Based on my research, Europeans and their decedents (Caucasian Americans) are the starters and propagators of the idea of race.
Partly true. They categorized it but race was always there. "The division of humanity into distinct "races" can be traced as far back as the Ancient Egyptian sacred text the Book of Gates, which identifies four races of mankind known to the Egyptians." see http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Race#Origins
But it is true that to groups like the Third Reich and those who "invented" Apartheid, race was important to know.

What happens if someone from one area of the world has offsprings with someone else in another part of the world with different traits. Their offspring is biracial?
That is right. I have European blood, Jewish, and North American Indian! What does that make me? (I would have been in trouble with the two groups mentioned above!!) :)

Rubbish…
From a every day human stand point you are right. Who really cares? No one is really "pure" anything. We are all biracial mongrels. :shhh:

By the way, welcome to the site! :cheers:

From a every day human stand point you are right. Who really cares? No one is really "pure" anything. We are all biracial mongrels. :shhh:


You know you wrong saying that the entire world is a biracial mongrel...man there are white people and black people in this world who have never seen a different race in their lives save on television. Besides, I cannot claim anything in which I cannot prove...
There may be some white in me, but it highly unlikely, therefore, until someone can prove otherwise, I am 100% black...at least I think...unless, I am apart of that loss tribe of juda...

You know you wrong saying that the entire world is a biracial mongrel...man there are white people and black people in this world who have never seen a different race in their lives save on television.
I was speaking in general terms, and mostly about us in the Bahamas. And it is a general term that is getting more "truer" each day.

Besides, I cannot claim anything in which I cannot prove...
There may be some white in me, but it highly unlikely, therefore, until someone can prove otherwise, I am 100% black...at least I think...unless, I am apart of that loss tribe of juda...

Could be!

Partly true. They categorized it but race was always there. "The division of humanity into distinct "races" can be traced as far back as the Ancient Egyptian sacred text the Book of Gates, which identifies four races of mankind known to the Egyptians." see http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Race#Origins
But it is true that to groups like the Third Reich and those who "invented" Apartheid, race was important to know.


That is right. I have European blood, Jewish, and North American Indian! What does that make me? (I would have been in trouble with the two groups mentioned above!!) :)


From a every day human stand point you are right. Who really cares? No one is really "pure" anything. We are all biracial mongrels. :shhh:

By the way, welcome to the site! :cheers:



Thank you CG for enlightening me about the views of the Egyptians. I was not aware of that. However, if we were to go back even further in time (via the theory of evolution, the teachings of Christianity, and Judaism, etc), we will see that they all share the common construct that man came from one place.

It is possible even today for any “race” trait to come from a pure African. I have seen evidence of this from many scientific sources… Then there is the fact that we as human beings are very adaptable. It is not hard to assume that natural selection and adaptation were catalysts in the flavors of man we have today.

Also, what is race? Specific traits that are apparently unique to one “race” (e.g. Caucasian) are not unique to that group of people in truth. The aborigines of Australia posses some of the same traits as the Europeans. They have no known ties to Europe…

We as Bahamians (dark or light skinned) possibly can produce offspring having different traits. This is simply because the offspring has a richer gene pool.

I believe that if “race” were real, then genetic incompatibility between the “races” would exist. It would not be possible to mate a fish with an iguana (through natural means) and produce an offspring for example.

man we all came from the cave man, and before that, apes ... forget what the bible sais about it, thats the scientific facts .. :shaky:

Thank you CG for enlightening me about the views of the Egyptians. I was not aware of that. However, if we were to go back even further in time (via the theory of evolution, the teachings of Christianity, and Judaism, etc), we will see that they all share the common construct that man came from one place.
True. In science it is called the "Out of Africa" Theory.

It is possible even today for any "race" trait to come from a pure African. I have seen evidence of this from many scientific sources…
I am not sure what you mean. But if you mean, can an African have traits that can be passed on, then yes, he can and does.

Then there is the fact that we as human beings are very adaptable. It is not hard to assume that natural selection and adaptation were catalysts in the flavors of man we have today.
That is the Theory of Evolution. Natural selection has made us what we are.

Also, what is race? Specific traits that are apparently unique to one "race" (e.g. Caucasian) are not unique to that group of people in truth. The aborigines of Australia posses some of the same traits as the Europeans. They have no known ties to Europe…
We have to remember that race is really a classification of a person within a species. There is but one species of human around today - that is Homo sapien but there are variations within a the species. Lets us take for example the dog. They are all Canines but there is a lot of difference (on the outside, as well as inside i.e. the bones) between a Great Dane and a Chihuahua! There is also a difference between a White European and an Eskimo, but both are Homo sapiens. What is unique to each race is the bone structure, the color of the skin and some diseases that one race might suffer from but not the other. The differences in intelligence depends on the test given.

We as Bahamians (dark or light skinned) possibly can produce offspring having different traits. This is simply because the offspring has a richer gene pool.
That is the main thing in evolution, a large gene pool. I believe that many of the other kinds of humanoids died out because to a number of things, but a small gene pool played a part.

As for traits between Black and White. They are only limited to the color of the skin and the structure of the skeleton, as well as a few diseases. Their ability to absorb information (intelligence) is the same

I believe that if "race" were real, then genetic incompatibility between the "races" would exist. It would not be possible to mate a fish with an iguana (through natural means) and produce an offspring for example.
A fish is a member of a different species from the Iguana. Mating would not be possible. But a Labrador dog can mate with a Poodle because they are of the same species. A donkey and a horse can mate, with help from a human!. They produce a Mule, but a Mule is infertile they cannot reproduce. As humans are all from the same species we can mate and produce a child who may straddle two races, but one will always dominate. That child can go on to reproduce. Over time a new race might evolve.

There are genes within us all. These dictate everything about us. Some genes are dominate, some are not. But no matter how we mix our "blood" we still remain Homo sapiens. We may look different, we may think differently but that is due more to nurture than nature.

Race is! It is natures way of adapting the human to live and thrive in different climate situations. We have used it to divide, to exclude, to catagorize intelligence. This is a miss use. We are all of the same family. As an old girlfriend (before I was married!!) Said, "I can see no difference!" By the way, she was blind. Perhaps, because we can look, we don't see! We are more alike that we are different. When it comes to the interaction of races, my old girlfriend was right there are no differences worth looking at

Interesting words CG. It seems that you do your homework well. Nevertheless, as evidence I present the Bahamian people - a lot of us have evenly distributed traits... Some of us do not fit into one classification of "race". Also, our blood sibling from the same parents may look like someone from a different "race".

By your definition of “race”, I agree with you. But if you are saying that race is like water and oil (cannot be mixed), to this I disagree. By your own words, a large gene pool is a major factor of all the traits of man. Yet, you seem to imply that some traits are reserved for one race… How else can you distinguish the dominant race if not by comparing traits?

It is true that an iguana and a fish are from different species, but they are both reptiles. I deliberately chose them to make the point that if there were a real biological division, there would be incompatibilities. A horse and a donkey cannot produce offspring via natural means. They are truly two “races”. A lion and a house cat cannot produce offspring by natural means. They too are real divisions of the same species.

The same is not so with man.

Interesting words CG. It seems that you do your homework well. Nevertheless, as evidence I present the Bahamian people - a lot of us have evenly distributed traits... Some of us do not fit into one classification of "race". Also, our blood sibling from the same parents may look like someone from a different "race".
This is true. Mixing of races produce different looking offspring. Sometimes they have new traits. Defining, or classifying a person of mixed blood is difficult. But we must be careful when we talk about traits. There are inherited traits and acquired ones. Many of the traits we have are acquired ones: the way we talk, walk, or carry ourselves. The way we think is also acquired - the ability to think is inherited.

By your definition of "race", I agree with you. But if you are saying that race is like water and oil (cannot be mixed), to this I disagree.
I disagree too! I never suggested such a thing. We are ALL members of the species, Homo sapien.

