Gods' desire is for all men to be saved.

You never know; this Truthseeker guy we are talking to might be the next Billy Graham. So lets all help in the effort to start his ministry by speaking the truth that he now seeks into his life.

I will begin by answering that bit about Hell:
Jesus said in Matthew 25 and 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels”.

You see Truthseeker? Hell was never created for man or by man, but man inherited it through sin along with every other punishment that man got. Jesus also said that “A slave is not greater than his master” so they who are slaves to satan will face the same judgment he will. Man caused his own punishment and not God. In-fact; our punishment could have been greater!

If God was such a cruel God why did He not just wipe Adam off the face of this earth and start over again? Why didn't God just format us like a hard drive and do a reinstall? Because He still loves us even after we have sinned. From the moment we sinned against God He immediately started to plan our salvation. And that salvation came through the blood of Jesus Christ. Now it is possible for all men to be set free from sin.

Do you want to know how it feels to be free from sin?


I am loving this thread.

I beleive in the bible but it is after all my beleif.

Delroy, I am on your side but I'm gonna have to give you a fowl.

These guys don't read the holy bible, and if they do, they don't beleive it, and will point out that is has been tampered with and books inserted and removed and even that adam and eve has different names.

You are being fouled because you can't quote from the bible to people who don't beleive in the bible. The instant you start to quote from the bible they will close their ears.

It is just like asking them to prove their beliefs without quoting from their scientific books and scientists.

They beleive in science and will all use science to back up theri beleifs just as you will always use the bible to back up your beliefs.

Delroy, we know that the bible says - professing themselves to be wise they became fools, but how do you tell them that without quoting from the bible?

This thread will go on forever - because neither side can prove or disprove.

Even with the scientific explanation that matter cannot be created or destroyed, just converted from one form to another - to explain that a soul may not consisit of matter is ludicrous - because that would also be a belief, and therefore cannot be used as proof or disproof. One person will ultimately beleive that a soul exists while the other will say prove it.

I am gonna lurk and enjoy this debate

Our purpose is not to worship some invisible spirit but to create and shape our own destinies however we chose. As long as we don't hurt anyone else during the process.


I have to object here ...

Who told you that our our purpose is to create and shape our destiny as we choose - "as long as it does not hurt anyone else during the process"

I will agree based on scientific evidence that we may have come about as a mistake/luck/chance - but who says it was random chance and not meant or even forced to happen by an unseen power.

Further, we may not be hurting each other but e are hurting other lifeforms by dominating the earth - how many trees and animals do we kill on a daily basis - just because they don't speak, does not mean we are not hurting them - and no matter what one man does it always hurts someone else.

Besides why should we care who we hurt in the first place - I beleive conscience makes us want to avoid hurting others - but some serial killers will say they are not hurting others but actually freeing them.

SO I think you need to prove your 2 statements
1. our purpose
2. why we shouldn't hurt anyone

Very interesting post, and there are many truths in it. :cheers:

These guys don't read the holy bible, and if they do, they don't beleive it, and will point out that is has been tampered with and books inserted and removed and even that adam and eve has different names.
Well, it has been "tampered with." All Holy Books have been, in one form or another. However, these revisions (a better word than tamper) has not substantially change the meaning of the Books. Interpretation has!

As for Adam and Eve. In the early Jewish traditions God created Adam and Lilith. Lilith would not listen to Adam so he got rid of her and God created Eve. Is this true? Who knows?! To me it makes the story that much more interesting. By the way, Lilith is now a spirit that haunts the world, leading men into sexual temptation - by sitting on their faces! :eek: I'm sorry, just telling you the story! But it could account for a lot of stuff that goes on!!!!!

You are being fouled because you can't quote from the bible to people who don't beleive in the bible. The instant you start to quote from the bible they will close their ears.
Sadly, this is true! Sadly, it is also true that many Bible believes state their case so badly, and with such rancor, that it is a turn off. (I am not speaking of anyone in particular.)

It is just like asking them to prove their beliefs without quoting from their scientific books and scientists.
Again, this is true also.

They beleive in science and will all use science to back up theri beleifs just as you will always use the bible to back up your beliefs.
Right again. But the Science books seem to have a bit more "believability" to them.

Delroy, we know that the bible says - professing themselves to be wise they became fools, but how do you tell them that without quoting from the bible?
You are batting a 1000. But why would you want to call someone a fool?

This thread will go on forever - because neither side can prove or disprove.
The object is not to prove or disprove. The object is to provide evidence so that one can form a conclusion. The scientist is willing to admit that his side needs more evidence, or his side might be wrong and he has to go back to the "drawing board." The religious person cannot admit such things. In fact, very quickly will they fight to prove that what they do not know is so.

Even with the scientific explanation that matter cannot be created or destroyed, just converted from one form to another - to explain that a soul may not consisit of matter is ludicrous - because that would also be a belief, and therefore cannot be used as proof or disproof. One person will ultimately beleive that a soul exists while the other will say prove it.
Science tells us that all things are made of atoms. Yet, at the super microscopic level, one can see that there is more space between the atoms than there are atoms! Therefore, everything is made of more "nothing" than it is of something! So, there could indeed be something that is not made of matter, as we know it. Yet, who is to say the soul is not made of matter? I read somewhere that dying people have been weighed as they were dying. I am told that there is a subtle, very subtle, loss of weight as the person dies. What went out? Could it be a soul? I think that is very possible.

I am gonna lurk and enjoy this debate
Please don't just lurk. Join in. We all value your opinions :cheers:

If science and religion could join hands life would be so much better for us all. Buddhism has done this, why can't the rest? :dgi:

I dont hate jehovah witnesses, I just dont like them knocking on my door when they should be out getting a job!!!! :-)


Ditto

I just love how practical your mind seems to operate, although it seems to be cynical at times.

Praise God the christians don't go door to door daily like the Jehovah witnesses. Does anyone actually read the .50 cents books when they do actually buy them - or just do so to get rid of them.

I have tried to read a few of them but they appear to be mostly intriging headlines with lillte valuable content.

I just downloaded this its is very good

This is what should be done
By one who is skilled in goodness,
And who knows the path of peace:
Let them be able and upright,
Straightforward and gentle in speech.
Humble and not conceited,
Contented and easily satisfied.
Unburdened with duties and frugal in their ways.
Peaceful and calm, and wise and skillful,
Not proud and demanding in nature.

Let them not do the slightest thing
That the wise would later reprove.

Wishing: In gladness and in saftey,
May all beings be at ease.
Whatever living beings there may be;
Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,
The great or the mighty, medium, short or small,
The seen and the unseen,
Those living near and far away,
Those born and to-be-born,
May all beings be at ease!

Let none deceive another,
Or despise any being in any state.
Let none through anger or ill-will
Wish harm upon another.

Even as a mother protects with her life
Her child, her only child,
So with a boundless heart
Should one cherish all living beings:
Radiating kindness over the entire world
Spreading upwards to the skies,
And downwards to the depths;
Outwards and unbounded,
Freed from hatred and ill-will.

Whether standing or walking, seated or lying down
Free from drowsiness,
One should sustain this recollection.

This is said to be the sublime abiding.
By not holding to fixed views,
The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision,
Being freed from all sense desires,
Is not born again into this world.

It is futile to debate what is not debatable..that is what people believe. If you believe in God, then for someone to argue with you is foolish. If you dont believe in God the same holds true.

After all, for those who say they believe in (or follow) God, you could only have come to do so by divine intervention, and if that is true, why do you seek to use, by natural (argumentative) means, methods of convincing someone of your viewpoint?

Why do you dispute points of doctrine with people? Why do you make the Bible your whipping tool? Has that same Bible whipped you into the spiritual perfection you want to sound like you have reached? Did Jesus do this? He didnt argue, but He confirmed what was already true by the demonstration of Himself. No one can convince man of God but God Himself.

And if you dont believe in God, why do you feign superiority by saying those that do are weak and dependant when you for all you knowledge cannot even control the day you are born, the breath you breathe or the time you will die, your own mental fortitude which through a germ cell can be wiped out? The fundamentals of life?

Why do you put down people just because you have learned to read and have accepted a position? Havent they done the same? Why do you worship your intellectual independence, but if you or someone you love is struck by a calamity or disaster, you dont run for a biology book but you, whether by mental assent or otherwise, seek for something outside of yourself?

Is is not pride that makes us agrue either way?

Are we not proud when we believe we have cornered the market on God? Are we not proud when we dismiss what we cannot explain? Many natural phenomena we accept as fact today has not yet been "proven" or "irreducibly explained" by science, and conversely Christians for example, for all their "faith and power" cannot live according to their beliefs or pray themselves out of a head cold.

Why have we read books and now think that we have arrived? Why do we hear a sermon and believe the same? When the truth is many of us, for all our learning, still cannot answer within our hearts life's most puzzling questions.

To me, whether you believe in God or not, a fool is he or she that thinks they know something, they really do not.

I did not see this post I don't think
it is a very good 1 and well said.

I am loving this thread.

I beleive in the bible but it is after all my beleif.

Delroy, I am on your side but I'm gonna have to give you a fowl.

These guys don't read the holy bible, and if they do, they don't beleive it, and will point out that is has been tampered with and books inserted and removed and even that adam and eve has different names.

You are being fouled because you can't quote from the bible to people who don't beleive in the bible. The instant you start to quote from the bible they will close their ears.

It is just like asking them to prove their beliefs without quoting from their scientific books and scientists.

They beleive in science and will all use science to back up theri beleifs just as you will always use the bible to back up your beliefs.

Delroy, we know that the bible says - professing themselves to be wise they became fools, but how do you tell them that without quoting from the bible?

This thread will go on forever - because neither side can prove or disprove.

Even with the scientific explanation that matter cannot be created or destroyed, just converted from one form to another - to explain that a soul may not consisit of matter is ludicrous - because that would also be a belief, and therefore cannot be used as proof or disproof. One person will ultimately beleive that a soul exists while the other will say prove it.

I am gonna lurk and enjoy this debate


The question is where would we be is it were not for science. Who created science???

I have to object here ...

Who told you that our our purpose is to create and shape our destiny as we choose - "as long as it does not hurt anyone else during the process"

I will agree based on scientific evidence that we may have come about as a mistake/luck/chance - but who says it was random chance and not meant or even forced to happen by an unseen power.

Further, we may not be hurting each other but e are hurting other lifeforms by dominating the earth - how many trees and animals do we kill on a daily basis - just because they don't speak, does not mean we are not hurting them - and no matter what one man does it always hurts someone else.
say it again I don't think people have heard you.
Besides why should we care who we hurt in the first place - I beleive conscience makes us want to avoid hurting others - but some serial killers will say they are not hurting others but actually freeing them.

SO I think you need to prove your 2 statements
1. our purpose
2. why we shouldn't hurt anyone

You are batting a 1000. But why would you want to call someone a fool?

Because they are. Plain and simple, you cannot within the strains of sanity profess to have accepted Einstein as a mentor and not believe and accept in the concept of faith.

Einstein (whether they are willing to accept it or not) BELIEVED in the Theory of Relativity before he could prove it. By the logic of Truthseeker and Proud Open Mind this just is not acceptable. As they have so suggested, there must be proof first, before belief.

Furthermore, for anyone to come on this site claim that there is NO way that science and religion can be reconciled, or that they have never been reconciled in the past, is ignorant. They have NOT read Descartes, doubt they've even heard of him. They have not sought truth, they merely slouch on the proverbial couch and wait for "truth" to come on the Discovery Channel or whathaveyou.

I love truth, and I can freely admit that at times (and this may very well be one of them) I own myself a fool. Truth sometimes hurts, but like you, yourself CG, once said, "Truth always transcends religion, it's why some people who stuck in their beliefs or religion can't see it in others."
I know a fool when I see one, because I've been one, and still may be one. And that's the truth. The mode of reasoning used by TruthSeeker and ProudOpenMind seems foolish to me too. But I'm willing and patient enough to discuss it.

"The only knowledge exists in knowing you know nothing." Socrates

Thing is though, there are alot of ignorant people on this site Rory. I come here and I can chat with people like CG and Vicki. I am not a Buddhist and I am not a GLBT member of society. Therefore, these are things I am THOROUGHLY ignorant about. I come to share and learn, I come with an open mind...to give and take.
The only thing wrong with being ignorant or being a fool, is if you willfully choose to stay that way because it's comfortable for you. That's when ignorance and folly become stupidity and that's when things get hurtful.
I don't confuse ignorance with stupidity. I welcome ignorance. CG welcomes my ignorance. Vicki welcomes my ignorance. Truthseeker and ProudOpen Mind welcome my ignorance.

But if it's one thing I know, is that it is human nature, moreso Bahamian nature to treat stupidiy a certain way when it surfaces.

Furthermore, for anyone to come on this site claim that there is NO way that science and religion can be reconciled, or that they have never been reconciled in the past, is ignorant.


science and religion is always being reconciled, one day it may even be completed, but I doubt it - as we are instructed to live by faith not by proof.

but there is a lot of proof by science that corelates with the bible and other religions and a lot of disproof of science by the bible as well.

note: disproof *is proof* of something not being true or correct.

however, we have to be willing to accept socrates quote offered earlier, because we often call our perception of the truth actual truth. But what we perceive to be true does not actually change the truth - it is oftentimes just our perception of what see as true based on what we see, not what actually exists.

perceiving a glass to be filled with water does not change the fact that the glass may be filled with clear soda.

Thing is though, there are alot of ignorant people on this site Rory. I come here and I can chat with people like CG and Vicki. I am not a Buddhist and I am not a GLBT member of society. Therefore, these are things I am THOROUGHLY ignorant about. I come to share and learn, I come with an open mind...to give and take.
The only thing wrong with being ignorant or being a fool, is if you willfully choose to stay that way because it's comfortable for you. That's when ignorance and folly become stupidity and that's when things get hurtful.
I don't confuse ignorance with stupidity. I welcome ignorance. CG welcomes my ignorance. Vicki welcomes my ignorance. Truthseeker and ProudOpen Mind welcome my ignorance.

But if it's one thing I know, is that it is human nature, moreso Bahamian nature to treat stupidiy a certain way when it surfaces.

You know that was so very well said I actually clapped. Many here think I am an arrogant think I know it all person. The truth is I seek answers as well. I know what I know and when I see something that might change what I know I research it. Then I draw my conclusions and move on. If this new thing/fact makes moot the fact I thought I knew I accept it and move on. Oh and I watch the discovery channel. Reading is a challenge for me. Dyslexia.

science and religion is always being reconciled, one day it may even be completed, but I doubt it - as we are instructed to live by faith not by proof.

but there is a lot of proof by science that corelates with the bible and other religions and a lot of disproof of science by the bible as well.
I would like you to please name a few.
note: disproof *is proof* of something not being true or correct.

however, we have to be willing to accept socrates quote offered earlier, because we often call our perception of the truth actual truth. But what we perceive to be true does not actually change the truth - it is oftentimes just our perception of what see as true based on what we see, not what actually exists.

perceiving a glass to be filled with water does not change the fact that the glass may be filled with clear soda.

Oh and I watch the discovery channel. Reading is a challenge for me. Dyslexia.

Yes, Vicki, I watch the Discovery Channel when I can too, and I encounter VERY slight cases of alexia when I work. But I am quite sure that you didn't sit down and wait for the Discovery Channel to air an episode on Gender Science. You got up and went out looking for information, furthermore, you explored said subject and other related topics beyond your comfort threshold.
THAT is what I expect from someone who claims to be searching for the truth, perchance, my expectations were/are too high.

Yes, Vicki, I watch the Discovery Channel when I can too, and I encounter VERY slight cases of alexia when I work. But I am quite sure that you didn't sit down and wait for the Discovery Channel to air an episode on Gender Science. You got up and went out looking for information, furthermore, you explored said subject and other related topics beyond your comfort threshold.
THAT is what I expect from someone who claims to be searching for the truth, perchance, my expectations were/are too high.

Response to your last sentence.
The problem many of the people have when searching for the truth they look only in one place. The Bible. They don't want to hear about the history of the Bible because all their lives they were brainwashed to believe it is the only source of truth. It is not their fault that they can't open their minds they have been taught that to open their minds beyond what the Bible says is to open them selves to sin. They are caught up in traditional Christianity. Another words traditional beliefs are the only way for them. That is why I say to them "the world is still flat a traditional Christian (but not exclusively) belief. It is also a tradition to point your finger/ accuse / condemn / judge people with out judging the selves first. I just give them a mirror to see them selves from the other side.
Example my last response to bsmbahamas on the thread “Poor Mans Game”.