Response to your last sentence.
The problem many of the people have when searching for the truth they look only in one place. The Bible. They don't want to hear about the history of the Bible because all their lives they were brainwashed to believe it is the only source of truth. It is not their fault that they can't open their minds they have been taught that to open their minds beyond what the Bible says is to open them selves to sin.

*we are taught to search and compare the bible to what we see going on and what we hear, not to accept the bible as absolute truth BLINDLY.

They are caught up in traditional Christianity. Another words traditional beliefs are the only way for them. That is why I say to them "the world is still flat a traditional Christian (but not exclusively) belief. It is also a tradition to point your finger/ accuse / condemn / judge people with out judging the selves first. I just give them a mirror to see them selves from the other side.


*a lot of people are caught up on tradition, christian and non-christian alike.

*as I suggested, if you were to take a poll on many issues that christians speak out against and exclude the christians from voting, it is my opinion that many of the issues that are being challenged by the christians will still not be embraced by the non christians.

Also I said earlier, the bible has been proven to be accurate by many scientific discoveries, and also proven many 'scientific facts' and 'traditions' to be wrong and often exactly opposite to what science had deemed factual.

I have many to post as proof, but they have to be manually typed - with references.

for example many historical events in the bible have been proven by new science discoveries that science previously said were false claims, and the bible stated these claims as factual before the old 'facts' were proven wrong by new 'facts'.

I say many times 'our perception of the truth does not change the truth',
so standing on your 'own truth' is not the way to go, as what we perceive to be the truth is almost always based on our individual biases.
This pretty much makes tradition a bad thing, but a lot of tradition is fact not perceived fact, a lot of tradition and fact is still not actual fact yet, just perceived to be factual.

Practice does not make you perfect it only makes you good at what you practice. No matter how wrong or right it is.

"I stand on the ground of my truth, there is no place else to stand." --Helen Klonaris


and this is why we debate, we are all arguing about our perceptions of the truth

I can be wrong, but the bible still seems to be more fact based than any other source, and no wonder as it is said to be inspired by God, and man perception is always changing, but God's perception of the truth has alway's been the same.

not saying that christianity is all truth based, it is our perception of the truth, our belief, our faith - many religions are based on the bible not just christianity.

Don't we all beleive there is a God deep down inside, maybe even ONE God?

James 2
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

:cheers:

*a lot of people are caught up on tradition, christian and non-christian alike.

*as I suggested, if you were to take a poll on many issues that christians speak out against and exclude the christians from voting, it is my opinion that many of the issues that are being challenged by the christians will still not be embraced by the non christians.

Also I said earlier, the bible has been proven to be accurate by many scientific discoveries, and also proven many 'scientific facts' and 'traditions' to be wrong and often exactly opposite to what science had deemed factual.

I have many to post as proof, but they have to be manually typed - with references.

for example many historical events in the bible have been proven by new science discoveries that science previously said were false claims, and the bible stated these claims as factual before the old 'facts' were proven wrong by new 'facts'.
You better find it and type it here. I will not let you off on this one. Because this post says and proves nothing.
I say many times 'our perception of the truth does not change the truth',
so standing on your 'own truth' is not the way to go, as what we perceive to be the truth is almost always based on our individual biases.
This pretty much makes tradition a bad thing, but a lot of tradition is fact not perceived fact, a lot of tradition and fact is still not actual fact yet, just perceived to be factual.

Practice does not make you perfect it only makes you good at what you practice. No matter how wrong or right it is.

"I stand on the ground of my truth, there is no place else to stand." --Helen Klonaris


and this is why we debate, we are all arguing about our perceptions of the truth

I can be wrong, but the bible still seems to be more fact based than any other source, and no wonder as it is said to be inspired by God, and man perception is always changing, but God's perception of the truth has alway's been the same.

not saying that christianity is all truth based, it is our perception of the truth, our belief, our faith - many religions are based on the bible not just christianity.

Don't we all beleive there is a God deep down inside, maybe even ONE God?

James 2
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

:cheers:

ok vicky ...

John 4
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

but maybe tomorrow, me and most of my family camping out at a beach house tonight out adelaide.

:cheers:

enjoy the rest of the weekend.

i'll try to post some tomorrow or monday.

ok vicky ...

John 4
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
in referance to what????
but maybe tomorrow, me and most of my family camping out at a beach house tonight out adelaide.

:cheers:

enjoy the rest of the weekend.

i'll try to post some tomorrow or monday.

there and then again we are at a position


concerning god
before i go any further i would like someone to define and research the name god
then we can go from there please i want everyone to know that god is not the name of the creator

the existance of a creator there is
the exis tance of other beings conciderd to be gods there is also

Just adding to the dialogue...

My thoughts are neither here nor there persay, just trying to understand it all...So here goes...

How does sun, water, atmospheric pressure etc. etc. produce such varying forms of living substances: man, trees, sea creatures, earth, sand etc. etc.?

How come enrgy and matter are the ground work for all things living? Could it be that perhaps what christians consider "God" is really just energy or matter?

How is matter and energy able to create something that not only has molecular structure, but emotions, senses and the like.

Is matter and energy both physical and spiritual? When a man dies is it matter and energy that leaves his body, causing his physical structure to be completely lifeless forever?

Are matter and energy also able to reason and conceptualize etc...? cause man does...Other living creatures do too in their own way...You think maybe these are all aspects of energy and matter that are only visible in human form? If so, where did energy and the like come from?

Just throwing things out there as I read all the comments...The matter and energy thing is what I'm drawing from some of the comments made by Atheists. I'm on the fence to tell you the truth. My upbringing says "YOU BETTA BELIEVE THERE'S A GOD!"...My seeking tells me "keep asking questions"...I'm in seek mode...Hoping my curiosity leads me to real truth...

HOLLA

Stumbled across some interesting things today. Forgive me if I have posted this before.

List of the top 50 least religious countries.
http://www.kirainet.com/english/the-least-religious-countries/

Average IQ by Country
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7e/IQ_by_Country.png

What can we learn from this? Well, lets break it down. The top fifteen nations, with average IQs over 100 points (the top of the chart) all fall within within the top 50 least religious nations.

Even more interesting, amongst nations with average IQs of 89 and lower, which make up a good chunk of the map, I count only about four who's names are in the top 50 least religious nations.

High IQ = Atheist
Low IQ = Religious?

The Bible say in Romans 1:20 that “ For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.”


I like to be clear. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. I accept The Bible!



1. What proof do you have of the existence of God?

Innately there is that witness. The longer I live, the more I get to know God, the more I observe humanity, the more that innate knowledge is revealed and confirm. Also, interacting and observing the frustration and futile efforts of those that "will not" accept God as they try to 'make sense of life' further confirms this. Man independent of God is kinda jokey.... really! Sad though!


2. How can someone look at all of this life around them and not believe in God?

Because "intelligent" ppl realize that to confess that there IS a God and yet resist Him openly is simply "foolish"! (mine you, The Bible did says "the FOOL has said in his heart 'there in NO God'...) and, "The fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom..." (no so politically correc' lang.)


2. How can someone look at all of this life around them and not believe in God?

Most ppl. believe in some 'Higher being/force/God?'. The God of the Christian is NOT convenient for most --- particularly as they begin to place their faith in THEMSELVES.... any thing else threatens their control/independence... The Christian God demands "DIE TO SELF".... live in Jesus Christ!


4. How can it be proved to others the God exists?

You know I really don't think there is a need to ...

However, the Christian is to DEMONSTRATE Jesus in His everyday life -- bringing to bear His kingdom --- too many of us (Christians!) underestimate the power of that testimony. Man without God is a downward spiral... regardless of education, social status, or means!


5. What proof do you have that He doesn't exist?

I'll listen to the others on this one... Great thread!!!:hammer:

The Bible say in Romans 1:20 that “ For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.”


I like to be clear. I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob. I accept The Bible!



1. What proof do you have of the existence of God?

Innately there is that witness. The longer I live, the more I get to know God, the more I observe humanity, the more that innate knowledge is revealed and confirm. Also, interacting and observing the frustration and futile efforts of those that "will not" accept God as they try to 'make sense of life' further confirms this. Man independent of God is kinda jokey.... really! Sad though!


2. How can someone look at all of this life around them and not believe in God?

Because "intelligent" ppl realize that to confess that there IS a God and yet resist Him openly is simply "foolish"! (mine you, The Bible did says "the FOOL has said in his heart 'there in NO God'...) and, "The fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom..." (no so politically correc' lang.)


2. How can someone look at all of this life around them and not believe in God?

Most ppl. believe in some 'Higher being/force/God?'. The God of the Christian is NOT convenient for most --- particularly as they begin to place their faith in THEMSELVES.... any thing else threatens their control/independence... The Christian God demands "DIE TO SELF".... live in Jesus Christ!


4. How can it be proved to others the God exists?

You know I really don't think there is a need to ...

However, the Christian is to DEMONSTRATE Jesus in His everyday life -- bringing to bear His kingdom --- too many of us (Christians!) underestimate the power of that testimony. Man without God is a downward spiral... regardless of education, social status, or means!


5. What proof do you have that He doesn't exist?

I'll listen to the others on this one... Great thread!!!:hammer:

BURP :D

Would any one disagree if i said G_d is what you make him/her/it to be? So if you see yourself as christian you see G_d as a christian G_d. Depending on your experiences your understanding of an ultimate being. Likewise if your chinese, black, white your idea of the savior is going to fit your image. Just a thought

The Bible says in Gen1:1 "In the Beginning God" the Bible goes on to say that He is the Alpha and Omega the beginning and the End. Ladies and Gentlemen God exist. God did not just happen or just popped up He always was. Keep i mind that God is perfect i all is ways, He is all knowing, All Powerful, and never changing. A God who is that perfect and incomprehensible, how can he then be comprehended by imperfect man. Thats why he gave us Hid Word you want to know about me read my Book , you want to know certain things Read the Bible (King James Bible)
Yes Ladies and Gentlemen God is real, and He is the only One and True God. The Bible goes on to say in Psalms a Fool has said in his heart that there is no God.

The Bible says in Gen1:1 "In the Beginning God" the Bible goes on to say that He is the Alpha and Omega the beginning and the End. Ladies and Gentlemen God exist. God did not just happen or just popped up He always was. Keep i mind that God is perfect i all is ways, He is all knowing, All Powerful, and never changing. A God who is that perfect and incomprehensible, how can he then be comprehended by imperfect man. Thats why he gave us Hid Word you want to know about me read my Book , you want to know certain things Read the Bible (King James Bible)
Yes Ladies and Gentlemen God is real, and He is the only One and True God. The Bible goes on to say in Psalms a Fool has said in his heart that there is no God.
A picture is worth a thousand words?
http://shonari.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/circular-reasoning.png

A picture is worth a thousand words?
http://shonari.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/circular-reasoning.pngCLASSIC!

That picture is worth a million words on some of the threads on this board!

*a lot of people are caught up on tradition, christian and non-christian alike.
*as I suggested, if you were to take a poll on many issues that christians speak out against and exclude the christians from voting, it is my opinion that many of the issues that are being challenged by the christians will still not be embraced by the non christians.
Also I said earlier, the bible has been proven to be accurate by many scientific discoveries, and also proven many 'scientific facts' and 'traditions' This I gotta see prove it. to be wrong and often exactly opposite to what science had deemed factual.
I have many to post as proof, but they have to be manually typed - with references.
for example many historical events in the bible have been proven by new science discoveries that science previously said were false claims, and the bible stated these claims as factual before the old 'facts' were proven wrong by new 'facts'.
I say many times 'our perception of the truth does not change the truth',
so standing on your 'own truth' is not the way to go, as what we perceive to be the truth is almost always based on our individual biases.
This pretty much makes tradition a bad thing, but a lot of tradition is fact not perceived fact, a lot of tradition and fact is still not actual fact yet, just perceived to be factual.
Practice does not make you perfect it only makes you good at what you practice. No matter how wrong or right it is.
"I stand on the ground of my truth, there is no place else to stand." --Helen Klonaris
and this is why we debate, we are all arguing about our perceptions of the truth
I can be wrong, but the bible still seems to be more fact based than any other source, and no wonder as it is said to be inspired by God, and man perception is always changing, but God's perception of the truth has alway's been the same.
not saying that christianity is all truth based, it is our perception of the truth, our belief, our faith - many religions are based on the bible not just christianity.
Don't we all beleive there is a God deep down inside, maybe even ONE God?
James 2
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
:cheers:

ok vicky ...
John 4
48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
but maybe tomorrow, me and most of my family camping out at a beach house tonight out adelaide.
:cheers:
enjoy the rest of the weekend.
i'll try to post some tomorrow or monday.
ok cool have fun with your family.