You give yourself to much credit. Your not qualified to speak for all Bahamian people and i never considered that you were. My comments are directed to you. You again speak about "we Bahamians" in an attempts to separate me from you. FYI ...You don’t speak for me either.
People don’t employ "tactics" to rebut prejudice. We use truth, common sense and decency.
Im sure there are many problematic Haitians. Just as there are many problematic (fill in the blank). Im taking issue with your unjust and overly broad generalizations. Your sound bites of animosity. Although its nice to see you finally note that there are many good Haitian people out there. Baby steps....but its a start.
But im moving on....waving my white flag of i've had enough of Yorricks (not Bahamians) pseudo intellectual rhetoric. Ive said it before. People of intellect, reason and morality can have different opinions. This is not a conversation between you and I. I know what you think. You know what i think. Im interested in hearing what other "fellow" Bahamians think.
nice try? at what? this aint a competition.
suck teet. And what exactly would my agenda be? Maybe to put the mirror to your face. Go ahead ..... take a look. The culture is fragile....and much needs to be done. Just make sure you approach the issue with your eyes open and not with your ears inflammed with false rhetoric.

What is your agenda? Well my good fellow,only you really know that,but my intuitive instincts would say that; You have a distinct need to demand a sense of "fair play" probably stemming with your need to constantly justify your "homosexual lifestyle." Therefore demanding social reform,political correctness and a sense of fair play on all social issues.:hammer:

It is a heavy cross you have assigned yourself to carry,I hope you have the strength bear it and I wish you well.:)

As for your insult; suck teet? Yes I have....but only female ones! BTW/
The person I complimented seems to have a much better grip on this issue then you.:taped2:

What is your agenda? Well my good fellow,only you really know that,but my intuitive instincts would say that; You have a distinct need to demand a sense of "fair play" probably stemming with your need to constantly justify your "homosexual lifestyle." Therefore demanding social reform,political correctness and a sense of fair play on all social issues.:hammer:
It is a heavy cross you have assigned yourself to carry,I hope you have the strength bear it and I wish you well.:)
As for your insult; suck teet? Yes I have....but only female ones! BTW/
The person I complimented seems to have a much better grip on this issue then you.:taped2:


LOL (i.e. Laughing out loud) But first let me say i didnt mean suck teet as an insult. Certainely not the one it apparently was. And i dont really consider sucking teet as you've understood me to say a bad thing (unless its someone elses woman) ..... but all that to say.... that not what i meant to say. I was using lingo that i thought meant something else. Im not apologizing to you because youve seen fit to insult me several times and several ways......but i am clarifying that my use of suck teet was in unintended ignorance (i can admit) (maybe... because i stop sucking dem long ago :shhh: ) But i certainely wasnt telling you to put a breast in your mouth (lol again). If i were meaning that kind of insult dont you think my "homosexual lifestyle" could come up with something .....better for you to use?

But that is what i wrote. So maybe i unintentionally insulted you first. My bad.

As to the rest..... justifying my homosexual lifestyle? (to who? for what?) Thats such an ignorant thing to say that im not even going to waste time addressing it unless someone needs further clarification. Im not insulted by it ...and i think you really believe that.

You note that you (and someone with your views) supports Yorrick. i coulda guessed that. But i remain hopeful that the humanitarian in you (despite the homophobia and insults) can see the error of demonizing a whole population in an effort to create government action and create change.

And as for demanding social reform,political correctness and a sense of fair play on all social issues.....that is my cross to burden, and it is a very heavy one. I have the strength. I was blessed in many ways and for many things in my life. Thats not to high a burden for me to bear. Imagine the world we could live in if just a few more people thought that way. Instead we live off fear and prejudice and we sway public opinion not with facts but by placating their more basic primal emotions.

That type of political motivation......that type of creating false misleading mass hysteria..... is the root of some of the worlds greatest historical tragedies.

I always said that the immigration problem needs to be fixed. If i went out to people and started saying "white people are parading down bay street speaking conchy joe and waving white power flags" and "white people are taking over the drug trade and stealing from our people" and "white people are doing home invasions and robbing and beating and shooting up people". That white people were a plague on our culture and society and medical facilities ets... all in an effort to get Bahamians to address otherwise legitimate problems i would be in the wrong. I would be trying to get you to react to something by feeding you bad information. Even if some/many of those instances were true they would not be true for all/most white people. What i would have been doing is using fear and broad generalizations (and lies) and bias to get people to do what I want. Thats not how things should be done.

The propaganda which reinforces prejudice and becomes the prevailing position isn't wisdom nor factual. In this upside down world of ours these "faux-facts" are from doctored photos, video of a carnage as seen through peripherally limited myopic apertures and invented news that fits the views, sound bites. The story is what spin doctors decide it is. How someone feels is determined by preconceived views and lies told over and over again -- and not by informed rational deduction. The lies become the reality and the truth no longer matters.

The aim of propaganda is to influence people's opinions actively, rather than merely to communicate the facts about something. For example, propaganda might be used to garner either support or disapproval of a certain position, rather than to simply present the position. What separates propaganda from "normal" communication is in the subtle, often insidious, ways that the message attempts to shape opinion. For example, propaganda is often presented in a way that attempts to deliberately evoke a strong emotion, especially by suggesting illogical (or non-intuitive) relationships between concepts.

This sophisticated type of diversion utilizes the appearance of lively debate within, what is actually, a carefully focused spectrum, to generate and justify deliberately conceived assumptions. This technique avoids the distinctively biased appearance of one sided rhetoric, and works by presenting a contrived premise for an argument as if it were a universally accepted and obvious truth, so that the audience naturally assumes it to be correct.

In fact, the message in modern propaganda is often not blatantly untrue. But even if the message conveys only "true" information, it will generally contain partisan bias and fail to present a complete and balanced consideration of the issue. Another common characteristic of propaganda is volume (in the sense of a large amount). For example, a propagandist may seek to influence opinion by attempting to get a message heard in as many places as possible, and as often as possible. The intention of this approach is to a) reinforce an idea through repetition, and b) exclude or "drown out" any alternative ideas.

Techniques of propaganda generation

Glittering generalities: Glittering generalities are intense, emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. They appeal to such emotions as love of country, home; desire for peace, freedom, glory, honor, etc. They ask for approval without examination of the reason. Though the words and phrases are vague and suggest different things to different people their connotation is always favorable: "The concepts and programs of the propagandist are always good, desirable, virtuous." See also transfer and virtue words.

Oversimplification: Favorable generalities are used to provide simple answers to complex social, political, economic, or military problems.
Common man: The "plain folks" or "common man" approach attempts to convince the audience that the propagandist's positions reflect the common sense of the people. It is designed to win the confidence of the audience by communicating in the common manner and style of the target audience. Propagandists use ordinary language and mannerisms (and clothe their message in face-to-face and audiovisual communications) in attempting to identify their point of view with that of the average person.


Appeal to fear: Appeals to fear seek to build support by instilling fear in the general population, for example, Joseph Goebbels exploited Theodore Kaufman's Germany Must Perish! to claim that the Allies sought the extermination of the German people.

Bandwagon: Bandwagon and inevitable-victory appeals attempt to persuade the target audience to take the course of action that "everyone else is taking."

Stereotyping or Name Calling or Labeling: This technique attempts to arouse prejudices in an audience by labeling the object of the propaganda campaign as something the target audience fears, hates, loathes, or finds undesirable. For instance, reporting on a foreign country or social group may focus on the stereotypical traits that the reader expects, even though they are far from being representative of the whole country or group; such reporting often focuses on the anecdotal.

Scapegoating: Assigning blame to an individual or group that isn't really responsible, thus alleviating feelings of guilt from responsible parties and/or distracting attention from the need to fix the problem for which blame is being assigned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

And i didnt read any of this until today. If nothing else Yorrick you are at least textbook perfect in your use of it.


Like I said before, this situation has permeated all aspects of Bahamian society.
Just this weekend I watched a long line of cars traveling along Wulff Road celebrating Haiti's flag day (which was actually on the 18th). All of the cars were decorated with Haitian flags and the people within them were all happily shouting in Haitian Creole. I asked a few of the young Bahamians of Haitian descent standing along the side of the road what was happening and none of them could tell me. All that they knew was that "their people" were celebrating something, so they had to support them.
Those kids' attitudes are a symptom of a bigger problem that we Bahamians have created by not thinking ahead. We value the work ethic of the Haitian immigrants as it pertains to lower income jobs, but at the same time we do not take into account the effect that a continuous influx of "low income" immigrants has on our shores. Those Haitians who have arrived here know that they have a better life than what they would have had in Haiti, but they still do not feel truly indoctrinated into this society. Naturally they feel comfortable among their own and wish to create their own "society" within Bahamian society. Many Bahamians resent this, for we are a proud people who can see the circumvention of Bahamian t'ings. There isn't anything wrong with someone celebrating their heritage, but when it is done in a small country that already has an identity crisis, we have a recipe for disaster.
Some Bahamians do not see it this way, however, for their ties to those of Haitian descent are in some cases stronger than their ties to those of pure Bahamian heritage. They see nothing wrong with this steady deterioration of Bahamian society. They say that Bahamians have no culture anyway or are more Americanized, so we really have nothing to protect culturally. Then there are the "educated" folks who throw around words like xenophobia and would rather focus on the human rights aspects of illegal immigrants, rather than having the foresight to see how immigrants are in a very good position to overrun this country within the next 50 years.
With all that said, I choose my battles and allies more carefully nowadays. I am not “fronting” as you claim, A1000. The battle to alleviate this situation will not be an easy one, for every aspect of our society has been compromised. There are very few persons nowadays that Bahamians can trust to look out for the good of Bahamians. Do you understand this?

The propaganda which reinforces prejudice and becomes the prevailing position isn't wisdom nor factual. In this upside down world of ours these "faux-facts" are from doctored photos, video of a carnage as seen through peripherally limited myopic apertures and invented news that fits the views, sound bites. The story is what spin doctors decide it is. How someone feels is determined by preconceived views and lies told over and over again -- and not by informed rational deduction. The lies become the reality and the truth no longer matters.