By your own words, a large gene pool is a major factor of all the traits of man. Yet, you seem to imply that some traits are reserved for one race…
Not at all reserved! Yet, they can be use to distinguish one from another.

How else can you distinguish the dominant race if not by comparing traits?
You can't! By the way. What is the dominant race? Regionally, one might say that the dominant race of the Bahamas is Negroid, but for the US it would be Caucasoid. For the world I would say it would be Mongoloid.

It is true that an iguana and a fish are from different species, but they are both reptiles.
No, fish are fish. The Iguana is a reptile.

I deliberately chose them to make the point that if there were a real biological division, there would be incompatibilities.
True, but a Black man and a White man are not from different species. There is no biological impediments to inter breeding.

A horse and a donkey cannot produce offspring via natural means. They are truly two "races".
Actually, they are both from the Ruminant family. They are related but not close enough to inter breed. We belong to the Primate family. We are related to the apes, monkeys etc. yet we cannot breed with them! We can, however breed with other members of the Homo sapien family.

A lion and a house cat cannot produce offspring by natural means. They too are real divisions of the same species.
The same problems here as I mentioned above.

The word "race" is an unfortunate one. We have been using it here in a scientific manner but as far as I can recall we do not use the term for any other of the living things that walk the earth.

Race should be a scientific designation only. It should not come into our social life, our political one, or our religious life. Unfortunately, it often does and when it does it causes nothing but trouble.

If it was up to me, I would replace the word, with the words "a variation on a theme." The "theme" being human, the "variation" being the racial differences, which are small at best. :)

True, I still mix the reptile thing up. (always a problem in school) Nevertheless, the point is still exactly the same...

My encyclopedia states that "race" refers to groups of people, not their distinct traits, even though some groups of people have had specific active traits for centuries. The second excerpt basically defines what it is to be Bahamian. The last excerpt is to help show which era your judgment of race is coming from. Here are the facts below:

Race, Human, the identification within a species of subpopulations whose members share with one another a greater degree of common inheritance than they share with individuals from other such subpopulations. The primary application of the concept of race is to subpopulations of the human species, and race is thus a term that ordinarily applies to groups of people. Applied to an individual, race refers to membership in a group, and not to aspects of the person's appearance, such as skin color. No two human beings, not even twins, are identical, and groups of human beings differ from one another in many biological characteristics. The proportions of traits and, to an extent, even the kinds of traits are differently distributed from one part of the world to another. In the past, when people traveled less and marriages were likely to be between neighbors, races tended to develop and be retained as geographic entities. Although some historic conceptions of race were thus based on geographic variation in physical traits such as skin color and hair form, such traits can accurately be used to ascribe a person to a race only insofar as they were inherited from ancestors belonging to the population in question.


Every individual has two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on, to many billions of ancestors as far back as ancient times. The world did not then contain that many people; most early ancestors, if known, would appear over and over again as progenitors of many different lines of descent. This is what is meant by inbreeding. Inbreeding helps to maintain both a degree of separation among subpopulations and a degree of similarity within such populations. Human experience also includes countless instances of outbreeding with members of other groups. Thus, over time, it becomes impossible to separate one race from another race.


"Race, Human," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



_______________________________________________________________________


Many individuals can be classified into more than one race or into none. Races are defined in terms of membership in populations; they represent persons with the same pool of ancestors. Except for brothers and sisters, however, virtually no individuals have precisely the same ancestors. It is impossible to divide all humans into a small number of discrete social, biological, or geographic groups in such a way that everybody belongs to one and only one.



"Race, Human," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



_______________________________________________________________________

Until the mid-1900s, many scientific theories of race held that all people of a specific racial designation had characteristic physical features that varied little from person to person. In this photo, two Australian Aborigines have distinctly blonde hair, a characteristic once thought to be restricted to the so-called Caucasian races. Anthropologists now know that all human populations have significant physical and biological variability, sometimes greater than the differences between racial groups.



"Judging Race," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

True, I still mix the reptile thing up. (always a problem in school) Nevertheless, the point is still exactly the same...

My encyclopedia states that "race" refers to groups of people, not their distinct traits, even though some groups of people have had specific active traits for centuries. The second excerpt basically defines what it is to be Bahamian. The last excerpt is to help show which era your judgment of race is coming from. Here are the facts below:

Race, Human, the identification within a species of subpopulations whose members share with one another a greater degree of common inheritance than they share with individuals from other such subpopulations. The primary application of the concept of race is to subpopulations of the human species, and race is thus a term that ordinarily applies to groups of people. Applied to an individual, race refers to membership in a group, and not to aspects of the person's appearance, such as skin color. No two human beings, not even twins, are identical, and groups of human beings differ from one another in many biological characteristics. The proportions of traits and, to an extent, even the kinds of traits are differently distributed from one part of the world to another. In the past, when people traveled less and marriages were likely to be between neighbors, races tended to develop and be retained as geographic entities. Although some historic conceptions of race were thus based on geographic variation in physical traits such as skin color and hair form, such traits can accurately be used to ascribe a person to a race only insofar as they were inherited from ancestors belonging to the population in question.


Every individual has two parents, four grandparents, eight great-grandparents, and so on, to many billions of ancestors as far back as ancient times. The world did not then contain that many people; most early ancestors, if known, would appear over and over again as progenitors of many different lines of descent. This is what is meant by inbreeding. Inbreeding helps to maintain both a degree of separation among subpopulations and a degree of similarity within such populations. Human experience also includes countless instances of outbreeding with members of other groups. Thus, over time, it becomes impossible to separate one race from another race.


"Race, Human," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



_______________________________________________________________________


Many individuals can be classified into more than one race or into none. Races are defined in terms of membership in populations; they represent persons with the same pool of ancestors. Except for brothers and sisters, however, virtually no individuals have precisely the same ancestors. It is impossible to divide all humans into a small number of discrete social, biological, or geographic groups in such a way that everybody belongs to one and only one.



"Race, Human," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



_______________________________________________________________________

Until the mid-1900s, many scientific theories of race held that all people of a specific racial designation had characteristic physical features that varied little from person to person. In this photo, two Australian Aborigines have distinctly blonde hair, a characteristic once thought to be restricted to the so-called Caucasian races. Anthropologists now know that all human populations have significant physical and biological variability, sometimes greater than the differences between racial groups.



"Judging Race," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.


I agree with most of the excerpts you posted. I think we agree more than we disagree.

As the line of Homo sapien extended from a common ancestor, there are bound to be common traits. But as Homo sapiens, and other humanoid groups, now extinct, migrated to different areas of the world some trait we selected for: dark skin in areas where there was a lot of sun, fair skin where there was less sun. These traits were of great benefit to survival.

Ignoring race does not make it go away. Pretending it is not there will not make it go away. Understanding it will allow us to see that race, and all its traits, are just regional survival mechanisms. Just like a man in Bahamas can walk around bare-back, but his brother in the North Pole has to wear a heavy coat. These are just the outward appearances. The man in Africa wears a black skin. The one in Europe wears a white one! But as we now can move around the world at lighting speed, and change our environment for survival - something early Homo sapiens could not do, skin color has become unnecessary. Skin color has lost most of its survival importance. Yet, we are "stuck" in a feeling that race is still important. I think the reason is important to understand.

The human is a tribal being. There is a deep human need to "belong" both for its social value and survival. Skin color is a convenient way to distinguish one tribe from another. When that option is not available i.e. everyone in a given area is the same color, then things like circumcision, scarification, tatoos and other ways of altering the body become the markers of the tribe. These are all acquired traits.

We live in a part of the world were tribal markers are not needed, but they persist in the way we dress, talk and think and even in the cars we drive!!! The problem is, we need to respect the other tribes no matter what their differences. Pretending that they are not there is not a good thing. We have to see them, understand them, and respect them. As the human race inter-breeds more and more, these acquired traits will become more and more common as man tries to find his tribe. Some inherited traits will also remain, we must understand them as well.

I believe there are different races, hundreds of them and new ones yet to be created. We have to learn now how to see them and respect them for what they are. It is possible, but not likely, that mankind might lose its skin color and may become a dull gray in color. But there will still be ways of putting people into diffident tribes because it is deeply ingrained in the human mind. This modern trend of pretending there are no traits is not doing the human race a favor. We are all one, but with splendid differences - race being but one of them. :cheers:

So, you stand to your conviction about race in spite of the facts presented from a reputable source? Well, more power to you. Not all things written are necessarily true (Like the history of The Bahamas, via European writers).

Tribes are we? It is strange that the only “tribes” I have encountered in my short life that have an issue with other tribes or a need to “acknowledge” their existence, just happen to be from Europe or America (I speak of tribe in the context you used it).

Well, let us agree to disagree... I concur that the racist ones of this life need race to help establish that they are “different” from their brothers and sisters (or should I say distant cousins). Once their difference is established, then they can claim their superiority (Hitler was European right?).

Anyone watched “La Amistad”? It is no surprise to me that the whole race thing always seems to be BLACK – WHITE in nature. (From a need to brainwash their slaves into subjection). What about all the colors in between?

I never saw a Hispanic have racial issues with so called Blacks... (Si hablas espanol, eres mi hermano o mi hermana) I never saw an Asian have racial issues with either of the other two... The Japanese prime minister insulted so called Blacks and Hispanics in America once before concerning intelligence (I believe this was political), but I know that society very well to know where his statements did not come from. Watashi ha nihon-jin dewa arimasen... So what?!

I believe that race is real today, but only in the eyes of the racist ones who propagated their perverted definition of race in the first place (Also in the eyes of those who have been misguided by this).

So, you stand to your conviction about race in spite of the facts presented from a reputable source? Well, more power to you. Not all things written are necessarily true (Like the history of The Bahamas, via European writers).

Tribes are we? It is strange that the only “tribes” I have encountered in my short life that have an issue with other tribes or a need to “acknowledge” their existence, just happen to be from Europe or America (I speak of tribe in the context you used it).

Well, let us agree to disagree... I concur that the racist ones of this life need race to help establish that they are “different” from their brothers and sisters (or should I say distant cousins). Once their difference is established, then they can claim their superiority (Hitler was European right?).

Anyone watched “La Amistad”? It is no surprise to me that the whole race thing always seems to be BLACK – WHITE in nature. (From a need to brainwash their slaves into subjection). What about all the colors in between?

I never saw a Hispanic have racial issues with so called Blacks... (Si hablas espanol, eres mi hermano o mi hermana) I never saw an Asian have racial issues with either of the other two... The Japanese prime minister insulted so called Blacks and Hispanics in America once before concerning intelligence (I believe this was political), but I know that society very well to know where his statements did not come from. Watashi ha nihon-jin dewa arimasen... So what?!

I believe that race is real today, but only in the eyes of the racist ones who propagated their perverted definition of race in the first place (Also in the eyes of those who have been misguided by this).


I agree that there are those who have, and still do, used race for perverted reasons and I condemn that! Hitler was a prime example. Had he won the war, I might have been in trouble as I have Jewish blood in my veins. I should also point out that Japan used race in the last World War. They believed that theirs was the superior race and all the rest of us were inferior. My late Uncle spent time in a Japanese prisoner of war camp - he heard the remarks first hand.

Because we live in this side of the world, we see the Black - White issue but that is not the only issue. Race had and is still being used, world wide to justify outrages. I can see why people want to get rid of the concept of race but it is not going way. I have pointed out, a number of times, that we are all of the same family - that is what we need to learn. If one wants to hate another group, race is a poor excuse - a convenient one, but poor none the less.

In my family we have a number of members of mixed race, by birth as well as by marriage - at least six different ones. A few generations ago this would have been outrageous! But I see it as a wonderful thing - full of interest and new things to learn from them. Perhaps I am unusual, but I see race as a positive, not a negative.

No offense, but your uncle was the enemy and America does not only have Caucasians enlisted... The Japanese couldn't possibly be logically talking about race, were they were referring to Americans on the whole. Also, they held themselves superior to the Chinese as well. China is their closest cousin, yet they distinguished that civilization (not race – by your definition) as inferior... It is no worst than the Bahamas saying it is the greatest little nation in the world... Do you think the Haitians think we are racist?

The Japanese did not go the extra mile and oppress the Chinese. (Europeans claimed that Africans themselves had slaves. This was their propaganda to justify their evil work. The term “servant” was deliberately replaced with “slave”. A family dept was often paid off with labor. This was also practiced in China.)

If China is a separate race from Japan, then The Bahamas is a separate race from America. We generally see all Americans in a certain light. As a group of people, they are different from us. I dare say that we do not have a lot of the problems that they have. Why adopt some of them?

By the way, after several years of learning of that civilization (Japan) from an intimate perspective, I have concluded and verified that they are not racist. They see things very different from the west. They were however, very particular with preserving blood lines. Some clans could not interbreed with others. It was mainly a “class” thing. (The same is still so in India.) Several decades ago, it was unthinkable to assimilate a foreigner.

It was Americans who insisted that Tiger not call himself Asian... Do you think his family in Asia saw him as anything else? America is a very sick place from many perspectives. So is Europe.

One good thing about living in The Bahamas is that if you want to, you can mix and mingle with people from all over the world. A great way to go out and see for yourself who really are the ones propagating this nonsense we call “racial tension”. Be careful of the ones that look like a certain person missing in Aruba though... (You might get arrested – accused of a felony)

That's a stereotype and I am wrong for writing it, but these are the kinds of messages they bombard us with all the time. Cable mainly has US channels... (One or two with strong European influences) I found that I have programmed myself to automatically filter out the nonsense that shows on cable sometimes.

(Europeans claimed that Africans themselves had slaves. This was their propaganda to justify their evil work...

all "europeans" had servants..?
what about the peasants .. they made up the majority.

If China is a separate race from Japan, then The Bahamas is a separate race from America. We generally see all Americans in a certain light. As a group of people, they are different from us. I dare say that we do not have a lot of the problems that they have. why adopt some of them?

Yep, we dont have much of anything that they have, and they dont have alot of problems we have, except for their ghettos of course.

It was Americans who insisted that Tiger not call himself Asian... Do you think his family in Asia saw him as anything else? America is a very sick place from many perspectives. So is Europe.

Is it ?? I dont recall America saying Tiger is not to call himself an asian.
Did congress make a vote on it or something?

One good thing about living in The Bahamas is that if you want to, you can mix and mingle with people from all over the world.

You are judging a whole society on their tourists??.
Also i mixed with more foreignors when i lived in NY and London, specially when we have nowhere here to "mix" with anyone ..

Cable mainly has US channels... (One or two with strong European influences) I found that I have programmed myself to automatically filter out the nonsense that shows on cable sometimes.


Yeah, especially BET and ZNS .. :shaky: and all those dumb canadian channels ..

The Japanese did not go the extra mile and oppress the Chinese.

Are you aware of the Japanese atrocities committed during WWII?

Between 1932 and 1945 Japan experiments included testing biological weapons on humans and attacked 11 Chinese cities with bioweapons. The Japanese had made significant progress learning about traditional bio-warefare agents like botulism and anthrax. From '38 to '45 they carried out experiments on US POW's at Miken POW Camp in northeast China. By 1945 Japan had stockpiled 400 kg of anthrax. In 1940 a plaque epidemic in China and Manchuria followed reported overflights by Japanese planes dropping plaque infected fleas as well as cholera and typhiod infections in ponds and wells. As many as 200,000 Chinese died of bubonic plaque, colera, anthrax and other diseases.

The above is a summary of http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/japan/bw/

It wasn't until 1972 that Japan agreed to the Convention on the Prohibition of the Deveopment, Production and Stockpiling of Bio and Toxic Weapons. :what: