i cant tell you how to raise your children but i hope you let them know that no matter what come hell or high water you will always love them, even though what they do may be wrong you will love them and hate the act. this goes outside of sexuality, from murder to stealing you name it. love them


But you hope ?
Oh boy thought you knew how deep a mothers love went, I just dont know what to say about this comment !!

But you hope ?
Oh boy thought you knew how deep a mothers love went, I just dont know what to say about this comment !!


believe it or not there are some people out there that dis own their children. i know a woman who hasnt spoken to her mother in 18 years, just over some silly argument.

I am aware of that BB, as you and others are shooting questions I simply decided to shoot one.
I will shoot another.What is the purpose of SEMEN & why is it only produced when MALES have sex? :sarcastic

this is an extremly good question. well it depends on the person, believe it or not there are some nut jobs out there that think sex is only for reproduction. i think not only is sex for reproduction, it is also to build trust, intamacy, and love in a relationship between a man and woman sex is also the special bond makes you more than friends or family. so not only is do i think the same sex encounters are unatural, so is the entire relationship (that special love, trust, and intamacy). man was not designed to carry on this type of relationship with another man and vice versa for woman. to me it is unatural for two men or women to wanna be married, or have children, and raise a family.

That is right it is unnatural to you and unnatural to me. But it is not unnatural to some one who is attracted to the same sex. It is also unnatural for you to be transgendered but natural for me.

ladyA, i know you are tired of this topic, i am a little tired also thats what i asked that masterbation question to in that post to Rory. but i must ask you this. (you dont have to answer, but it would be helpful if you did)

are you saying that every gay person is really straight but chooses to be gay? ( i think this is a good question, since no one asked you this)

if you did not have "choice" as an option, what do you think cuases a person to be gay? eg some people say demons

BTW- no one ever said to raise a boy as a girl.

Uh how about Native Americans There is a ceromony in which there is a circle of fire with a way in. In this cricle there is placed a basket and a bow and arrow. At the age of about 13 a boy will be sent into the circle if he bring out a Bow and arrow he is brought up to be a worier/hunter. If the boy comes out with the basket the women take him to the river cut off his cloths washed given womens cloths and a womans name and from that day on she is brought up to be and lives as a woman.
http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PRODUCT&PROD_ID=1321561&cid=64664&fp=F
reserched inthe above book.

I will shoot another.What is the purpose of SEMEN & why is it only produced when MALES have sex? :sarcastic

You mean when males have orgasm. It is not produced at that time it is released at that time.

Uh how about Native Americans There is a ceromony in which there is a circle of fire with a way in. In this cricle there is placed a basket and a bow and arrow. At the age of about 13 a boy will be sent into the circle if he bring out a Bow and arrow he is brought up to be a worier/hunter. If the boy comes out with the basket the women take him to the river cut off his cloths washed given womens cloths and a womans name and from that day on she is brought up to be and lives as a woman.
http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PRODUCT&PROD_ID=1321561&cid=64664&fp=F
reserched inthe above book.


Not every Native American tribe did this, Vicky. This was not a common occurance at all. Even the Chief's like thier squaws as women!

Not every Native American tribe did this, Vicky. This was not a common occurance at all. Even the Chief's like thier squaws as women!

True.

As a by-the-by and according to my Native American friends, the word Squaw is an unflattering word for an Indian woman and its use should be avoided. I am sure you meant no offence but it is rather like calling a Black man a n :taped: Most people don't know this - but a word to the wise..... :cheers:

Not every Native American tribe did this, Vicky. This was not a common occurance at all. Even the Chief's like thier squaws as women!

HHHmmm have you ever met a Native American????
Guess you better study up some.
http://www.androphile.org/preview/Culture/NativeAmerica/amerindian.htm
All tribes were aware of the existence of two-spirit people, and each still has a name for them. The Dinéh (Navaho) refer to them as nàdleehé one who is ‘transformed’, the Lakota (Sioux) as winkte, the Mohave as alyha, the Zuni as lhamana, the Omaha as mexoga, the Aleut and Kodiak as achnucek, the Zapotec as ira’ muxe, the Cheyenne as he man eh. [5] This abundance of terms testifies to the familiarity of Native Americans with gender-variant people. For proof of the sacred role they held, and hold, in Native society we again turn to Native sources. Terry Calling Eagle, a Lakota man, recounts: “Winktes have to be born that way. People know that a person is going to become a winkte very early in his life. At about age twelve parents will take him to a ceremony to communicate with past winktes who had power, to verify if it is just a phase or a permanent thing for his lifetime. If the proper vision takes place, and communication with a past winkte is established, then everybody accepts him as a winkte.” [6]

