganda, spurred on by this open subversion of Bahamian culture (of which YOU are a part).

As for human migration, yes it has occurred from the existence of man, but it always has been the bane of our existence, as one civilization always overcomes another. History tends to favor the invading entities, which is why immigration laws were created in modern societies, to prevent such occurrences from taking place.


[B]Firstly, until you have witnessed hundreds of dead bodies floating in the ocean, as a result of drowning after an overcrowded Haitian sloop capsized, or until you have experienced seeing the flesh of a dead body peel off the its arm as you tried to pull it out of the sea, or until you had to dig a mass grave on a deserted cay to bury the hundreds of fatalities, or until you have experienced the smell of death and personally witnessed these horrific events, do NOT presume to lecture me on the GRAVITY of the situation.
Running away from a situation never solved anything and many of those who faced what you just spoke of were indeed running away, instead of standing strong in their own country and helping to fix it.

Your view of this situation is warped completely in favor of Haitians as you have gone in this debate from implying that Haitians are "more intelligent and hardworking" to attempting to invoke sympathy for the poor decision-making capabilities of those who step onto those rickety Haitian sloops.

In your eyes it seems like they have done nothing wrong or do not need to take responsibility for their actions at all. Has anyone ever considered that it is due to such a lack of foresight and vision that Haiti is the way it is today? Now this same type of carefree "take advantage of the situation" attitude is putting much stress upon The Bahamas and dares to change the very face of it! Can you not see that this is how a nation is destabilized? Can you not see that on top of our own problems, having an element of persons who only care about their own survival at our expense only hurts the overall country?

To use a most appropriate analogy - too many people who jump in a boat without disregard of how that boat will maintain its stability will all perish. Get it? I hope so.

[B]Firstly, the truth does not “demonise”, Mr. Brown, it merely reveals what is evident. You are FAR from a purveyor of truth. Your scandalous and treasonous words only expose you for the inherent traitor that you are to your nation and its people.

You are not looking out for the stability of this country or else you would not be bringing such skewed arguments to the table.

We have too many people looking at this situation on a short term basis. Borders and immigration laws exist for a purpose. While you "humanitarians" among us get your "feel-good" emotions satiated from defending what you think is a good cause, you inadvertently are undermining the roots of the very society which sustains you.

This immigration situation has to be dealt with. We SEE the problems it creates, but one "heart tug" later some of us forget about the problems and refuse to deal with the causes.

Loyalty to one's country is non-negotiable. Either you have it or you don't. If any citizen can look at a threat/challenge to their society and deny its existence or help to perpetrate that threat, then their very integrity needs to be questioned.

So you mean to tell me that these individuals had their residency revoked but are still here some five years later to start another riot? Does anyone in immigration have any balls? This country is crumbling under the weight of ineptness, idiocy, and corruption.
I am uncertain of the exact charges levied against these individuals by the police. But to my understanding the police was not squeaky clean in their deportment during the incident either. No matter what, they are still entitled to equal protection under the law. I digress...

I live in Nassau Village. On the night of the riot, darkness had fallen, as I approached the main entrance to “the village” off Solider Road, I saw yellow police tape draped across Taylor Street and heavily armed men in plain clothes standing out in front. They were not wearing any reflective vests that identified them as law enforcement officers. As I slowed my vehicle down, I assumed it was a police officer who informed me that the road was closed to vehicular traffic. IMO, this was the first of many RBPF blunders I had witnessed that evening, as unformed officers should have been used to re-direct traffic, or at least the plain clothes police should have worn their "RBPF" vests. It looked like a scene out of a third world island republic.

I then drove west on Solider Road and turned onto a side street near Sugar Kid Bow Bar, which eventually lead me onto Alexander Boulevard, the main road in the heart of “the village”. IMO, If the police had properly cordoned off the “hot zone”, I should not have been able to drive straight into the disturbance. As I proceeded in an eastwardly direction, “the village” looked like a “war zone”, it was very surreal. I did not realise the gravity of the situation until I saw a uniformed police holding a shotgun in front of yellow tape blocking off a section of the road where a police cruiser was totally destroyed, it was burnt to a “crisp”. The officer quickly directed me off the main thoroughfare onto a side street.

Finally, I made my way to the eastern section of "the village", parked and exited my vehicle. I saw a number of residents watching the mêlée from a safe distance. To my amazement, the police riot squad was also staged in this area, out of sight of the rioters. In the distance, I could see a crowd of angry young men, armed with rocks and bottles. In contrast, the police were heavily armed, but without proper body armour to protect themselves from missiles. It seemed that the riot squad was kept at bay in hopes that the situation would be brought under control using conventional means.

After a lull in the disturbance, I witnessed a mob of police officers walked down Taylor Street and charge after the rioters on Alexander Boulevard, firing their weapons in the air. It looked like a scene out of the “wild, wild west.” The rioters retaliated with a barrage of rocks and bottles and the police quickly retreated, scrambling from the hail of missiles thrown by the throng. This scenario of the police charging and then retreating from a counter attach by the rioters went on for quite some time, I am surprised that no one was shot or killed during these exchanges.

IMO, the police appeared to be ill-equipped for an emergency of this nature. I did not see any armoured personal vehicle equipped with water cannons to disperse the crowd. Of course, a helicopter would have been ideal, to get an aerial view of the “hot zone”, provide flood lights, loud speakers, and if needed, tear gas to disperse the crowd. In the US, some urban police departments have began using a high tech sound wave weapon designed to disperse crowds by firing concentrated beams of sound at 150 decibels, causing intense pain. Our police did not even have conventional loud speakers to communicate to the crowd.

The riot squad remained in the staging area and was never deployed. IMO, a show of force by the riot squad could have had a psychological effect on the crowd, establishing authority, and brought a quick end to the incident. The squad could have taken a position on the main Alexander Boulevard and maintained a presence until the next day. Also, the police should have established check points at the main entrances leading into and out of the village.

Eventually, the riot squad retreated to a waiting police bus and left the area. Later, in the evening the remaining police officers exited the village. The following morning, the news reported that the young men started to riot again, until Mother Pratt, then Minister of National Security made a personal appearance in “the village”, and “appealed” for calm. She promised to meet with the young men, privately, to listen to their concerns.

Later that evening, Mother Pratt conducted a public town meeting at a local church in “the village”, where she promised to establish a community police presence. She is one politician who kept her promise, and the Nassau Village Community Police has been a proven success. It was the first time I had witnessed a sustained police presence in my community, which had now partnered with the police. An after school program and a youth marching band was formed. Moreover, the level of violent crime, including murder, was reduced significantly in Nassau Village. And the police, being closer to the people, received good "intelligence" information, which contributed significantly to the detection or prevention of crime.

However, when Minister Turnquest, the present Minister of National Security, came to power, he single-handedly destroyed the Community Police Program when he removed the police officers from the grass roots areas of our urban centre. I grew up in New York City when “URBAN RENEWAL” was the watch word in America’s inner cities. In fact, the Community Police Program was a "god sent" in the high crime/ low income devastated areas of the city. I participated in these programs, both as a youth, and as an adult, when I volunteered as a baseball coach in the Police Athletic League. Yes, Ladies and Gentlemen, I saw community policing from both sides, and the program WORKS.

Mother Pratt not only had the right concept, she also lived close to the people and processes a unique understanding of what was needed to improve their quality of life. On the contrary, Minister Turnquest grew up with “a silver spoon in his mouth”, and appears incapable of relating to the experiences of the people who lives “ova da hill”. He simply lacks “empathy and compassion”. In fact, a copy of my "National Plan to Combat Crime", right off the thread here on Bahamas Issues, was sent to him and he has not even acknowledged it.

It was said that the riots in Nassau Village was sparked by the unprofessional actions of police officers called to the scene of an accident. There was a communication breakdown, as one of the parties spoke only Creole. Some of you may say if one is living in the Bahamas, then he or she should learn to speak English. True, but I submit to you, had these officers acted more prudent, perhaps they could have radioed for a Creole speaking colleague to render assistance, it is possible that this tragic incident could have been avoided all together.

The reality is we live in an urban centre where some individuals speak very little English, and Creole is the second dominant language. IMO, it is vital that our security forces have a cadre of foreign language interpreters to deal with incidents of this nature. In fact, I believe that all police officers should be required to take a basic conversational course in Creole, in order to be more efficient in carrying out their duties.

Lastly, I call for an immediate restoration of the COMMUNITY POLICE PROGRAM, especially in Nassau Village, where properly trained community police officers have a fixed presence in our grass roots areas.

[B]I am uncertain of the exact charges levied against these individuals by the police. But to my understanding the police was not squeaky clean in their deportment during the incident either. No matter what, they are still entitled to equal protection under the law. I digress...
Defending the pro-Haitian stance and still adamantly anti-Bahamian, eh? Of course, your understanding cannot be trusted as it is skewed, in favor of the immigrants. In your entire block of writing you did not mention once that the immigrants should have maintained some sense of restraint or take a bit of responsibility in this matter.


I happen to live in Nassau Village. On the night of the riot darkness had fallen as I approached the main entrance to the village off Solider Road. I saw yellow police tape and heavily armed officers in plain clothes blocking the road into the village. They were not wearing reflective vests that identified them as the RBPF. As I slowed my vehicle down, an officer informed me that the road was closed. IMO, this was the first of many blunders by the police that I witnessed that evening, as they should have used unformed officers, or at least wore reflective vests which clearly identified them as police.This was during the first riot, which sparked initial awareness that certain immigrant elements had brought their tendency to riot into this country.

Since then the police force has updated their gear and their riot tactics. The Millar's Creek exercise proved the effectiveness of their new strategies as they used both Defense and Police Force personnel WITH translators.


I then drove west on Solider Road and turned onto a side street near Sugar Kid Bow Bar, which lead me onto the main strip, in the centre of the village. If the police had properly cordoned off the “hot zone”, I should not have been able to drive straight into the heart of the disturbance. As I drove East on Alexander Boulevard, it looked like a “war zone”, very surreal. I was unaware of the gravity of the situation until I saw a police holding a shotgun in front of a police cruiser that was burnt to a “crisp”. The officer directed me off to a side street.As said previously, this happened during a time years ago before our forces realized what they were dealing with.

Eventually I ended up in the Eastern section of the village, where I saw a number of residents watching the melee from a safe distance. To my amazement, the police riot squad was also staged in this area, out of sight of the rioters. I saw a crowd of angry young men, armed with rocks and bottles in the distance. In stark contrast, the police were heavily armed, but without proper body armour to protect them from missiles. I believe the riot squad was kept at bay in hopes that the situation would be brought under control using conventional means.

I witnessed a mob of police officer charge after the rioters while firing their weapons in the air. It looked like a scene out of the “wild, wild west.” The rioters retaliated with a barrage of rocks and bottles. The police retreated, scrambling from the hail of missiles thrown by the throng. This scenario of the police charging and then retreating went on for a quite some time, I am surprised that no one was injured or killed during these exchanges.

In general, the police appeared to be ill-equipped. I did not see any armoured personal vehicle equipped with water cannons to disperse the crowd. Or course, a helicopter could have given the police an are have began using a high tech sound wave weapon designed to disperse crowds by firing concentrated beams of sound at 150 decibels, causing intense pain. Our police did not even have conventional loud speakers to communicate to the crowd.Again, since then...updated gear...updated strategies.

The Nassau Village Community Police was the first time I have ever witnessed a sustained police presence in my community. In fact, they established an after school program and a youth marching band. With the community police presence in the village, the level of violent crime, including murder, was reduced significantly. IMO, Minister Turnquest, the present Minister of National Security, was wrong to remove the police officers from these grass roots community based programs. He single-handedly destroyed the Community Police Program, which was a proven success.The removal of urban community centers was not Minister Turnquest's decision alone and there are more elements at play in that scenario which you have conveniently left out, such as money, personnel, security and equipment issues involving each center.

You are sounding like the Alien of old with your veiled partisan hackery.


It was said that the riot in Nassau Village was sparked by the unprofessional actions of police officers called to the scene of an accident. There was a communication breakdown, as one of the parties spoke only Creole. Some of you may be saying if one is living in the Bahamas, then he should learn to speak English. But, I submit to you, a prudent officer would have radioed for a Creole speaking police to render assistance. If this was done, perhaps this entire incident could have been avoided.In present day exercises, translators are used. The police force DID learn their lesson, so stop railing about what you "think" caused the problem in the past and update your "awareness" of our police and defense forces.

Where is your national pride? Where is your faith in BAHAMIAN police and defense forces? Is the only view that you have of our police force one that is from five years ago? Where is your ire at these persons who have brought this volatility directly from their country to ours? Are they not responsible in the least for the cost of the extra forces, training and equipment that are needed to be utilized in dissolving such situations?


Lastly, the reality is we live in an urban centre where some individuals speak very little English, and Creole is the second dominant language. IMO, it is vital that our security forces have a cadre of foreign language interpreters to deal with incidents of this nature. In fact, I believe that all police officers should be required to learn some basic conversational Creole to be more efficient in carryin out their duties.Those steps have been taken long time. Update your view of this country and stop defending nonsense.

Actually, that brings up another very good idea for permit issuance - A mandatory written/verbal English examination to ensure that security and police forces can do their job and that we do not have automatic segregation of persons within our communities because of a language barrier.

You want to appear to wax intellectual on these matters, but you are merely a long-winded, misguided person who refuses to see this situation for what it really is.
These persons have taken clear advantage of a scenario that initially was a goodwill effort. Now this Bahamaland is reaping the aftereffects of relatively unhindered illegal immigration.
Instead of admitting this you instead want to lambaste me for telling the truth and pointing out the clear facts. Every resident of the Mudd, Pigeon Pea, and every other immigrant squatting community is a criminal in the eyes of the law. If they truly had any respect for this country of The Bahamas, they would have voluntarily left such lifestyles long ago.
Theirs is obviously a matter of economic desperation. Persons like yourself who have never been in their shoes, somehow think that this makes them more ethical or hardworking, but the reality is that once a person enters a country that is more economically sound, one does tend to work harder in an effort to better one's life. I speak from first hand experience in that matter.
Do not for one second think of trying to use that weak excuse as a reason for illegal immigration to be allowed in this nation.
I've seen several and the reason why you probably do not know that they are Haitian is because those younger ones look just like you or me.
Is there some reason why you are openly demeaning the Bahamian people as if we somehow are less hardworking?
You clearly have no idea of the impact of economic hardship upon a person's will to work and their drive to make life better. You actively are taking their desperation and attempting to put it alongside the Bahamian work ethic. Desperation gives the illusion of a person who is more hardworking every time, but does not make that person more so. It just points out the fact that they are more motivated to do a task. Continue on your jaded analysis of Bahamians versus Haitians though. People will see you for the traitor you are in due time.
Thank you for the history lesson, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. Many black nations tend to do things the wrong way until reality hits us in the face.
The Bahamas is slowly learning the lesson that illegal immigration can undermine a nation's stability and overall identity. Many persons like yourself have not seen this as yet and still are waving the flag of human rights instead of the flag of your country.
There is a reason why borders are created. There is a reason why laws are made. There is a reason why those who do not belong to this nation should apply in a proper manner to the government BEFORE stepping into this nation. Hardship does not override law, especially in a small nation such as ours where the ripple effect of illegal immigration is more than obvious. This situation has gone on for so long that some in their circle actually have an attitude that Bahamians cannot and should not tell them that they cannot come here. With persons like you spurring them on, I wouldn't blame them.
Huge difference. Bahamians for the most part came back home. Our country was home and those Bahamians were all hired LEGALLY.
No, let me tell you why they post them...
Those videos make it seem like Haitians are the victims and in many societies victims often are allowed to do as they please. They are not held to the standards of law because people out of pity and short-sightedness give them a break. That documentary, as I said before, tells a jaded story - One that disregards the blatant breaking of the Bahamas' immigration and housing laws and one that shows absolute ignorance of how citizenship is attained in this nation.
You submit such assertions, but they are largely incorrect. Again, you are showing your clear bias against Bahamians.
Inefficiency? What are you talking about?You have your head so far up the rear end of "human rights" that you have disregarded completely the fact that not everyone who applies for citizenship in this country will get it.
In other words, they take a gamble to get here, openly break numerous laws, utilize our severely limited "third world" resources, remain ignorant of citizenship requirements and then out of the blue get pissed when they do not get citizenship. That is the situation here.
We have people who abuse this nation's systems for decades and then when their application for citizenship is rejected, they then want to cop an attitude. This is The Bahamas! Citizenship for them is a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT. The laws of the Commonwealth of the Bahamas back me 100% on this one.
Are you Bahamian? Is the law of the Bahamas your law to be upheld at all costs or is it something to be stepped on and disregard for foreign entities?
Your traitorous and disloyal answer already has been made more than apparent.
Let me call you on this pure BS.
A person who doesn't get their citizenship because both of their parents are not Bahamian is not being punished. THEY JUST DIDN'T GET IT! IT'S JUST THAT SIMPLE. Under Bahamian law, not everyone who applies is granted citizenship. Can you understand this clear fact?
Again, spouting your subtle "superiority" BS that is pro-Haitian, anti-Bahamian and empirically FALSE in regards to the education system. Your statements are symptomatic of someone who wishes to paint Bahamians as inferior to Haitians. You are making a false statement and using it as an excuse for why illegal immigration should be allowed to continue.
Do you even know why the present Commodore took such steps? Apparently not.
Did you know that there were instances where Bahamians of Haitian descent refused direct orders from their commanding officers in regard to immigration exercises? Did you know that the presence of some of these officers also accounted for escapes, immigrants being alerted of raids and other inefficiencies within the force? Do you know how dangerous it was to have such a security risk at the highest levels of our military?
Obviously not.
In such a small nation as ours, and because of the growing presence of those officers, steps were taken to assure that the integrity of the force remained intact. There are other most important reasons why these steps were taken as well, but those will probably never make it to the light of day.
You obviously have something against Bahamians, as you keep on making claims that those of Haitian descent are more "this" and more "that". Your bias in this debate is clear.
You obviously are of the opinion that Haitian-Bahamian is better than Bahamian.
Traitor.
Just a note about your hyphenation complex. Hyphenation is used to connotate an inferior culture versus a superior culture. Those who are referred to by hyphenation are often viewed as less of the latter culture as they are a member of the former.
You are doing every Bahamian of Haitian descent a disservice when you call them a Haitian-Bahamian as the perceived inferior culture is often the one in front of the hyphen. Don't believe me? Then ask me how many American-Bahamians there are in this society.
If you want to keep on using it though...
Obviously they are not as aware of Bahamian immigration laws, because we still have this prevailing misinformation going around that anyone born here should get citizenship automatically.
Get your information right! The immigration department has in recent times been computerized and is more efficient than it has ever been. The backlog, according to my information, has been diminished significantly for the first time in years.
Those same disenfranchised, angry persons need to calm down and understand that their situation is one that was caused by their parents lack of vision and misinformation regarding their ability to gain citizenship. Anger over a situation that is completely out of one's control does not solve anything. We Black people need to realize this fact. We are too reactive and volatile, versus being proactive and not putting ourselves in a tough situation to begin with.
My viable solution is to deny all new permits for applicants of those countries with present numbers of more than 1/10 of this country's total population. Persons who believe that the end justifies the means will not be able to gain a foothold in such an environment. These persons are not being responsible and are clearly taking advantage of this situation, so the matter will be dealt with in a manner that assures this nation's stability and prevents future generations from facing such tough challenges, such as possibly not getting citizenship.
IN REALITY THEY ARE NOT STATELESS.
If their mother is Haitian and their father is Haitian, THEY are HAITIAN. Even the Haitian ambassador agrees with this fact, but no one ever comes to the embassy to apply for and pick up their Haitian passports
Oh, I understand now...
It's the white man that is stopping Haiti and other Caribbean countries from succeeding, eh? Let me get this right, you want to call the US racists and then expect them to "lend greater support to Haiti’s development"?

You are intellectually challenged.
You really should cease your racist drivel! If you and others of your ilk cannot see that dividing Blacks versus Whites from the outbreak is not conducive to the stability of this true global village, then you are either blind or ignorant of how the world works. On one hand you speak of unity and on the other you speak of pushing another segment of this world away because of their color.
Which is it?
The concept is simple. Don't break the law and you will be protected by the law. Simple concept, but completely foreign to those who lack vision and forethought.
And you would be absolutely incorrect on several counts.
Bahamians are not xenophobic and democracy is only as stable as the laws that protect it. Foreign entities in no way should be allowed to break the law and then attempt to invoke it for their own interests
Such numbers clearly constitute a national security risk and this nation needs to do something about it.
This country is a poster child for why illegal immigration should be prevented or curbed as much as possible.
You keep on accusing "Bahamians", but why don't you speak the truth in this instance? Where is your Haitian-Bahamian label now?
So, I guess the persons having these kids with full knowledge of the difficulties in attaining citizenship bear no responsibility in this matter?
Get a clue. If they didn't come here illegally, THERE WOULD BE NO PROBLEM TO FIND A VIABLE SOLUTION FOR!
As for your assertion about the first PM, that is false propaganda, spurred on by this open subversion of Bahamian culture (of which YOU are a part).
As for human migration, yes it has occurred from the existence of man, but it always has been the bane of our existence, as one civilization always overcomes another. History tends to favor the invading entities, which is why immigration laws were created in modern societies, to prevent such occurrences from taking place.
Running away from a situation never solved anything and many of those who faced what you just spoke of were indeed running away, instead of standing strong in their own country and helping to fix it.
Your view of this situation is warped completely in favor of Haitians as you have gone in this debate from implying that Haitians are "more intelligent and hardworking" to attempting to invoke sympathy for the poor decision-making capabilities of those who step onto those rickety Haitian sloops.
In your eyes it seems like they have done nothing wrong or do not need to take responsibility for their actions at all. Has anyone ever considered that it is due to such a lack of foresight and vision that Haiti is the way it is today? Now this same type of carefree "take advantage of the situation" attitude is putting much stress upon The Bahamas and dares to change the very face of it! Can you not see that this is how a nation is destabilized? Can you not see that on top of our own problems, having an element of persons who only care about their own survival at our expense only hurts the overall country?
To use a most appropriate analogy - too many people who jump in a boat without disregard of how that boat will maintain its stability will all perish. Get it? I hope so.
You are FAR from a purveyor of truth. Your scandalous and treasonous words only expose you for the inherent traitor that you are to your nation and its people.
You are not looking out for the stability of this country or else you would not be bringing such skewed arguments to the table.
We have too many people looking at this situation on a short term basis. Borders and immigration laws exist for a purpose. While you "humanitarians" among us get your "feel-good" emotions satiated from defending what you think is a good cause, you inadvertently are undermining the roots of the very society which sustains you.
This immigration situation has to be dealt with. We SEE the problems it creates, but one "heart tug" later some of us forget about the problems and refuse to deal with the causes.
Loyalty to one's country is non-negotiable. Either you have it or you don't. If any citizen can look at a threat/challenge to their society and deny its existence or help to perpetrate that threat, then their very integrity needs to be questioned.

Flip Yorick, I never want get into a verbal fight with you. Man das a mouthful and a pageful and ya know these thread pages does be long.

You want to appear to wax intellectual on these matters, but you are merely a long-winded, misguided person who refuses to see this situation for what it really is.
Perhaps, some of our fellow readers on BI may have the same sentiments for both you and I.

These persons have taken clear advantage of a scenario that initially was a goodwill effort. Now this Bahamaland is reaping the aftereffects of relatively unhindered illegal immigration.
I beg to differ; I believe that the farmers in Abaco were motivated by greed when they started hiring illegal Haitian Nationals as farm hands, rather than pay a higher salary to Bahamians, including National Security, etc They pay the Haitians well below minimum wage; yes, we Bahamians are “reaping the after-effects”, but we cannot ignore our won complacency in the illicit Haitian trade.

Instead of admitting this you instead want to lambaste me for telling the truth and pointing out the clear facts. Every resident of the Mudd, Pigeon Pea, and every other immigrant squatting community is a criminal in the eyes of the law. If they truly had any respect for this country of The Bahamas, they would have voluntarily left such lifestyles long ago.
Your sense of reasoning is beyond me; as you well know, most illegal Haitians are gainfully employed by Bahamians. Hence, we are also in violation of our own Immigration and Labour Laws. Moreover, illegal Haitians are here largely because of the harsh economic conditions in their homeland. Yet, you expect them to return en mass to the same desperate conditions in the name of “respect” for the Bahamas? Get real.

What about those Bahamians who hire the illegal immigrants or those corrupt officials who accept bribes to “regularise” their status? In order to get “respect”, we, Bahamians must first learn to “RESPECT OURSELVES”.

Theirs is obviously a matter of economic desperation. Persons like yourself who have never been in their shoes, somehow think that this makes them more ethical or hardworking, but the reality is that once a person enters a country that is more economically sound, one does tend to work harder in an effort to better one's life. I speak from first hand experience in that matter.

Do not for one second think of trying to use that weak excuse as a reason for illegal immigration to be allowed in this nation.
Let me emphasise here, NEVER have I presented myself as an apologist for the illegal Haitian Immigrant. I have merely presented a realistic picture of the Haitian Dilemma, and challenged my fellow Bahamians to put aside their prejudices and misconceptions, so that we may began an honest and open dialogue about common sense solutions.

I've seen several and the reason why you probably do not know that they are Haitian is because those younger ones look just like you or me.
True, but perhaps they are probably “more” like you or me, than unalike us. Haitian children raised and educated in the Bahamas are more apt to adopt our culture, than that of Haiti. Common sense dictates.

Is there some reason why you are openly demeaning the Bahamian people as if we somehow are less hardworking?
While offering what were my personal observations, I concluded that, “Haitians, legally or illegally, seek gainful employment and are as industrious as the average Bahamian”. Your inference that I was being “openly demeaning” to my people is beyond me. Further, your assertions are baseless and without merit.

You clearly have no idea of the impact of economic hardship upon a person's will to work and their drive to make life better. You actively are taking their desperation and attempting to put it alongside the Bahamian work ethic. Desperation gives the illusion of a person who is more hardworking every time, but does not make that person more so. It just points out the fact that they are more motivated to do a task. Continue on your jaded analysis of Bahamians versus Haitians though. People will see you for the traitor you are in due time.
This is not a case of “us against them”, or “Bahamians versus Haitians”. I talked about the “The Mis-Education of the Negro” in my last post, but I failed to mentioned that this is a text written by Carter G. Woodson (December 19, 1875 - April 3, 1950), an African-American historian, author, journalist and the founder of Black History Month. Check out the following link:

http://asabagna.wordpress.com/2007/09/03/the-mis-education-of-the-negro-in-the-21st-century-a-case-study/

Your statement above is typical of the “mis-educated Negro”. Further, judging from your own line of reasoning, no matter his or her motivation, it appears that the illegal Haitian would be a much more desirable employee than the average Bahamian.

Thank you for the history lesson, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do things. Many black nations tend to do things the wrong way until reality hits us in the face.

The Bahamas is slowly learning the lesson that illegal immigration can undermine a nation's stability and overall identity. Many persons like yourself have not seen this as yet and still are waving the flag of human rights instead of the flag of your country.
Interesting enough, I have never mentioned “human rights” in any of my utterance on this particular thread. What I did refer to, on more than one occasion, was the fundamental rights guaranteed to all under the Constitution of the Bahamas.

There is a reason why borders are created. There is a reason why laws are made. There is a reason why those who do not belong to this nation should apply in a proper manner to the government BEFORE stepping into this nation. Hardship does not override law, especially in a small nation such as ours where the ripple effect of illegal immigration is more than obvious. This situation has gone on for so long that some in their circle actually have an attitude that Bahamians cannot and should not tell them that they cannot come here. With persons like you spurring them on, I wouldn't blame them.
I believe I should re-state my intent, as you have maligned and distorted my contributions throughout this thread; I do not believe our country, with its limited recourses, can continue to absorb the large influx of economic refugees from Haiti, thus, my purpose here is to encourage Bahamians to realistically examine the problem and devise common sense solutions. Moreover, the “Haitian Dilemma” is arguably one of the most important social concerns of our nation.

On the other hand, Mr. Brown, you come on BI and continue to point fingers, rather than explore common ground we can build on. IMO, this is totally ineffectual and a waste of time and efforts.

Huge difference. Bahamians for the most part came back home. Our country was home and those Bahamians were all hired LEGALLY.
It appears that you have missed my point, again. We can sit here and debate the difference between Bahamians seeking relief in Southern Florida during economic hard times and the Haitian dilemma in the Bahamas today. However, the bottom line is, we, as Bahamians, should be cognisant of the fact that the economic pendulum can swing the other way at anytime. Case in point, our touristic economy took off only after the embargo imposed on the Cubans by the U.S. following Castro’s communist revolution. Moreover, if we are going to find realistic solutions to the Haitian Dilemma, then we must be cognizant of the antecedents.

Those videos make it seem like Haitians are the victims and in many societies victims often are allowed to do as they please. They are not held to the standards of law because people out of pity and short-sightedness give them a break. That documentary, as I said before, tells a jaded story - One that disregards the blatant breaking of the Bahamas' immigration and housing laws and one that shows absolute ignorance of how citizenship is attained in this nation.
We can debate the truthfulness of these videos until the “cows come home.” Therefore, let us agree to disagree, and not allow the main topic to be side track. I invite fellow other members of BI to view these videos and post their comments, or or PM me. Moreover, I challenge all to post the link to a video with an opposing view.

You submit such assertions, but they are largely incorrect. Again, you are showing your clear bias against Bahamians.
Obviously, we must be living in two distinctly separate Bahamas. The following is an excerpt from the “Bahamas Community Blog" January 2007:

http://www.bahamascommunity.com/blog/?archive=2007,1

The editor of the Punch had this to say on the matter: "Our culture of corruption has resulted in many Bahamians not knowing the difference between right and wrong. We have degenerated into a nation of people who are unprincipled, unscrupulous, unethical, immoral and greedy."

Driving his point home, the Punch editor added, "We have sunk into a cesspit of moral decay, double-standards, hypocrisy, dishonesty, stealing, lying and corruption."

So, Mr. Brown, is the editor of the Punch, which claims to be “the Bahamas biggest selling paper”, is also largely incorrect in suggesting too many Bahamians are morally bankrupt and steeped in corrupt ways? But, before you answer, I offer the following except from the official biography of the Prime Minister and Minister of Finance, the Rt. Hon. Hubert Alexander Ingraham:

http://www.un.int/bahamas/biography_%20of_the_Prime_Minister.htm

”His public criticism of the then government’s inaction in the face of damaging revelations of corruption in high places by the 1984 Commission of Inquiry resulted in his dismissal from the Cabinet and in 1986, his expulsion from the PLP.”

Inefficiency? What are you talking about? You have your head so far up the rear end of "human rights" that you have disregarded completely the fact that not everyone who applies for citizenship in this country will get it.
I beg to differ; the late Anna Nicole’s saga, where her application for citizenship was fast tracked, is sufficient proof that with “money”, all things are possible in Bahamian Society. Whose head was up where in this particular case, Mr. Brown?

In other words, they take a gamble to get here, openly break numerous laws, utilize our severely limited "third world" resources, remain ignorant of citizenship requirements and then out of the blue get pissed when they do not get citizenship. That is the situation here.
You conveniently left out, “contributed significantly to our economy by providing a cheap labour force at almost slave wages to unscrupulous Bahamian businessmen who violate our immigration and labour laws by hiring illegal immigrants”. You are a hypocrite extraordinaire, Mr. Brown.

We have people who abuse this nation's systems for decades and then when their application for citizenship is rejected, they then want to cop an attitude. This is The Bahamas! Citizenship for them is a PRIVILEGE, not a RIGHT. The laws of the Commonwealth of the Bahamas back me 100% on this one.
The immigration laws of the Bahamas are not at issue, Mr. Brown, it is the corruption and inefficiency that these applicants have to encounter that needs attention. We could either discuss ways of ensuring fairness and efficiency in the system, or we can pretend normal. What say you, Mr. Brown?

Again, spouting your subtle "superiority" BS that is pro-Haitian, anti-Bahamian and empirically FALSE in regards to the education system. Your statements are symptomatic of someone who wishes to paint Bahamians as inferior to Haitians. You are making a false statement and using it as an excuse for why illegal immigration should be allowed to continue.
You sound just like a paranoid schizophrenic, Mr. Brown, how you got all this from a simple but true statement is beyond me. Ask any educator in the public education system, btw, I used to teach in that system and, again, I am speaking from my experience.

Do you even know why the present Commodore took such steps?
I believe the more immediate question should have been how did these Haitian-Bahamian, without the proper documents, slip through the vetting process, in the first place?

Did you know that there were instances where Bahamians of Haitian descent refused direct orders from their commanding officers in regard to immigration exercises? Did you know that the presence of some of these officers also accounted for escapes, immigrants being alerted of raids and other inefficiencies within the force? Do you know how dangerous it was to have such a security risk at the highest levels of our military?
In each of the situations you sited, although probable, I have yet to hear of one single case. In any event, the ultimate responsibility lies with the divisional officer, as he is responsible for everything the marines under this charge does, or fails to do. I do not know of one single case where a marine was dismissed for failure to carry out the immigration laws of the Bahamas while a marine on the Defence Force. Moreover, if you know of factual information, then it is also your responsibility as a citizen of our Beloved Bahama Land to report it to the police corruption unit.

In such a small nation as ours, and because of the growing presence of those officers, steps were taken to assure that the integrity of the force remained intact. There are other most important reasons why these steps were taken as well, but those will probably never make it to the light of day.
Mr. Brown. Why are you trying to create a false sense of importance with your hearsay evidence? Again, if there were any individuals who slipped through the vetting process, then the person in charge of military intelligence ought to be called in on the carpet to explain his unit’s ****-up, or be relieved from duty. Otherwise, I challenge you to report your “information” to the police corruption unit or simply sit down, and shut up!!!

You obviously have something against Bahamians, as you keep on making claims that those of Haitian descent are more "this" and more "that". Your bias in this debate is clear.
Mr. Brown, you are obviously a pseudo-intellectual, with perhaps borderline dyslexia, as you seem to have a problem interpreting the written English language; however, BI’s electronic record speaks for itself.

My viable solution is to deny all new permits for applicants of those countries with present numbers of more than 1/10 of this country's total population. Persons who believe that the end justifies the means will not be able to gain a foothold in such an environment. These persons are not being responsible and are clearly taking advantage of this situation, so the matter will be dealt with in a manner that assures this nation's stability and prevents future generations from facing such tough challenges, such as possibly not getting citizenship.
Remind me to vote for you when you run for President for Life of the Bahamas, and suspend the constitution, of course. Again, all are entitled to equal protection under the law, Mr. Brown.

If their mother is Haitian and their father is Haitian, THEY are HAITIAN. Even the Haitian ambassador agrees with this fact, but no one ever comes to the embassy to apply for and pick up their Haitian passports
Haitian laws do not supersede Bahamas Laws here in the Bahamas, Mr. Brown. Our laws state that these individuals born on our soil are entitled to apply for Bahamian citizenship at age 18. Where is your patriotism, Mr. Brown; Go to the back of the class!

It's the white man that is stopping Haiti and other Caribbean countries from succeeding, eh? Let me get this right, you want to call the US racists and then expect them to "lend greater support to Haiti’s development"?
Mr. Brown, you are a mis-educated Negro. The majority of Haitians wish to migrate to the United States, NOT the Bahamas. Our nation stands as a buffer zone, between Haiti and the US, it would only behove the U.S. to assist in the stabilization of Haiti. Otherwise, with the increased influx of Haitian Economic Refugees, we would be literally overrun, and the next destination would be Southern Florida. Reading in fundamental, it is a fact that the US “wet foot/dry foot” illegal immigrant policy is racist at best. You are intellectually challenged indeed. .

You really should cease your racist drivel! If you and others of your ilk cannot see that dividing Blacks versus Whites from the outbreak is not conducive to the stability of this true global village, then you are either blind or ignorant of how the world works. On one hand you speak of unity and on the other you speak of pushing another segment of this world away because of their color.
I challenge you to refute anything I have written on my previous post on the subject of global economic racism. All I could do is encourage you to read and expand your understanding of global economics. Remember, most of the G-8 nations received their enormous wealth and riches from centuries of free labour by black slaves, and the exploitation of the natural resources of its former colonial possessions.

If a developing nation goes to the IMF or the Word Bank for help with a development project. They receive a loan, at a high interest rate; and find themselves in indebtedness to these organisations for decades. Then these organisations began to dictate government policies to these countries, and even foreign policy and international investment policies. That is way I refer to them as neo-colonialist. (PM me and we can discuss these subject in greater lengths).

As for your assertion about the first PM, that is false propaganda, spurred on by this open subversion of Bahamian culture (of which YOU are a part).
Either you are a spin doctor for a certain political organisation or you cannot be born here in the Bahamas. I am now convinced that you are Haitian-Bahamian yourself, and doing all you can to cover up your roots. PM me and we can discuss the first prime minister’s roots further.

I beg to differ; I believe that the farmers in Abaco were motivated by greed when they started hiring illegal Haitian Nationals as farm hands, rather than pay a higher salary to Bahamians, including National Security, etc They pay the Haitians well below minimum wage; yes, we Bahamians are “reaping the after-effects”, but we cannot ignore our won complacency in the illicit Haitian trade. Again, placing the blame on Bahamians in general. You really have something against us don’t you? You appear to enjoy taking one specific set of scenarios and overlaying it across the broad spectrum of the citizens of this nation, thus casting blame over the entire lot of us.

Stop it.
Moreover, illegal Haitians are here largely because of the harsh economic conditions in their homeland. Yet, you expect them to return en mass to the same desperate conditions in the name of “respect” for the Bahamas? The Bahamas spends millions of dollars deporting thousands of illegal immigrants every year and the total number each year keeps on climbing. That itself is a clear case of the Government of The Bahamas returning those persons "en masse" to the same desperate conditions that they came from.

The expectation is that if one breaks the laws of the Commonwealth of The Bahamas, then they cannot remain here, regardless of the harsh economic conditions of their place of origin.

I suggest that YOU get real and face the fact that there is a proper procedure to apply for economic refugee status and it doesn't involve sneaking into the country under the cover of darkness and hiding in the back of the bush. It involves reporting oneself to the proper authorities in short order once hitting these shores.

The way that it is presently being done “en masse” is illegal and breaks the laws of this Bahamaland. We are a small developing nation of 350,000 people. We cannot deal with an influx of millions of people.

What about those Bahamians who hire the illegal immigrants or those corrupt officials who accept bribes to “regularise” their status? In order to get “respect”, we, Bahamians must first learn to “RESPECT OURSELVES”. [/B]Again, in your view Bahamians are the problem, not the people who do not even have any right to be here without directly reporting themselves as refugees.

Also, those corrupt Bahamians are in the minority. I don’t hire illegal immigrants, so get that “we” out of this equation. Speak for yourself and stop generalizing.

Let me emphasise here, NEVER have I presented myself as an apologist for the illegal Haitian Immigrant. I have merely presented a realistic picture of the Haitian Dilemma, and challenged my fellow Bahamians to put aside their prejudices and misconceptions, so that we may began an honest and open dialogue about common sense solutions.The "common sense" solutions are already being implemented. You are a day late and a dollar short. Ingraham's plan involves putting senior officers in charge of relevant organizations to ensure that the corrupt are weeded out and efficiency is boosted.

Change is occurring, but you are so misinformed that you believe that Bahamians have the same attitudes that we did back in the 80's and still are prejudiced regarding Haitians. We have 2nd and 3rd generation Bahamians of Haitian descent in this country. This is the year of 2008, remember? Those former attitudes have just about faded, along with the older generation who thought along those lines. Get a clue man!


While offering what were my personal observations, I concluded that, “Haitians, legally or illegally, seek gainful employment and are as industrious as the average Bahamian”. Your inference that I was being “openly demeaning” to my people is beyond me. Further, your assertions are baseless and without merit.Your words are clear and I have them ready to copy and paste. Here are just a few of your assertions in your attempt to paint those of Haitian descent as "more achieving" versus Bahamians.

Haitian-Bahamians are some of the more disciplined marines...

Haitian-Bahamians make up the majority of students who excel in our education system, including at the tertiary level…

…it has been said that the first PM of the Bahamas was from Haiti, by way of Jamaica. There are many prominent Bahamas who are of Haitian roots.
Those are your own words, which were placed along with your accusations that Bahamians in general are corrupt, morally deficient and inept.

I need say nothing else.

However, the bottom line is, we, as Bahamians, should be cognisant of the fact that the economic pendulum can swing the other way at anytime. Case in point, our touristic economy took off only after the embargo imposed on the Cubans by the U.S. following Castro’s communist revolution. Moreover, if we are going to find realistic solutions to the Haitian Dilemma, then we must be cognizant of the antecedents. [/B] But of course...

…the veiled, threat-like reminder of "what if the Bahamas was to ever become like Haiti". Only those who are jealous of this country and have petty mindsets ever say things like that. It's the equivalent of saying, "I can't get my own way, so I hope what's happening to me doesn't ever happen to you" - while all the while hoping that it does to teach us a lesson.

You cannot hide your malicious intent against this nation, can you?

We can debate the truthfulness of these videos until the “cows come home.” Therefore, let us agree to disagree, and not allow the main topic to be side track. No. The facts are clear and those videos are a smear campaign against this nation of The Bahamas.

As I said before, the persons in that video are showing incomplete pieces of their lives, as well as completely disregarding the basic rules and guidelines as they pertain to immigration and citizenship in The Bahamas. Then on top of that the entire package is wrapped up in a "heart-tugging bow" that makes it seem like The Bahamas and Bahamians are the problem instead of them. The bottom line is that they want The Bahamas laws to change for their purposes, instead of abiding by and respecting the laws they met in place.


So, Mr. Brown, is the editor of the Punch, which claims to be “the Bahamas biggest selling paper”, is also largely incorrect in suggesting too many Bahamians are morally bankrupt and steeped in corrupt ways? I'm on Ivan's payroll. I fully am aware of what he thinks and says.

I also know that he has written more than a few articles about the ongoing "Haitianisation" of this Bahamaland, so there goes your loose argument, right out the window. You blatantly are trying to connect dots that do not quite match up. Do you want to try again?

Nah...

Don't waste my time or any more of Delroy's bandwidth. Your own "source" in this case contradicts your jig-sawed point, but you are so busy nitpicking pieces of information from scattered areas and then trying to connect them that you only are showing your lack of awareness in this matter.


[B]I beg to differ; the late Anna Nicole’s saga, where her application for citizenship was fast tracked, is sufficient proof that with “money”, all things are possible in Bahamian Society. One example does not a country make. You are grasping for straws and in this case making Shane Gibson the representative for every Bahamian in the Immigration Department. That is unfair and disrespectful to every employee of the Department of Immigration who does abide strictly by the laws of this Bahamaland.

See. You can't help yourself. You have nothing but negative opinions of The Bahamas, the Bahamian Government and the Bahamian people.


[B]You conveniently left out, “contributed significantly to our economy by providing a cheap labour force at almost slave wages to unscrupulous Bahamian businessmen who violate our immigration and labour laws by hiring illegal immigrants”. You conveniently left out the fact that no LEGAL permit holder needs to work at substandard wages by mandate of the laws of this commonwealth of THE BAHAMAS. Again I keep on telling you - if they do things the right way, they are protected by the law. When they don't come into this country in a proper manner, they leave themselves subject to exploitation and thereby become victims to their own, as well as Bahamians. the law cannot protect those who hide from it!

[B]You sound just like a paranoid schizophrenic, Whatever. Your attempt at a "low blow" only shows your desperation.


[B]In each of the situations you sited, although probable, I have yet to hear of one single case. In any event, the ultimate responsibility lies with the divisional officer, as he is responsible for everything the marines under this charge does, or fails to do. I do not know of one single case where a marine was dismissed for failure to carry out the immigration laws of the Bahamas while a marine on the Defence Force. Moreover, if you know of factual information, then it is also your responsibility as a citizen of our Beloved Bahama Land to report it to the police corruption unit. Been done already and steps have been taken long ago and continue to be.

LATE AGAIN!


you are obviously a pseudo-intellectual, with perhaps borderline dyslexia, as you seem to have a problem interpreting the written English language; Again, more insults against my person. I'll start a log.


[B]Haitian laws do not supersede Bahamas Laws here in the Bahamas, Mr. Brown. Our laws state that these individuals born on our soil are entitled to apply for Bahamian citizenship at age 18. Key words: ENTITLED TO APPLY. This means that they are Haitians until their citizenship application is approved. They are NOT stateless, contrary to popular opinion.

It is only common sense that if they have to "apply" for citizenship at the age of 18 that they are not already Bahamian citizens. Also, remember that it is not guaranteed that they will get citizenship. CITIZENSHIP IN THEIR CIRCUMSTANCE IS A PRIVILEGE AND NOT A RIGHT! The law says so.


[B]Mr. Brown, you are a mis-educated Negro. I’ll add that to the list of insults as well. Feeling the heat are we? Can’t keep up?

it is a fact that the US “wet foot/dry foot” illegal immigrant policy is racist at best. My goodness, you really have fed into that racist BS you spew, haven’t you?

Don’t you realize how the US works? Governmental lobbying by a strong Cuban contingent caused that wet foot/dry foot policy to come into effect. You are just one of the many black persons who attempt to make everything racial and have a huge chip on their shoulder because of it. Persons like you never understand how the world works because you only see in terms of race and not power.

Remember, most of the G-8 nations received their enormous wealth and riches from centuries of free labour by black slaves, and the exploitation of the natural resources of its former colonial possessions. EVERY DOMINANT NATION FROM TIME BEGAN GAINED THEIR DOMINANCE ON THE BACKS OF PEOPLE FROM CONQUERED NATIONS!

Nations rise and fall. Such is the way that humankind has progressed. Get over it. Rise above it and stop being resentful about it. Your own petty jealously and resentment is what keeps you from moving forward and gaining power.
If a developing nation goes to the IMF or the Word Bank for help with a development project. They receive a loan, at a high interest rate; and find themselves in indebtedness to these organisations for decades. Then these organisations began to dictate government policies to these countries, and even foreign policy and international investment policies. And there is a way out from these types of situations but smaller nations will not be able to implement such stratagems for the next 20-30 years. The governments who want to escape that vicious cycle can quite easily. The problem is that too many of these “developing” countries have invested extremely little in preparing upcoming generations to be fit and capable to run their nation with power, intelligence and with honor.
I refer to them as neo-colonialist. I’ve been there and done that regarding the black power movement vibe - Been much deeper than you ever will be in fact. While I did capture the hope which was portrayed in the eyes, words and dreams of those in my grandfather’s generation, further analysis revealed that something happened in later generations which has warped the concept into one that on the surface speaks of pride and positivity, but harbors deep negativity and poisonous concepts. Little good will come of it in its present state as the current holders of these ideologies are neither prepared for power or know what true power really is.

At this point, most of it is a farce held up by the ego of those looking for some semblance of hope. Nothing more.

[B]Either you are a spin doctor for a certain political organisation or you cannot be born here in the Bahamas. I am now convinced that you are Haitian-Bahamian yourself, and doing all you can to cover up your roots. My loyalty is to this nation (extends across both parties) and my Bahamian roots stretch for generations on both sides of my family. Those who know my name, know my roots. Roots that have reached the top rung of power in this country on one side, while being as common as the fishermen who knew how to navigate these waters with nothing more than an oar in their hand on the other.

So to answer your "guesstimations"…No, I don’t work for a certain political organization; Yes, I was born and bred in The Bahamas and; No, your Haitian-Bahamian label does not apply to me, no matter how much you have convinced yourself. (Besides, even if I did have a background of Haitian ancestry, I wouldn't let you bugger it up with silly Americanized "hyphenation" as if I was only "half" Bahamian)

Again, placing the blame on Bahamians in general. You really have something against us don’t you? You appear to enjoy taking one specific set of scenarios and overlaying it across the broad spectrum of the citizens of this nation, thus casting blame over the entire lot of us.
Sounds simplistic, doesn’t it? The bottom line is that the illegal Haitian cannot work in the Bahamas unless the Bahamian businessman HIRES him, i-l-l-e-g-a-l-l-y. Be he the farmer in Abaco, the contractor in Freeport, or the landscaper in Nassau.

The Bahamian Businessman may not be directly responsible for the illegal Haitian coming to the Bahamas; however, whenever he employs an illegal immigrant, he also violates the Immigration and Labour laws of the Bahamas, and contributes significantly to the Illegal Immigrant problem.

I am looking at the problem realistically, NOT pointing fingers, as you are so quick to do, without even analyzing the pertinent facts. You ARE right about one thing though, “we Bahamians are now reaping the after-effects”...

The Bahamas spends millions of dollars deporting thousands of illegal immigrants every year and the total number each year keeps on climbing. That itself is a clear case of the Government of The Bahamas returning those persons "en masse" to the same desperate conditions that they came from.
The reality is, we are a small island nation with limited resources. However, these were forced repatriations; on the other hand, your implications were that the legal Haitian Immigrant should somehow voluntarily return to Haiti out of “respect” for the people of the Bahamas. Sounds ludicrous.

Again, in your view Bahamians are the problem, not the people who do not even have any right to be here without directly reporting themselves as refugees.
I never suggested that “Bahamians” were the problem; however, those who engage in the smuggling and hiring of illegal immigrants MUST be held accountable. In fact, I am a strong advocate for increased fines and possible prison terms for anyone who hires an illegal immigrant.

The "common sense" solutions are already being implemented. You are a day late and a dollar short. Ingraham's plan involves putting senior officers in charge of relevant organizations to ensure that the corrupt are weeded out and efficiency is boosted.
I have worked in the public service for a number of years, and have seen the system for what it’s worth. I “hear” your “optimism”, but I do not share in it. I am a pragmatist, even if Prime Minister Ingraham were to follow the dictates of the former Jamaican PM, and appoint reverend gentlemen in key positions of government, their mere presence would not “weed out corruption and inefficiency” in the Government Service.

In general, we must first attempt to change the “CULTURE AND MINDSET” of our people. This “culture of corruption and dishonesty” became deeply embedded in our society after decades of compromising on our moral values and mores. Therefore, we, as a society, will have to DO THE WORK to re-examine our values and transform ourselves through a sustainable national program of reform, i.e. implementation of value-based education in school curriculum, inculcating positive “SOCIETAL VALUES” from primary on up to high school and tertiary levels, where advanced courses in ethics can be offered. All public servants, particularly our security forces, should have mandatory courses in ethical behaviour and organisational values during initial, recurring, and advanced training and professional development.

Moreover, “whistle blower” legislation MUST be enacted to protect the public servant who reports corruption. When I had reported “wrong doings “in my department, I was treated like a “traitor,” rather than a “keeper of the public trust”, and/or “loyal” to the government and people of the Bahamas. In general, those who report corruption are victimised, ostracised and marginalised, instead of being “PROTECTED and REWARDED” for due diligence.

Lastly, individuals appointed to positions of leadership in the government services who abuse their authority by maltreatment of subordinates, corruption practises, and unethical behaviour, should be INVESTIGATED thoroughly, and REMOVED if they have compromised the terms of their high office. Presently, these individuals are usually transferred from one government department to another, where they continue their tyrannical behaviour.

Your words are clear and I have them ready to copy and paste. Here are just a few of your assertions in your attempt to paint those of Haitian descent as "more achieving" versus Bahamians.
Haitian-Bahamians are some of the more disciplined marines...

Haitian-Bahamians make up the majority of students who excel in our education system, including at the tertiary level…

…it has been said that the first PM of the Bahamas was from Haiti, by way of Jamaica. There are many prominent Bahamas who are of Haitian roots.

Those are your own words, which were placed along with your accusations that Bahamians in general are corrupt, morally deficient and inept.
You have FALSELY STATED that I had ACCUSED “Bahamians as being corrupt, morally deficient and inept”. If I had said this, I am certain who would have quoted this verbatim.

Why must you be so negative and argumentative. May I suggest you visit the Bahamas Archives, which is located on Mackey Street near Shirley Street. Ask for assistance in researching famous Bahamans of Haitian decent; You will find the experience enlightening.

lastly, I encourage you to click on the following link and read the academic research paper, entitled, “The Haitian Diaspora in the Bahamas”, by Ria N.M. Treco in its entirety, I find it very informative:

lacc.fiu.edu/research_publications/working_papers/WPS_004.pdf

I need say nothing else.
No thank you, I have heard enough of your gibberish; now would you kindly extricate your foot out of your mouth and think before you speak.

…the veiled, threat-like reminder of "what if the Bahamas was to ever become like Haiti". Only those who are jealous of this country and have petty mindsets ever say things like that. It's the equivalent of saying, "I can't get my own way, so I hope what's happening to me doesn't ever happen to you" - while all the while hoping that it does to teach us a lesson. You cannot hide your malicious intent against this nation, can you?
After reading this nonsense, I OFFER MY HUMBLE APOLOGIES, to those who are diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. On the other hand, Mr. Brown, what is your excuse?

No. The facts are clear and those videos are a smear campaign against this nation of The Bahamas.
Your opinion is simply that, your opinion, it does not make it RIGHT or WRONG, it’s your perception. I challenge those with opposing view to POST their comments.

I'm on Ivan's payroll. I fully am aware of what he thinks and says.
Are you one of those who sell information for cash? Interestingly enough, I had also quoted an excerpt from the official biography of Prime Minister Ingraham, but I see you practice selective reading.”

One example does not a country make. You are grasping for straws and in this case making Shane Gibson the representative for every Bahamian in the Immigration Department. That is unfair and disrespectful to every employee of the Department of Immigration who does abide strictly by the laws of this Bahamaland.
The facts of the matter are, corruption is endemic in the Immigration Department. Of course, there are individual officers who are probably honest and “strictly by the book”. This is not enough, they must take a stand; otherwise, their complacency renders them as guilty as the rogue officers.

You conveniently left out the fact that no LEGAL permit holder needs to work at substandard wages by mandate of the laws of this commonwealth of THE BAHAMAS. Again I keep on telling you - if they do things the right way, they are protected by the law. When they don't come into this country in a proper manner, they leave themselves subject to exploitation and thereby become victims to their own, as well as Bahamians. the law cannot protect those who hide from it!
This is TRUE; however, it does not negate the fact that ALL are entitled to equal protection under the law. Accordingly, if an illegal immigrant is maltreated, or assaulted, the perpetrator, whether Haitian or Bahamian, is subject to arrest and prosecution.

Been done already and steps have been taken long ago and continue to be.
I tend to believe you are not being honest in your writing here. As long-winded as you have been on this thread, IMO, if this was true, you would not have sheared one minute details.

It is only common sense that if they have to "apply" for citizenship at the age of 18 that they are not already Bahamian citizens. Also, remember that it is not guaranteed that they will get citizenship. CITIZENSHIP IN THEIR CIRCUMSTANCE IS A PRIVILEGE AND NOT A RIGHT! The law says so.
Below is a link for the CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF THE BAHAMAS; go to the site to clarify any misconceptions regarding citizenship:

http://www.bahamas.gov.bs/bahamasweb2/home.nsf/vContentW/GOV--About+the+Government--Articles+of+the+Constitution/$file/citizenship.pdf

Moreover, those individuals who are born in the Bahamas and both parents are non-Bahamians, are “STATELESS” until they attain age eighteen, at which time they may make application for Bahamian citizenship.

“a person born in The Bahamas after 9th July 1973 neither of whose parents is a citizen of The Bahamas SHALL be entitled, upon making application on his attaining the age of eighteen years or within thereafter in such manner as may be prescribed, to be registered as a citizen of The Bahamas”.

I’ll add that to the list of insults as well. Feeling the heat are we? Can’t keep up?
This was not meant as a personal attack. The facts of the matter is, most people of colour have been mis-educated. I was inspired to re-read “The Mis-Education of the Negro” by Carter G. Woodson in an effort to gain some perspective to what I was observing in the actions of those of African descent in the Diaspora, here in the Bahamas, as well as the greater Caribbean Community. The spiraling rise in crime, the Disintegration of our societal values, the marginalization of the Haitian-Bahamian population , the culture of corruption and greed, the distruction of the drug trade, exploitation , oppression, etc. I look at our communities throughout the region and the self-destructive behaviors which we indulge in and it hurts my head. The question for isn’t so much: how did we get here? It’s more: why are we stuck here in this vicious cycle of self-destruction?

“When you control a man’s thinking you do not have to worry about his actions. You do not need to send him to the back door. He will go without being told. In fact, if there is no back door, he will cut one for his own special benefit. His education makes it necessary.”

The doctrine of “divide and conquer” is still alive and healthy within the Black/African Bahamian Community at large and right here on BI, in particular. Despite the heated discussion on the Haitian Community vs. The “native” Bahamian Community, we are still all African descendants of the Diaspora, and our history is interconnected. Yet, we are having this unproductive discussion here, that seems to be going nowhere.

I encourage you to read chapters 8 and 9 of the book, “Professional Education Discouraged” and “Political Education Neglected”, and how they relate to how we as a people are mis-educated today and how we can re-educate ourselves on these points in an effort to begin to move from here.

“The Negro, whether in Africa or America, must be directed toward a serious examination of the fundamentals of education, religion, literature and philosophy as they have been expounded to him. He must be sufficiently enlightened to determine for himself whether these forces have come into his life to bless him or to bless his oppressor. After learning the facts in the case, the Negro must develop the power of execution to deal with these matters as do people of vision. Problems of great importance cannot be worked out in a day. Questions of great moment must be met with far-reaching plans.”

My goodness, you really have fed into that racist BS you spew, haven’t you? Don’t you realize how the US works? Governmental lobbying by a strong Cuban contingent caused that wet foot/dry foot policy to come into effect. You are just one of the many black persons who attempt to make everything racial and have a huge chip on their shoulder because of it. Persons like you never understand how the world works because you only see in terms of race and not power.
I only chose to highlight this policy. I know all too well about the Washington lobbyist; but tell me who do you suppose was lobbying for the state department's quota of immigrants allowed into the U.S. each year by region and country. Did you know the Caribbean has one of the smallest quotas as compared to Ireland, which has the highest?

EVERY DOMINANT NATION FROM TIME BEGAN GAINED THEIR DOMINANCE ON THE BACKS OF PEOPLE FROM CONQUERED NATIONS!

Nations rise and fall. Such is the way that humankind has progressed. Get over it. Rise above it and stop being resentful about it. Your own petty jealously and resentment is what keeps you from moving forward and gaining power.
“Petty jealously and resentment”, you say? Now why did I not think of that. Mr. Brown, you seem to have figured out the crux of the problems plaguing nation’s lack of progress. Trust, it’s a lot more complicated than this.

And there is a way out from these types of situations but smaller nations will not be able to implement such stratagems for the next 20-30 years. The governments who want to escape that vicious cycle can quite easily. The problem is that too many of these “developing” countries have invested extremely little in preparing upcoming generations to be fit and capable to run their nation with power, intelligence and with honor.
Oh, ok, so it is a lot more than just petty jealousy and resentment, aye?

I’ve been there and done that regarding the black power movement vibe - Been much deeper than you ever will be in fact. While I did capture the hope which was portrayed in the eyes, words and dreams of those in my grandfather’s generation, further analysis revealed that something happened in later generations which has warped the concept into one that on the surface speaks of pride and positivity, but harbors deep negativity and poisonous concepts. Little good will come of it in its present state as the current holders of these ideologies are neither prepared for power or know what true power really is.
Firstly you know nothing about me, so do not make any presumptions. Secondly, so now that you have outlined some of the problems, what are you prepared to do about it?

At this point, most of it is a farce held up by the ego of those looking for some semblance of hope. Nothing more.
You need to elaborate further, so that I may respond appropriately...

My loyalty is to this nation (extends across both parties) and my Bahamian roots stretch for generations on both sides of my family. Those who know my name, know my roots. Roots that have reached the top rung of power in this country on one side, while being as common as the fishermen who knew how to navigate these waters with nothing more than an oar in their hand on the other.
Fine, but you need not shake your Bahamian roots at me... Trust, my roots are just as extensive. RESPECT is a two-way street. I do not question your loyalty and patriotism. In the future, DO NOT QUESTION MINE...

So to answer your "guesstimations"…No, I don’t work for a certain political organization; Yes, I was born and bred in The Bahamas and; No, your Haitian-Bahamian label does not apply to me, no matter how much you have convinced yourself. (Besides, even if I did have a background of Haitian ancestry, I wouldn't let you bugger it up with silly Americanized "hyphenation" as if I was only "half" Bahamian)
Mr. Brown, stop been so self-righteous. This is a small Bahamas, most of us DO probably have Haitian descendants in our overall genealogy. I have Haitian roots by way of Andros, and proud of it.

I merely used the hyphen as a means of identification, it was not meant to portray anyone as any more or less Bahamian. Man, you need to relax before you catch a “coronary”, you are one tense and hypertensive dude...

agree
how bold wud we be if our living conditions was as bad as haiti and we all tried to go to da US and try to take ova? dats wat dey are practically doin nah, dey are buildin dere own towns and doin some kinds foolishness in da back of those bushes, didnt dey just had a haitian parade? who da heck approved dat? if sumtin isnt done, we will be da 2nd haiti, da only reason why ppl wudnt rush to get dem off da island is because dey do jobs we bahamians are to lazy to do and cant pay us to do.

I agree with you. Dey done had dey parade, watch next dey ga wan holiday and guess wha?? Dey ga get it too. I find it an insult when dey in my country and speaking Creole. Dis an english speakin country, dey come here for a betta life learn ENGLISH and speak it when in public. Speak dat in da privacy of dey own house.

I agree with you. Dey done had dey parade, watch next dey ga wan holiday and guess wha?? Dey ga get it too. I find it an insult when dey in my country and speaking Creole. Dis an english speakin country, dey come here for a betta life learn ENGLISH and speak it when in public. Speak dat in da privacy of dey own house.
Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars, go on line and order "The Mis-education of the Negro", originally published in 1933 by Dr. Carter Godwin Woodson. I guarantee, reading this book will liberate your mind.

Sometimes I wonder if this is the the Bahamas, or is the "Jim crow" south revisited. And we call ourselves a "Christian" nation?

Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars, go on line and order "The Mis-education of the Negro", originally published in 1933 by Dr. Carter Godwin Woodson. I guarantee, reading this book will liberate your mind.
Sometimes I wonder if this is the the Bahamas, or is the "Jim crow" south revisited. And we call ourselves a "Christian" nation?

I dont have to read any book to liberate myself. I do not have a problem with anybody of any nation. I do have a problem when you come into my country illegally and stay illegally and then terrorize it and the citizens of this country. I did not come here on boat nor plane so I do not have to defend myself to you. I would not mind if when they come here they jus work and pay bills just like me but instead they committing crimes and selling drugs. They came into my country, I didnt go into theirs. So I demand respect from them. This is an English speaking country not Creole. So if the Bahamian people speak English out of respect when around them speak English. I do not speak Creole so how do I know that they are not plotting on me.

I wish some of our Politians would grow balls and do something with the illegal immigration problem. It started with a parade next they ga wan more and if they dont get it what will happen??? Another riot??? Why should I feel unsafe in my own country cause of them??? I love my country and I dont want us to end up like Haiti.

Sounds simplistic, doesn’t it? The bottom line is that the illegal Haitian cannot work in the Bahamas unless the Bahamian businessman HIRES him, i-l-l-e-g-a-l-l-y. Be he the farmer in Abaco, the contractor in Freeport, or the landscaper in Nassau.
The Bahamian Businessman may not be directly responsible for the illegal Haitian coming to the Bahamas; however, whenever he employs an illegal immigrant, he also violates the Immigration and Labour laws of the Bahamas, and contributes significantly to the Illegal Immigrant problem.
I am looking at the problem realistically, NOT pointing fingers, as you are so quick to do, without even analyzing the pertinent facts. You ARE right about one thing though, “we Bahamians are now reaping the after-effects”...
The reality is, we are a small island nation with limited resources. However, these were forced repatriations; on the other hand, your implications were that the legal Haitian Immigrant should somehow voluntarily return to Haiti out of “respect” for the people of the Bahamas. Sounds ludicrous.
I never suggested that “Bahamians” were the problem; however, those who engage in the smuggling and hiring of illegal immigrants MUST be held accountable. In fact, I am a strong advocate for increased fines and possible prison terms for anyone who hires an illegal immigrant.
I have worked in the public service for a number of years, and have seen the system for what it’s worth. I “hear” your “optimism”, but I do not share in it. I am a pragmatist, even if Prime Minister Ingraham were to follow the dictates of the former Jamaican PM, and appoint reverend gentlemen in key positions of government, their mere presence would not “weed out corruption and inefficiency” in the Government Service.
In general, we must first attempt to change the “CULTURE AND MINDSET” of our people. This “culture of corruption and dishonesty” became deeply embedded in our society after decades of compromising on our moral values and mores. Therefore, we, as a society, will have to DO THE WORK to re-examine our values and transform ourselves through a sustainable national program of reform, i.e. implementation of value-based education in school curriculum, inculcating positive “SOCIETAL VALUES” from primary on up to high school and tertiary levels, where advanced courses in ethics can be offered. All public servants, particularly our security forces, should have mandatory courses in ethical behaviour and organisational values during initial, recurring, and advanced training and professional development.
Moreover, “whistle blower” legislation MUST be enacted to protect the public servant who reports corruption. When I had reported “wrong doings “in my department, I was treated like a “traitor,” rather than a “keeper of the public trust”, and/or “loyal” to the government and people of the Bahamas. In general, those who report corruption are victimised, ostracised and marginalised, instead of being “PROTECTED and REWARDED” for due diligence.
Lastly, individuals appointed to positions of leadership in the government services who abuse their authority by maltreatment of subordinates, corruption practises, and unethical behaviour, should be INVESTIGATED thoroughly, and REMOVED if they have compromised the terms of their high office. Presently, these individuals are usually transferred from one government department to another, where they continue their tyrannical behaviour.
You have FALSELY STATED that I had ACCUSED “Bahamians as being corrupt, morally deficient and inept”. If I had said this, I am certain who would have quoted this verbatim.
Why must you be so negative and argumentative. May I suggest you visit the Bahamas Archives, which is located on Mackey Street near Shirley Street. Ask for assistance in researching famous Bahamans of Haitian decent; You will find the experience enlightening.
lastly, I encourage you to click on the following link and read the academic research paper, entitled, “The Haitian Diaspora in the Bahamas”, by Ria N.M. Treco in its entirety, I find it very informative:
lacc.fiu.edu/research_publications/working_papers/WPS_004.pdf
No thank you, I have heard enough of your gibberish; now would you kindly extricate your foot out of your mouth and think before you speak.
After reading this nonsense, I OFFER MY HUMBLE APOLOGIES, to those who are diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic. On the other hand, Mr. Brown, what is your excuse?
Your opinion is simply that, your opinion, it does not make it RIGHT or WRONG, it’s your perception. I challenge those with opposing view to POST their comments.
Are you one of those who sell information for cash? Interestingly enough, I had also quoted an excerpt from the official biography of Prime Minister Ingraham, but I see you practice selective reading.”
The facts of the matter are, corruption is endemic in the Immigration Department. Of course, there are individual officers who are probably honest and “strictly by the book”. This is not enough, they must take a stand; otherwise, their complacency renders them as guilty as the rogue officers.
This is TRUE; however, it does not negate the fact that ALL are entitled to equal protection under the law. Accordingly, if an illegal immigrant is maltreated, or assaulted, the perpetrator, whether Haitian or Bahamian, is subject to arrest and prosecution.
I tend to believe you are not being honest in your writing here. As long-winded as you have been on this thread, IMO, if this was true, you would not have sheared one minute details.
Below is a link for the CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMONWEALTH OF THE BAHAMAS; go to the site to clarify any misconceptions regarding citizenship:
http://www.bahamas.gov.bs/bahamasweb2/home.nsf/vContentW/GOV--About+the+Government--Articles+of+the+Constitution/$file/citizenship.pdf
Moreover, those individuals who are born in the Bahamas and both parents are non-Bahamians, are “STATELESS” until they attain age eighteen, at which time they may make application for Bahamian citizenship.
“a person born in The Bahamas after 9th July 1973 neither of whose parents is a citizen of The Bahamas SHALL be entitled, upon making application on his attaining the age of eighteen years or within thereafter in such manner as may be prescribed, to be registered as a citizen of The Bahamas”.
This was not meant as a personal attack. The facts of the matter is, most people of colour have been mis-educated. I was inspired to re-read “The Mis-Education of the Negro” by Carter G. Woodson in an effort to gain some perspective to what I was observing in the actions of those of African descent in the Diaspora, here in the Bahamas, as well as the greater Caribbean Community. The spiraling rise in crime, the Disintegration of our societal values, the marginalization of the Haitian-Bahamian population , the culture of corruption and greed, the distruction of the drug trade, exploitation , oppression, etc. I look at our communities throughout the region and the self-destructive behaviors which we indulge in and it hurts my head. The question for isn’t so much: how did we get here? It’s more: why are we stuck here in this vicious cycle of self-destruction?
“When you control a man’s thinking you do not have to worry about his actions. You do not need to send him to the back door. He will go without being told. In fact, if there is no back door, he will cut one for his own special benefit. His education makes it necessary.”
The doctrine of “divide and conquer” is still alive and healthy within the Black/African Bahamian Community at large and right here on BI, in particular. Despite the heated discussion on the Haitian Community vs. The “native” Bahamian Community, we are still all African descendants of the Diaspora, and our history is interconnected. Yet, we are having this unproductive discussion here, that seems to be going nowhere.
I encourage you to read chapters 8 and 9 of the book, “Professional Education Discouraged” and “Political Education Neglected”, and how they relate to how we as a people are mis-educated today and how we can re-educate ourselves on these points in an effort to begin to move from here.
“The Negro, whether in Africa or America, must be directed toward a serious examination of the fundamentals of education, religion, literature and philosophy as they have been expounded to him. He must be sufficiently enlightened to determine for himself whether these forces have come into his life to bless him or to bless his oppressor. After learning the facts in the case, the Negro must develop the power of execution to deal with these matters as do people of vision. Problems of great importance cannot be worked out in a day. Questions of great moment must be met with far-reaching plans.”
I only chose to highlight this policy. I know all too well about the Washington lobbyist; but tell me who do you suppose was lobbying for the state department's quota of immigrants allowed into the U.S. each year by region and country. Did you know the Caribbean has one of the smallest quotas as compared to Ireland, which has the highest?
“Petty jealously and resentment”, you say? Now why did I not think of that. Mr. Brown, you seem to have figured out the crux of the problems plaguing nation’s lack of progress. Trust, it’s a lot more complicated than this.
Oh, ok, so it is a lot more than just petty jealousy and resentment, aye?
Firstly you know nothing about me, so do not make any presumptions. Secondly, so now that you have outlined some of the problems, what are you prepared to do about it?
You need to elaborate further, so that I may respond appropriately...
Fine, but you need not shake your Bahamian roots at me... Trust, my roots are just as extensive. RESPECT is a two-way street. I do not question your loyalty and patriotism. In the future, DO NOT QUESTION MINE...
Mr. Brown, stop been so self-righteous. This is a small Bahamas, most of us DO probably have Haitian descendants in our overall genealogy. I have Haitian roots by way of Andros, and proud of it.
I merely used the hyphen as a means of identification, it was not meant to portray anyone as any more or less Bahamian. Man, you need to relax before you catch a “coronary”, you are one tense and hypertensive dude...
Quite frankly I'm tired of your insults and misinformation. Your bias is clear and has been pointed out.

Your continued assertion that persons born here to Haitian parents are stateless shows your stubbornness and refusal to accept facts. I suggest that you go to speak with someone at the Haitian embassy to confirm that those persons are entitled to a Haitian passport. FOR THE LAST TIME, THEY ARE NOT STATELESS! If their parents decide to not make an application because they believe that it will somehow hurt the kid's chances of becoming a Bahamian citizen, that is another story. By right and by international law they are Haitian.

Moving right along...

Bahamians in general, as well as the ones who are protecting our native land for future Bahamians by speaking out against illegal immigration do not exemplify a matter of "divide and conquer". Such assertions show that you are merely a follower of the blind notion that because another person is black that they should not be held to the rule of law and be embraced wantonly into a society regardless of their impact. Warping racial analysis for one's own purposes is short-sighted and shows your prejudicial tendencies.

You keep on bringing up the topic of Bahamians of Haitian descent in a veiled attempt to validate the growing presence of immigrants in this nation, but such a tactic is easy to see through. Bahamians of other ancestries also have contributed greatly, but for the most part they do not abuse our laws and resources in the same manner. Credit is given to where it is due, but that information does not belong in this discussion. Your tactic has been exposed.

Regarding your comments on the US having a higher quota for one country versus another, remember that immigration is a privilege, not a right. Who are you to judge the US' government? You are not American or have any advanced knowledge on what their decision making processes are. I would gather that your comments are a part of your "racial bias" argument which feeds on suspicion of why a predominantly white country gets more visas than the Caribbean. BTW, that "chip" on our shoulder is showing.

Despite all of your "beating around the bush" and trying to divert the topic at hand you have done nothing of consequence in this debate. You have gone from "insulting me" to "blaming Bahamians for illegal immigration" to "showing your misinformed views of American policy" to "backing video clips that demonize the Bahamas and the Bahamian people" to "claiming that the government is doing nothing" (even though they are doing something) to "making race an issue that is supposed to supersede laws meant to keep nations stable and prosperous against a growing threat of illegal immigration".

Yeah, try again...

Quite frankly I'm tired of your insults and misinformation. Your bias is clear and has been pointed out.
Throughout this discussion, I have tried to quote professional sources to back up my assertions and observations about the Haitian Dilemma. Name one you have offered in this discussion, Mr. Brown. In fact, you seem to be writing strictly from emotions, presenting a one-sided, often blatantly prejudicial, viewpoint.

For example, I am perplexed by your failure to even acknowledge the involvement of Bahamians in the illegal Haitian immigrant trade; you practically exonerate the Bahamian Businessman for hiring illegal Haitians, shifting their responsibly or complacency in the proliferation of the problem on the illegal Haitians.

Further, you claim to be a “patriotic” Bahamian, branding anyone who disagrees with you views as “un-Bahamian”, or a “traitor.” Your intolerance has clouded your judgement, and, unfortunately, this does not allow for an “open” and honest discussion on the topic. As usual, your lengthy ramblings sound like a broken record; you repeat your distorted views over and over again, bringing nothing new to the discussion and offering not one solution to the problem.

Your continued assertion that persons born here to Haitian parents are stateless shows your stubbornness and refusal to accept facts. I suggest that you go to speak with someone at the Haitian embassy to confirm that those persons are entitled to a Haitian passport. FOR THE LAST TIME, THEY ARE NOT STATELESS! If their parents decide to not make an application because they believe that it will somehow hurt the kid's chances of becoming a Bahamian citizen, that is another story. By right and by international law they are Haitian.
Again, for your enlightenment, I offer the following excerpts from an academic paper entitled, "The Haitian Diaspora in the Bahamas"By Ria N.M. Treco, Florida International University, Department of International Relations:

lacc.fiu.edu/research_publications/working_papers/WPS_004.pdf

“Adding to the problem of undocumented Haitians living in the Bahamas is the nature of the nationality laws of both the Bahamas and Haiti. Under Article 6 of the Constitution of the Bahamas, every person born after the 9th of July, 1973, shall become a citizen of the Bahamas at the date of his or her birth if at that date either of his or her parents is a citizen of the Bahamas.

“Therefore, The Bahamas follows the jus sanguinis law of nationality literally meaning the right of blood, where the nationality of the child follows that of one or both parents, irrespective of the birthplace of the child. If a child is born to Haitian parents in the Bahamas, that child does not automatically gain citizenship in the Bahamas. This is because the Bahamas does not recognize jus soli law of nationality, literally meaning the right of birthplace, and further explained as the place of birth determines ones nationality. Adding to this dilemma is that Haiti follows jus soli law of nationality and so when a child is born to Haitian parents in the Bahamas a child is not automatically a Haitian. Due to the law of nationality that takes precedence in each country we end up having a large number of "stateless" children. Therefore, in the census many children are not factored into the total number because they are neither Haitian nor Bahamian.”
Bahamians in general, as well as the ones who are protecting our native land for future Bahamians by speaking out against illegal immigration do not exemplify a matter of "divide and conquer". Such as