The aim of propaganda is to influence people's opinions actively, rather than merely to communicate the facts about something. For example, propaganda might be used to garner either support or disapproval of a certain position, rather than to simply present the position. What separates propaganda from "normal" communication is in the subtle, often insidious, ways that the message attempts to shape opinion. For example, propaganda is often presented in a way that attempts to deliberately evoke a strong emotion, especially by suggesting illogical (or non-intuitive) relationships between concepts.

This sophisticated type of diversion utilizes the appearance of lively debate within, what is actually, a carefully focused spectrum, to generate and justify deliberately conceived assumptions. This technique avoids the distinctively biased appearance of one sided rhetoric, and works by presenting a contrived premise for an argument as if it were a universally accepted and obvious truth, so that the audience naturally assumes it to be correct.

In fact, the message in modern propaganda is often not blatantly untrue. But even if the message conveys only "true" information, it will generally contain partisan bias and fail to present a complete and balanced consideration of the issue. Another common characteristic of propaganda is volume (in the sense of a large amount). For example, a propagandist may seek to influence opinion by attempting to get a message heard in as many places as possible, and as often as possible. The intention of this approach is to a) reinforce an idea through repetition, and b) exclude or "drown out" any alternative ideas.

Techniques of propaganda generation

Glittering generalities: Glittering generalities are intense, emotionally appealing words so closely associated with highly valued concepts and beliefs that they carry conviction without supporting information or reason. They appeal to such emotions as love of country, home; desire for peace, freedom, glory, honor, etc. They ask for approval without examination of the reason. Though the words and phrases are vague and suggest different things to different people their connotation is always favorable: "The concepts and programs of the propagandist are always good, desirable, virtuous." See also transfer and virtue words.

Oversimplification: Favorable generalities are used to provide simple answers to complex social, political, economic, or military problems.
Common man: The "plain folks" or "common man" approach attempts to convince the audience that the propagandist's positions reflect the common sense of the people. It is designed to win the confidence of the audience by communicating in the common manner and style of the target audience. Propagandists use ordinary language and mannerisms (and clothe their message in face-to-face and audiovisual communications) in attempting to identify their point of view with that of the average person.


Appeal to fear: Appeals to fear seek to build support by instilling fear in the general population, for example, Joseph Goebbels exploited Theodore Kaufman's Germany Must Perish! to claim that the Allies sought the extermination of the German people.

Bandwagon: Bandwagon and inevitable-victory appeals attempt to persuade the target audience to take the course of action that "everyone else is taking."

Stereotyping or Name Calling or Labeling: This technique attempts to arouse prejudices in an audience by labeling the object of the propaganda campaign as something the target audience fears, hates, loathes, or finds undesirable. For instance, reporting on a foreign country or social group may focus on the stereotypical traits that the reader expects, even though they are far from being representative of the whole country or group; such reporting often focuses on the anecdotal.

Scapegoating: Assigning blame to an individual or group that isn't really responsible, thus alleviating feelings of guilt from responsible parties and/or distracting attention from the need to fix the problem for which blame is being assigned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

And i didnt read any of this until today. If nothing else Yorrick you are at least textbook perfect in your use of it.


Man you are a lost cause, A1000.

Now you dare to call THE FACTS propaganda and actually have the gumption to say that the facts which Bahamians see and experience everyday are lies. I dare you to counter any of the arguments that I presented. Read the newspaper, watch the television, take a ride around town, especially in the lesser developed areas - you would be able to see for yourself. Just a few days ago Minister Shane Gibson said in the newspaper that we cannot afford to give a period of amnesty for illegal immigrants in terms of permits because Bahamians in Grand Bahama are actually at a disadvantage and not being hired. When employers selfishly prefer to hire an immigrant for half the salary that they would pay the average citizen, Bahamians suffer. Yet here you are, calling the facts of this immigration situation propaganda. I know that we Bahamians can be hard headed, but for someone who has not been home in years, is out of touch with the average Bahamian and is pandering to misguided and oversensitive opinions which weaken Bahamian rights to speak out for our own country, YOU are beyond stubborn.

All that you just did in your last response is to give the "wikipedia" definition of "propaganda" and hope that Bahamians weren't paying enough attention to the facts about the immigrant population that were laid out clearly before them.

"We see the rapidly growing number of illegal immigrants in our communities; we see the drug gangs and their "shipments" of drugs and guns come in (with more illegal immigrants, I might add); we see the shanty houses being built with no housing permits on stolen land; we see the government handing out work visas as if they were candy (due to traitors within the system); and we see how Bahamians are finding it harder to utilize or are even being turned away from our health and education systems due to overburdening by this group of immigrants."

So you mean to tell me that the above paragraph is propaganda? Or even my other post that you quoted? Any Bahamian with two eyes knows that my quoted examples are facts. If they were simply propaganda, then that means that someone could easily come along and refute them. I dare you to attempt this. Oops...you cant, because you are the one who is spewing rhetoric from outside the country and trying to divert attention from the real matters at hand.

Just admit that your attack is personally addressed to me and that you just want to give an opposite stance to whatever I say. You're so focused on attempting to diminish my opinions that you dare to call the facts of the Haitian illegal situation in the Bahamas propaganda.

Treasonous behaviour indeed!

Bahamians can no longer keep our heads in the sand about this situation. As more facts come out, they need to be discussed and made public, instead of being hidden because it might reflect badly on someone. If it's true, let it be told! This is an open society. It is strange that we Bahamians often sacrifice our bred and born rights and privileges for elements that originate outside our society to our own detriment. Note that it is because of our "politically correct" attitudes that we are in our current situation. When we first had the chance to stem the tide of illegal immigrants, we balked out of sympathy, a few words by folks who said illegal immigration wasn't a such a big deal and our *ahem* Christian values. What good are Christian values when our governmental systems, which were designed for a Bahamian populous, crumble due to overpopulation and a continuous influx of lower class immigrants?

Let the truth be told, no matter whose "corns we may mash". It is my sincere belief that many Bahamians (no matter their parentage) are beginning to see, listen and understand the realities of relatively unhindered immigration and its effect on a small country. We had better protect what is ours and stand up for it.

:jawdroop: Hold up,wait a minute. A1000 sauce is a homo?

LOL (i.e. Laughing out loud) But first let me say i didnt mean suck teet as an insult. Certainely not the one it apparently was. And i dont really consider sucking teet as you've understood me to say a bad thing (unless its someone elses woman) ..... but all that to say.... that not what i meant to say. I was using lingo that i thought meant something else. Im not apologizing to you because youve seen fit to insult me several times and several ways......but i am clarifying that my use of suck teet was in unintended ignorance (i can admit) (maybe... because i stop sucking dem long ago :shhh: ) But i certainely wasnt telling you to put a breast in your mouth (lol again). If i were meaning that kind of insult dont you think my "homosexual lifestyle" could come up with something .....better for you to use?

But that is what i wrote. So maybe i unintentionally insulted you first. My bad.

As to the rest..... justifying my homosexual lifestyle? (to who? for what?) Thats such an ignorant thing to say that im not even going to waste time addressing it unless someone needs further clarification. Im not insulted by it ...and i think you really believe that.

You note that you (and someone with your views) supports Yorrick. i coulda guessed that. But i remain hopeful that the humanitarian in you (despite the homophobia and insults) can see the error of demonizing a whole population in an effort to create government action and create change.

And as for demanding social reform,political correctness and a sense of fair play on all social issues.....that is my cross to burden, and it is a very heavy one. I have the strength. I was blessed in many ways and for many things in my life. Thats not to high a burden for me to bear. Imagine the world we could live in if just a few more people thought that way. Instead we live off fear and prejudice and we sway public opinion not with facts but by placating their more basic primal emotions.

That type of political motivation......that type of creating false misleading mass hysteria..... is the root of some of the worlds greatest historical tragedies.

I always said that the immigration problem needs to be fixed. If i went out to people and started saying "white people are parading down bay street speaking conchy joe and waving white power flags" and "white people are taking over the drug trade and stealing from our people" and "white people are doing home invasions and robbing and beating and shooting up people". That white people were a plague on our culture and society and medical facilities ets... all in an effort to get Bahamians to address otherwise legitimate problems i would be in the wrong. I would be trying to get you to react to something by feeding you bad information. Even if some/many of those instances were true they would not be true for all/most white people. What i would have been doing is using fear and broad generalizations (and lies) and bias to get people to do what I want. Thats not how things should be done.

LOL......Ok wrong interpretation of syntax on my part.Perhaps ya meant sucking teeth as in (exasperation?) It do not matter brudda,you still not with it on dis issue! I respect your sentiment,BUT dis a issue of nationalism,of national cultural preservation.It is bigger than a simple human rights issue,as we may perish as a culture.I sorry if u disagree,but dat is the way it is with most of us! I done wit this,so bash Mr.Yorick all u want,he right,we right!

We are being used and can't afford it,we are being abused and won't tolerate it!:sailing:

say what ya want, but the out islands changed for good when the first dish went up. similar reports of cultural dilution have come in from all over the globe, based on saturation of 'western' media that focuses on consumption rather than creation. we're not exactly alone.

what about the drug trade?

Man you are a lost cause, A1000.

Now you dare to call THE FACTS propaganda and actually have the gumption to say that the facts which Bahamians see and experience everyday are lies. I dare you to counter any of the arguments that I presented. Read the newspaper, watch the television, take a ride around town, especially in the lesser developed areas - you would be able to see for yourself. Just a few days ago Minister Shane Gibson said in the newspaper that we cannot afford to give a period of amnesty for illegal immigrants in terms of permits because Bahamians in Grand Bahama are actually at a disadvantage and not being hired. When employers selfishly prefer to hire an immigrant for half the salary that they would pay the average citizen, Bahamians suffer. Yet here you are, calling the facts of this immigration situation propaganda. I know that we Bahamians can be hard headed, but for someone who has not been home in years, is out of touch with the average Bahamian and is pandering to misguided and oversensitive opinions which weaken Bahamian rights to speak out for our own country, YOU are beyond stubborn.

All that you just did in your last response is to give the "wikipedia" definition of "propaganda" and hope that Bahamians weren't paying enough attention to the facts about the immigrant population that were laid out clearly before them.

"We see the rapidly growing number of illegal immigrants in our communities; we see the drug gangs and their "shipments" of drugs and guns come in (with more illegal immigrants, I might add); we see the shanty houses being built with no housing permits on stolen land; we see the government handing out work visas as if they were candy (due to traitors within the system); and we see how Bahamians are finding it harder to utilize or are even being turned away from our health and education systems due to overburdening by this group of immigrants."

So you mean to tell me that the above paragraph is propaganda? Or even my other post that you quoted? Any Bahamian with two eyes knows that my quoted examples are facts. If they were simply propaganda, then that means that someone could easily come along and refute them. I dare you to attempt this. Oops...you cant, because you are the one who is spewing rhetoric from outside the country and trying to divert attention from the real matters at hand.

Just admit that your attack is personally addressed to me and that you just want to give an opposite stance to whatever I say. You're so focused on attempting to diminish my opinions that you dare to call the facts of the Haitian illegal situation in the Bahamas propaganda.

Treasonous behaviour indeed!

Bahamians can no longer keep our heads in the sand about this situation. As more facts come out, they need to be discussed and made public, instead of being hidden because it might reflect badly on someone. If it's true, let it be told! This is an open society. It is strange that we Bahamians often sacrifice our bred and born rights and privileges for elements that originate outside our society to our own detriment. Note that it is because of our "politically correct" attitudes that we are in our current situation. When we first had the chance to stem the tide of illegal immigrants, we balked out of sympathy, a few words by folks who said illegal immigration wasn't a such a big deal and our *ahem* Christian values. What good are Christian values when our governmental systems, which were designed for a Bahamian populous, crumble due to overpopulation and a continuous influx of lower class immigrants?

Let the truth be told, no matter whose "corns we may mash". It is my sincere belief that many Bahamians (no matter their parentage) are beginning to see, listen and understand the realities of relatively unhindered immigration and its effect on a small country. We had better protect what is ours and stand up for it.


This is bheart not a1000, im the homo (if thats the term u choose to use) not a1000, and im home all the time (several times a year).

This is bheart not a1000, im the homo (if thats the term u choose to use) not a1000, and im home all the time (several times a year).

but why single Yorick out, he explains his rationale quite well...I dont understand...that's why I asked you did you identify with the illegal immigrant because they, as homosexuals, are treated fairly the same in Bahamian society...
call this a bit far-fethcedm but is the genesis of this incessant rebuts to his statements lie in Yorick being a straight intelligent man compared to you being a gay intelligent man?

Haitians aren’t the problem. Europeans aren’t the problem. Americans aren’t the problem. Bahamians rule this country. What we do as a people is up to us. How we do it is up to us.

Crime, Poverty, Employment problems, Drugs, Violence all these things existed long before there was a “Haitian problem”. These are problems that many countries face in an increasingly global world that is quickly leading to a global culture. Unfortunately for us that culture is based primarily on the United States and its materialistic leanings. I don’t claim to know how we resolve it….(as I love my material possessions also). But I can at least be cognizant of the road we are traveling. Mass unchecked immigration will definitely create problems. Americanization of Bahamian values and cultures will also definitely create problems. Its in this globalization that the Bahamas will be faced with choices. Change is inevitable. But the choices you make are crucial.

What I am asking Bahamians to do is to reject the route that some of the other more imperialistic countries might choose. I only ask more because I think Bahamas is capable of more. Instead of Yorricks route (blame game, and castigation of the Haitian people and the whole “woe is me” we are in a war…. save our own *** at any cost route I think we must be capable of more. It’s a global world. We are in it. Why aren’t any of us asking: why do many Haitian people come here in the first place. What is wrong in their own country that makes them so desperate to leave? What can we do as an enlightened sophisticated regional country of significant power and controlled by Bahamian people. Build a wall, close our borders, mass deportation and a (black) cold shoulder to the Haitian people? To those other human beings?

Bahamas cannot solve the world’s problem!!! ….we face too many of our own local ones (that predate the Haitian problems….thats right….predate). I completely understand that. I’m not advocating for no change. I just think we would be creating all new problems if we all jumped on the I HATE HAITIANS THEY CAUSE ALL OUR PROBLEM bandwagon. That is not the answer. Do you really think thats true? Do you really think we would suddenly live in a fully employed, drug free, crime free, violence free, properly educated, scandal free country if all the Haitians were gone?

What am I saying is reject fear, bias and ignorance? The answer to this problem cant be to build a wall around our Islands and pretend the Haitian problems don’t exit. Do you really think that would work. Bahamas and Bahamian people are capable of doing more. And if not more….at least doing it with understanding and ethically. And even if not that….at least rejecting hysteria and unfair generalizations. I would hate to be a young hard working Haitian student in COB and read this board and think everyone thought like that.

but why single Yorick out, he explains his rationale quite well...I dont understand...that's why I asked you did you identify with the illegal immigrant because they, as homosexuals, are treated fairly the same in Bahamian society...
call this a bit far-fethcedm but is the genesis of this incessant rebuts to his statements lie in Yorick being a straight intelligent man compared to you being a gay intelligent man?


No. Not at all. And yorrick is intelligent....i can see that in his writings (altho at times misdirected...at least in my opinion). And i dont identify myself as a gay man....nor do i see Yorrick as a straight man. We are simply men (who he sleeps with has little to do the the crispness of his mind....and vice versa).. Other people like True....like to point out that i am gay....but that is them pigeonholing me....its maybe how they see me…..even if unintentional and i suspect it is such. I don’t walk down the road thinking gay man coming your way!!!! (although I do admittedly walk down that road thinking black man coming your way…..maybe I could change that a little …..baby steps. This conversation and thread has little in my mind to do with sexuality.

…..except in the larger context to which you correctly allude. My being gay and my being black (and living stateside) only magnifies my ability to see when a group (whatever group one chooses) is being unfairly stigmatized based solely on their membership in that group. Yorrick and others may not even see it. But the brash generalizations they use to describe Haitians and the Haitian people are illusory and unfair. Bahamas has multi generational Haitian (now Bahamian) people living there. They are more than just those living in shanty towns .....they live in work in all aspects of Bahamian life. And the vast majority of them are hardworking, family oriented, crime free people. You would never know that by reading some of the stuff on this board. Even the recent immigrants living in those shanty towns are for the most part here seeking a better life for their families and themselves.....not criminals or criminals soon to be as some would have you believe.

This is not an argument that immigration is not a problem. It is an argument that we argue fairly.

I personally think being an educated black person has alone granted me the perception to dismiss such unfair mass generalizations when i see them, beinga black male and gay has prolly only added to that perception.

As to Yorrick i respond to him (and only sometimes) in fact because the he is an intelligent and convincing writer, and dangerous when wrong. Some of the more basic writers i believe that people can spot and judge on their own. An intelligent writer like Yorrick requires a sophisticated response. I dont disagree with several of Yorricks positions......but several of them i am in total opposite and as a public board and ongoing discourse i (even against my better judgement at times) respond. Doesnt mean I am right and he is wrong. Or the other way around. But i definitely disagree with him on some things and i want it to be known that there is a difference of opinion. (even tho i think i'm right.....:shhh: ...i know that i could be wrong just as easily).

And I certainly disagree with the methods he has used to frame the immigration problem.

:jawdroop: Hold up,wait a minute. A1000 sauce is a homo?

Man, I was ignoring this old post...but i now see all the jokes are within this thread!

Why aren’t any of us asking: why do many Haitian people come here in the first place. What is wrong in their own country that makes them so desperate to leave?

We know what is wrong with their country already. They allowed corruption and a few misguided leaders to run that country into the ground! And now that they see that it is an easier road to ride on someone else's coattails, they inadvertently are burdening our country's systems. The problem is that the more of them we let in, naively harping about their "humanitarian rights" (like you are doing), the more they will use and abuse our systems, without regard to the effects that their relatively unhindered immigration will bring upon this country. This is the primary problem of your argument. You generalize and attempt to demonize the view that Bahamians need to stand up and stop this situation, instead of looking at the fact that all that you are doing is arguing the "human rights" situation of the citizens of a foreign country to OUR detriment.



What can we do as an enlightened sophisticated regional country of significant power and controlled by Bahamian people. Build a wall, close our borders, mass deportation and a (black) cold shoulder to the Haitian people? To those other human beings?

That is an excellent suggestion when you look at the fact that NO ONE is supposed to enter this country without permission of the Bahamian government. Do you even realize what you are implying? You are implying that it is okay for them to override our Bahamian border laws simply because their country is suffering and that properly protecting our border will be turning a "cold shoulder" to them. It almost seems, according to your opinion, that we should continue to allow them to "float" on in as they wish. Forget the law! We dont' want to turn a "cold shoulder" to persons who, if they really had any respect for this country, could apply for a permit legally and while outside of our borders.

Here's a question for you: Does the end justify the means? Does the chance for a better life justify the fact that a person breaks the law of a sovereign country? I thought that the law is the law, regardless of personal situation. Imagine a society that allows its residents to break the law as long as they have a good personal reason. Chaos would ensue, no doubt. That same type of mentality is what sped Haiti's deterioration - Corruption and the greed of those who did not wish to abide by or uphold the law.

In the same way that you do not invite every poor Black American into your house to stay and get fed because you know that you cannot afford it is the same way that Bahamians must begin to turn away from this obvious trend that we have started. We originally invited a few Haitians. They in turn told others of the benefits here. And now we are in jeopardy of not being able to stop the flow because many of them have been here so long that they now claim this “house” as their own. Look to the future and stop supporting the deterioration of this Bahamian society, which is being caused by a situation that is beginning to put more of a strain on this country than anything that we Bahamians could do by ourselves! You claim that we as Bahamians have our own problems and that we alone are in control of fixing them, but when it comes to Haitian immigrants you turn things around and claim that we need to fix their problems too! That’s twisted logic if I ever saw it.



Bahamas cannot solve the world’s problem!!! ….we face too many of our own local ones (that predate the Haitian problems….thats right….predate). I completely understand that. I’m not advocating for no change. I just think we would be creating all new problems if we all jumped on the I HATE HAITIANS THEY CAUSE ALL OUR PROBLEM bandwagon. That is not the answer. Do you really think thats true? Do you really think we would suddenly live in a fully employed, drug free, crime free, violence free, properly educated, scandal free country if all the Haitians were gone?
What am I saying is reject fear, bias and ignorance? The answer to this problem cant be to build a wall around our Islands and pretend the Haitian problems don’t exit. Do you really think that would work. Bahamas and Bahamian people are capable of doing more. And if not more….at least doing it with understanding and ethically. And even if not that….at least rejecting hysteria and unfair generalizations. I would hate to be a young hard working Haitian student in COB and read this board and think everyone thought like that.

How many times does it have to be said that no one here is advocating that Bahamians need to hate Haitians?

All that anyone in this forum is talking about is how Bahamians need to watch out that we do not allow a foreign presence to multiply and add to our problems. A foreign presence, I might add, that comes from a troubled country and one that we definitely cannot afford to continue allowing into our country without proper permission. Every man needs to take responsibility for his own problems IN HIS OWN COUNTRY and stop jumping ship as if hardship is an excuse to break the laws of another country. OVERPOPULATION by an immigrant population will be a BAHAMIAN problem in the next 25-50 years. So here we are talking about it, but you are just being stubborn by not understanding clear and concise words which declare that we need to get this situation under control. Many Bahamians like you will not get it until we have our first riot. Oh I forgot, that happened already in Nassau Village. By the way, this is a reality even for Haitian students in COB. They need to be just as aware of how their situation affects us all. We need not mince our words describing these scenarios because as far as Caribbean countries go, once our nations stumble, they never recover. If immigrants keep on coming and our country buckles under the weight, everyone will suffer - them and us. The Bahamas' resources are limited and do not automatically expand with the population, nor were they designed to take on such a rapidly expanding population. More people + limited resources = less opportunities. That should be clear enough for anyone, especially a college student.

You argue the rights of ILLEGAL immigrants in OUR country at the sacrifice of OUR own rights and to add to that, you are not even living here in The Bahamas to feel the effects. You really have your priorities messed up. The Bahamas cannot help millions of Haitians any more than we can help our 350,000+ people, but you obviously seem to think so. Even worse is your repetitive attempt to call factual arguments hateful ones.

One thing that needs to be said is that Bahamians of Haitian descent are definitely keeping their mouths shut. Why? Simply because many of them know that their mother, father or both of their parents would not have been here without making that "illegal" trip. Where is their loyalty to this country? So far we have not had one single Bahamian of Haitian descent or Haitian immigrant stand up for Bahamian people’s rights and publicly and consistently tell Haitians that they need to stop coming here ILLEGALLY - NOT ONE! Don’t they believe in the laws of this Bahamaland too? Or do the Bahamian laws not apply to the people of their heritage? It is quite a convenient argument to say that it is the Bahamian people who are responsible for protecting our borders, but aren’t some immigrants and their children now Bahamians? Yes they are, but they see things from a jaded perspective - one that allows them to overlook their countrymen’s initial infringement of Bahamian law until that immigrant gets a work permit or visa. Then SOME of these Bahamians of foreign parentage shout out and declare that Bahamians are treating Haitian immigrants badly when we try to sift out the lawbreakers, put them in the detention centre, demolish illegal shanty houses or even tell the TRUTH about what SOME of their countrymen are doing. Note the highlight on SOME, because it seems like anytime a Bahamian says something about SOME Haitians, the argument always is twisted as if the person said something about ALL Haitians – that’s loyalty, but not for Bahamians or the Bahamas, that's for sure.

Get it right - Bahamians are going to get this matter solved and we aren’t going to fall for “humanitarian” arguments that are twisted to suit the needs of others. It is the right of humans to obey the laws, rules and guidelines of any territory they enter. No one has the right to break the law – No one.

We know what is wrong with their country already. They allowed corruption and a few misguided leaders to run that country into the ground! And now that they see that it is an easier road to ride on someone else's coattails, they inadvertently are burdening our country's systems. The problem is that the more of them we let in, naively harping about their "humanitarian rights" (like you are doing), the more they will use and abuse our systems, without regard to the effects that their relatively unhindered immigration will bring upon this country. This is the primary problem of your argument. You generalize and attempt to demonize the view that Bahamians need to stand up and stop this situation, instead of looking at the fact that all that you are doing is arguing the "human rights" situation of the citizens of a foreign country to OUR detriment.




That is an excellent suggestion when you look at the fact that NO ONE is supposed to enter this country without permission of the Bahamian government. Do you even realize what you are implying? You are implying that it is okay for them to override our Bahamian border laws simply because their country is suffering and that properly protecting our border will be turning a "cold shoulder" to them. It almost seems, according to your opinion, that we should continue to allow them to "float" on in as they wish. Forget the law! We dont' want to turn a "cold shoulder" to persons who, if they really had any respect for this country, could apply for a permit legally and while outside of our borders.

Here's a question for you: Does the end justify the means? Does the chance for a better life justify the fact that a person breaks the law of a sovereign country? I thought that the law is the law, regardless of personal situation. Imagine a society that allows its residents to break the law as long as they have a good personal reason. Chaos would ensue, no doubt. That same type of mentality is what sped Haiti's deterioration - Corruption and the greed of those who did not wish to abide by or uphold the law.

In the same way that you do not invite every poor Black American into your house to stay and get fed because you know that you cannot afford it is the same way that Bahamians must begin to turn away from this obvious trend that we have started. We originally invited a few Haitians. They in turn told others of the benefits here. And now we are in jeopardy of not being able to stop the flow because many of them have been here so long that they now claim this “house” as their own. Look to the future and stop supporting the deterioration of this Bahamian society, which is being caused by a situation that is beginning to put more of a strain on this country than anything that we Bahamians could do by ourselves! You claim that we as Bahamians have our own problems and that we alone are in control of fixing them, but when it comes to Haitian immigrants you turn things around and claim that we need to fix their problems too! That’s twisted logic if I ever saw it.



How many times does it have to be said that no one here is advocating that Bahamians need to hate Haitians?

All that anyone in this forum is talking about is how Bahamians need to watch out that we do not allow a foreign presence to multiply and add to our problems. A foreign presence, I might add, that comes from a troubled country and one that we definitely cannot afford to continue allowing into our country without proper permission. Every man needs to take responsibility for his own problems IN HIS OWN COUNTRY and stop jumping ship as if hardship is an excuse to break the laws of another country. OVERPOPULATION by an immigrant population will be a BAHAMIAN problem in the next 25-50 years. So here we are talking about it, but you are just being stubborn by not understanding clear and concise words which declare that we need to get this situation under control. Many Bahamians like you will not get it until we have our first riot. Oh I forgot, that happened already in Nassau Village. By the way, this is a reality even for Haitian students in COB. They need to be just as aware of how their situation affects us all. We need not mince our words describing these scenarios because as far as Caribbean countries go, once our nations stumble, they never recover. If immigrants keep on coming and our country buckles under the weight, everyone will suffer - them and us. The Bahamas' resources are limited and do not automatically expand with the population, nor were they designed to take on such a rapidly expanding population. More people + limited resources = less opportunities. That should be clear enough for anyone, especially a college student.

You argue the rights of ILLEGAL immigrants in OUR country at the sacrifice of OUR own rights and to add to that, you are not even living here in The Bahamas to feel the effects. You really have your priorities messed up. The Bahamas cannot help millions of Haitians any more than we can help our 350,000+ people, but you obviously seem to think so. Even worse is your repetitive attempt to call factual arguments hateful ones.

One thing that needs to be said is that Bahamians of Haitian descent are definitely keeping their mouths shut. Why? Simply because many of them know that their mother, father or both of their parents would not have been here without making that "illegal" trip. Where is their loyalty to this country? So far we have not had one single Bahamian of Haitian descent or Haitian immigrant stand up for Bahamian people’s rights and publicly and consistently tell Haitians that they need to stop coming here ILLEGALLY - NOT ONE! Don’t they believe in the laws of this Bahamaland too? Or do the Bahamian laws not apply to the people of their heritage? It is quite a convenient argument to say that it is the Bahamian people who are responsible for protecting our borders, but aren’t some immigrants and their children now Bahamians? Yes they are, but they see things from a jaded perspective - one that allows them to overlook their countrymen’s initial infringement of Bahamian law until that immigrant gets a work permit or visa. Then SOME of these Bahamians of foreign parentage shout out and declare that Bahamians are treating Haitian immigrants badly when we try to sift out the lawbreakers, put them in the detention centre, demolish illegal shanty houses or even tell the TRUTH about what SOME of their countrymen are doing. Note the highlight on SOME, because it seems like anytime a Bahamian says something about SOME Haitians, the argument always is twisted as if the person said something about ALL Haitians – that’s loyalty, but not for Bahamians or the Bahamas, that's for sure.

Get it right - Bahamians are going to get this matter solved and we aren’t going to fall for “humanitarian” arguments that are twisted to suit the needs of others. It is the right of humans to obey the laws, rules and guidelines of any territory they enter. No one has the right to break the law – No one.


(sigh)

:bahamas:

(on a side note....what is your opinion of (1) George Bush? and (2) his presidency? Just wondering).

yall writing essays up in here now .. arghh ..

And Bush rules ofcourse :p
great prez in my book