Claire R. Farrer, an anthropologist who has “gone native” in the best sense of the term, reports on the present situation among the Mescalero Apache: “Multigendered adult people at Mescalero are usually presumed to be people of power. Because they have both maleness and femaleness totally entwined in one body, they are known to be able to ‘see’ with the eyes of both proper men and proper women. They are often called upon to be healers, or mediators, or interpreters of dreams, or expected to become singers or others whose lives are devoted to the welfare of the group. If they do extraordinary things in any aspect of life, it is assumed that they have the license and power to do so and, therefore, they are not questioned.” [7]

In everyday life the two-spirit male typically would wear women’s clothes and do women’s work. He would be accepted as “one of the girls.” He might take a husband from among the men of the tribe, or might have affairs with several, or both. Generally two-spirit males were not expected to have sexual relations with women. None of these “rules” however were ironbound. [8] Again and again we see that variation from the norm, change, transformation, and fluidity of roles for those who felt called to that path was welcomed and appreciated. Here we have to confront a very real epistemological problem: it is impossible to define precisely what two-spirit experience is. Though all agree such individuals exist, “the particulars of that identity remain variable.” [9] We may have to content ourselves with the explanation offered by P.K., one of Carolyn Epple’s Dinéh teachers, who said that we need to “… see nàdleehé as human beings responding to situations.” [10]

Besides their spiritual abilities, their capacity for work also figured into the high status of two-spirit people. Even though a two-spirit male would have taken on the gender identity of a woman, he would still have the endurance and strength of a man. Thus his productivity was greater than that of most women, and for that reason also he would have been valued as a marriage partner. Other characteristics that Natives associate with two-spirit people and that help explain their desirability as partners are a highly developed ability to relate to and teach children, a generous nature, and exceptional intellectual and artistic skills.


http://www.coreymondello.com/Berdache.html

"They (two-spirit people) were integral, productive, and valued members of their communities".
"The Zuni word for berdache is lhamana, denoting its closeness to the spiritual mediator who brought hunting and farming together."

"....that humans are dependent for many good things on the inventiveness of the nadle [the Navajo term for the two-spirit]. Such individuals were present from the earliest era of human existence, and they... were part of the natural order of the universe, with a special contribution to make."

"The holiness of the berdache has to do with Indian [sic] views that everything that exists is a reflection of the spiritual. If a person is different from the average individual, this means that the spirit must have taken particular care in creating this person... by this reasoning, such an individual must be especially close to the spirits."
- Will Roscoe, author of 'The Zuni Man-Woman'

"Unlike European Americans, gender or sexual divergence did not threaten the Indians. Berdache males in particular often became healers, surgeons, counselors, therapists, high religious priests, shamans, witch doctors and medicine men. They were regarded as a kind of holy men."
The Berdache Spirit

Not every Native American tribe did this, Vicky. This was not a common occurance at all. Even the Chief's like thier squaws as women!

fyi
http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/Articles2000/Soctomah991220Squaw.htm

Uh how about Native Americans There is a ceromony in which there is a circle of fire with a way in. In this cricle there is placed a basket and a bow and arrow. At the age of about 13 a boy will be sent into the circle if he bring out a Bow and arrow he is brought up to be a worier/hunter. If the boy comes out with the basket the women take him to the river cut off his cloths washed given womens cloths and a womans name and from that day on she is brought up to be and lives as a woman.
http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PRODUCT&PROD_ID=1321561&cid=64664&fp=F
reserched inthe above book.
HMMmmmmmmmmmmmm! One question Vick,why is it everything you use for a reference has a HOMOSEXUAL bias?

i used to date a native american girl, but i never got into any of this stuff, was too busy getting into something else.. :tup: all i know she was definately a female born and bred .. :p


HHHmmm have you ever met a Native American????
Guess you better study up some.
http://www.androphile.org/preview/Culture/NativeAmerica/amerindian.htm
All tribes were aware of the existence of two-spirit people, and each still has a name for them. The Dinéh (Navaho) refer to them as nàdleehé one who is ‘transformed’, the Lakota (Sioux) as winkte, the Mohave as alyha, the Zuni as lhamana, the Omaha as mexoga, the Aleut and Kodiak as achnucek, the Zapotec as ira’ muxe, the Cheyenne as he man eh. [5] This abundance of terms testifies to the familiarity of Native Americans with gender-variant people. For proof of the sacred role they held, and hold, in Native society we again turn to Native sources. Terry Calling Eagle, a Lakota man, recounts: “Winktes have to be born that way. People know that a person is going to become a winkte very early in his life. At about age twelve parents will take him to a ceremony to communicate with past winktes who had power, to verify if it is just a phase or a permanent thing for his lifetime. If the proper vision takes place, and communication with a past winkte is established, then everybody accepts him as a winkte.” [6]

Claire R. Farrer, an anthropologist who has “gone native” in the best sense of the term, reports on the present situation among the Mescalero Apache: “Multigendered adult people at Mescalero are usually presumed to be people of power. Because they have both maleness and femaleness totally entwined in one body, they are known to be able to ‘see’ with the eyes of both proper men and proper women. They are often called upon to be healers, or mediators, or interpreters of dreams, or expected to become singers or others whose lives are devoted to the welfare of the group. If they do extraordinary things in any aspect of life, it is assumed that they have the license and power to do so and, therefore, they are not questioned.” [7]

In everyday life the two-spirit male typically would wear women’s clothes and do women’s work. He would be accepted as “one of the girls.” He might take a husband from among the men of the tribe, or might have affairs with several, or both. Generally two-spirit males were not expected to have sexual relations with women. None of these “rules” however were ironbound. [8] Again and again we see that variation from the norm, change, transformation, and fluidity of roles for those who felt called to that path was welcomed and appreciated. Here we have to confront a very real epistemological problem: it is impossible to define precisely what two-spirit experience is. Though all agree such individuals exist, “the particulars of that identity remain variable.” [9] We may have to content ourselves with the explanation offered by P.K., one of Carolyn Epple’s Dinéh teachers, who said that we need to “… see nàdleehé as human beings responding to situations.” [10]

Besides their spiritual abilities, their capacity for work also figured into the high status of two-spirit people. Even though a two-spirit male would have taken on the gender identity of a woman, he would still have the endurance and strength of a man. Thus his productivity was greater than that of most women, and for that reason also he would have been valued as a marriage partner. Other characteristics that Natives associate with two-spirit people and that help explain their desirability as partners are a highly developed ability to relate to and teach children, a generous nature, and exceptional intellectual and artistic skills.


http://www.coreymondello.com/Berdache.html

"They (two-spirit people) were integral, productive, and valued members of their communities".
"The Zuni word for berdache is lhamana, denoting its closeness to the spiritual mediator who brought hunting and farming together."

"....that humans are dependent for many good things on the inventiveness of the nadle [the Navajo term for the two-spirit]. Such individuals were present from the earliest era of human existence, and they... were part of the natural order of the universe, with a special contribution to make."

"The holiness of the berdache has to do with Indian [sic] views that everything that exists is a reflection of the spiritual. If a person is different from the average individual, this means that the spirit must have taken particular care in creating this person... by this reasoning, such an individual must be especially close to the spirits."
- Will Roscoe, author of 'The Zuni Man-Woman'

"Unlike European Americans, gender or sexual divergence did not threaten the Indians. Berdache males in particular often became healers, surgeons, counselors, therapists, high religious priests, shamans, witch doctors and medicine men. They were regarded as a kind of holy men."
The Berdache Spirit

That is right it is unnatural to you and unnatural to me. But it is not unnatural to some one who is attracted to the same sex. It is also unnatural for you to be transgendered but natural for me.


true. dont forget it is unatural to most of the world also.

Uh how about Native Americans There is a ceromony in which there is a circle of fire with a way in. In this cricle there is placed a basket and a bow and arrow. At the age of about 13 a boy will be sent into the circle if he bring out a Bow and arrow he is brought up to be a worier/hunter. If the boy comes out with the basket the women take him to the river cut off his cloths washed given womens cloths and a womans name and from that day on she is brought up to be and lives as a woman.
http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PRODUCT&PROD_ID=1321561&cid=64664&fp=F
reserched inthe above book.


that is f'd up yo. so does the boy choose which item he wants or is it too smokey and he has to feel one out?

that is f'd up yo. so does the boy choose which item he wants or is it too smokey and he has to feel one out?


he gets a choice to have the poker stick or the hoola hoop :shaky: