tia are you joking? do you have any idea why and how these people arrived at being in france? first of all most of them are LEGAL. they are french citizens. just 'second-class' ones. lets clarify that. second of all, they are there, because this is where their parents and grandparents settled when they left north africa....former FRENCH colonies. these tunisians, morrocans and algerians are like the caribbean, pakistani and indian in britain! of course we/they come to the motherland! where we speak the language and share common elements - not to mention, they have a RIGHT to migrate (or did have back then)! they havent CHOSEN to be in france! god forbid! who would do anything so daft? they couldnt have ended up in any other european country!

listen I understand your frustration but if I was somewhere where I was treated unfairly I would leave. if you say they didnt choose to be in France they sure as hell chose to stay! you left and your still not home! Do you wan to see your Bahamaland like this? I think not, stop trying to save the world!:hammer:

I heard someone on MSNBC say that this trouble in France is only the tip of the iceberg. This is a religious thing - Islamic. It has spread to Belgium and Germany and will keep on spreading. Poverty, discrimination and racism plays a part but its real driving force is radical Islam that is using those things to inflame these riots. What do you think?

My sister is in France right now, they have a house there that they visit twice a year. She says that things are very bad! They don't go out in the evenings and from time to time she can see the glow of fires in the distance. Her neighbors are convinced that Islam plays a big part. The neighbors are only waiting, and hoping, for the Army to come in and start shooting. They feel this is an organized thing, not just the rumblings of the disaffected.

listen I understand your frustration but if I was somewhere where I was treated unfairly I would leave. if you say they didnt choose to be in France they sure as hell chose to stay! you left and your still not home! Do you wan to see your Bahamaland like this? I think not, stop trying to save the world!:hammer:


ok...so you have demonstrated you do not understand this situation, or anything about french/north african history. THESE PEOPLE ARE HOME. THEY ARE FRENCH CITIZENS...the majority of them!!!. and THIS tia, is the issue - they are 2nd class citizens in their OWN DAMN COUNTRY. where the hell should they go?

CG:
while what is happening IS the tip of the iceberg - i would advise you follow a different news station. this conflict has NOTHING to do with religion, but i'm not suprised the americans make out to be that way. it IS the tip of the iceberg simply because all european countries (in particular france, gemany, netherlands, belgium and uk) have large immigrant populations and these people are still, on many levels discriminated against and segregated. no we dont say it, and instead try to show up other countries (like the katrina fiasco), but trust me, if your are not studying in europe, you are exposed to a different calibre of people. i dont think the poverty is the same as the states, but it def. exists. and its sad.

so while the conflict might be multi-dimensional, its not religious. these people are not fighting for religious rights. the problem you see, is many EU countries have become 'multi-ethnic', but NOT 'multi-cultural'. the UK, i think has a slight edge, and to be honest, i think the UK does well to try and integrate cultures. this is NOT the case in france. "LIBERTÉ ÉGALITÉ FRATERNITÉ": this is one of the reasons why france is facing this backlash. 'everyone is equal' -so they say. there should be no distinction based on race, origin, sex, etc - so they say. they do not celebrate the other cultures in the country. french culture is VERY STRONG. now ok, in theory this may be a good thing. but you cannot overlook that another citizen might come from a different culture (if you see what i mean) you cannot, force them to relate to a culture they cant relate too...take england for example. england also has a strong culture, but they embrace other cultures in this country. and celebrate them. this helps people to INTEGRATE...on the flip-side you have multi-culturalism, which creates another problem - but wont go there tonight.

anyway, the bottom line is there is a difference between a white european french person, and a black african french person. or an arab french. different background. culture. when you erase the fact that those difference exist, and try to streamline everyone as having the 'same', 'superior' culture - then voila!

ok...so you have demonstrated you do not understand this situation, or anything about french/north african history. THESE PEOPLE ARE HOME. THEY ARE FRENCH CITIZENS...the majority of them!!!. and THIS tia, is the issue - they are 2nd class citizens in their OWN DAMN COUNTRY. where the hell should they go?
CG:
while what is happening IS the tip of the iceberg - i would advise you follow a different news station. this conflict has NOTHING to do with religion, but i'm not suprised the americans make out to be that way. it IS the tip of the iceberg simply because all european countries (in particular france, gemany, netherlands, belgium and uk) have large immigrant populations and these people are still, on many levels discriminated against and segregated. no we dont say it, and instead try to show up other countries (like the katrina fiasco), but trust me, if your are not studying in europe, you are exposed to a different calibre of people. i dont think the poverty is the same as the states, but it def. exists. and its sad.
so while the conflict might be multi-dimensional, its not religious. these people are not fighting for religious rights. the problem you see, is many EU countries have become 'multi-ethnic', but NOT 'multi-cultural'. the UK, i think has a slight edge, and to be honest, i think the UK does well to try and integrate cultures. this is NOT the case in france. "LIBERTÉ ÉGALITÉ FRATERNITÉ": this is one of the reasons why france is facing this backlash. 'everyone is equal' -so they say. there should be no distinction based on race, origin, sex, etc - so they say. they do not celebrate the other cultures in the country. french culture is VERY STRONG. now ok, in theory this may be a good thing. but you cannot overlook that another citizen might come from a different culture (if you see what i mean) you cannot, force them to relate to a culture they cant relate too...take england for example. england also has a strong culture, but they embrace other cultures in this country. and celebrate them. this helps people to INTEGRATE...on the flip-side you have multi-culturalism, which creates another problem - but wont go there tonight.
anyway, the bottom line is there is a difference between a white european french person, and a black african french person. or an arab french. different background. culture. when you erase the fact that those difference exist, and try to streamline everyone as having the 'same', 'superior' culture - then voila!

i didnt even know that the "dynamics" of race issues in France were to that extreme that they would riot. when I think of france high end couture fashion houses, spirits, the riviera and my favorite afropean group "les nubians" come to mind. I listen and read just like you. My mental makeup simply does not come from that devil box called a tv. I make informed judgements also. To outright label me close minded about french or north african affairs is unfair and totally off base. But what we in the Bahamas can learn from this is that this si a reality we have to deal with if we dont do something about our illegal immigration issues now. no matter what you say those people still chose to stay. home is where the heart is and if they aint getting no love in france...

It would be interesting to know if your parents are of illegal immigrant stock in the Bahamas?Because if you are I can see why you identify with these people so.

i didnt even know that the "dynamics" of race issues in France were to that extreme that they would riot. when I think of france high end couture fashion houses, spirits, the riviera and my favorite afropean group "les nubians" come to mind. I listen and read just like you. My mental makeup simply does not come from that devil box called a tv. I make informed judgements also. To outright label me close minded about french or north african affairs is unfair and totally off base. But what we in the Bahamas can learn from this is that this si a reality we have to deal with if we dont do something about our illegal immigration issues now. no matter what you say those people still chose to stay. home is where the heart is and if they aint getting no love in france...
It would be interesting to know if your parents are of illegal immigrant stock in the Bahamas?Because if you are I can see why you identify with these people so.


oh trust me - noone on this side of the pond is suprised about the riots - just the fact it took so long to happen! i apologise if you took my statements in the wrong way. i didnt mean (at all) that you are close-minded! had i not experienced the situation in france first-hand and had i not been close friends with many north africans (because the white french werent interested) - i might have the same view of france as you: fashion, culture, etc. i did, for the first time in my life, experience culture shock!

you are right, we in the bahamas should look at this situation and pick up anything positive that we can. however there is that one stark difference:the majority of our immigrant population (Haitians) are often ILLEGAL.

I am full Bahamian (to my knowledge) and the only mixing i know about was with my grandma (african origin) and grandpa (english)...so...however, as you would have no doubt noticed, im quite interested in civil liberties & human rights. i think one of the best ways to dispell the myths, misconceptions and prejudices we hold (regarding others) - is through a means such as this: discussion.

CG:
while what is happening IS the tip of the iceberg - i would advise you follow a different news station. this conflict has NOTHING to do with religion, but i'm not suprised the americans make out to be that way. it IS the tip of the iceberg simply because all european countries (in particular france, gemany, netherlands, belgium and uk) have large immigrant populations and these people are still, on many levels discriminated against and segregated. no we dont say it, and instead try to show up other countries (like the katrina fiasco), but trust me, if your are not studying in europe, you are exposed to a different calibre of people. i dont think the poverty is the same as the states, but it def. exists. and its sad.
so while the conflict might be multi-dimensional, its not religious. these people are not fighting for religious rights. the problem you see, is many EU countries have become 'multi-ethnic', but NOT 'multi-cultural'. the UK, i think has a slight edge, and to be honest, i think the UK does well to try and integrate cultures. this is NOT the case in france. "LIBERTÉ ÉGALITÉ FRATERNITÉ": this is one of the reasons why france is facing this backlash. 'everyone is equal' -so they say. there should be no distinction based on race, origin, sex, etc - so they say. they do not celebrate the other cultures in the country. french culture is VERY STRONG. now ok, in theory this may be a good thing. but you cannot overlook that another citizen might come from a different culture (if you see what i mean) you cannot, force them to relate to a culture they cant relate too...take england for example. england also has a strong culture, but they embrace other cultures in this country. and celebrate them. this helps people to INTEGRATE...on the flip-side you have multi-culturalism, which creates another problem - but wont go there tonight.
anyway, the bottom line is there is a difference between a white european french person, and a black african french person. or an arab french. different background. culture. when you erase the fact that those difference exist, and try to streamline everyone as having the 'same', 'superior' culture - then voila!

OK, understood. I was just putting forward another perspective. The News Commentator was not saying that all the things you mention do not happen, he was saying that fundamental Islam is using it. However, we will see. If I was a fundamentalist, I would use the situation.

As for finding another station. I watch all of them, as well as Internet radio from many countries. MSNBC was not the first to put forward that hypnosis.

You said, "french culture is VERY STRONG. now ok, in theory this may be a good thing. but you cannot overlook that another citizen might come from a different culture (if you see what i mean) you cannot, force them to relate to a culture they cant relate too..."
But you want the French to relate to a culture that they can't (most likely) relate to i.e. the immigrants. It would seem to me that when one takes up residence in another country the burden is on the immigrant to adapt to the host country - as much as that is possible - not the other way around!

oh trust me - noone on this side of the pond is suprised about the riots - just the fact it took so long to happen! i apologise if you took my statements in the wrong way. i didnt mean (at all) that you are close-minded! had i not experienced the situation in france first-hand and had i not been close friends with many north africans (because the white french werent interested) - i might have the same view of france as you: fashion, culture, etc. i did, for the first time in my life, experience culture shock!
you are right, we in the bahamas should look at this situation and pick up anything positive that we can. however there is that one stark difference:the majority of our immigrant population (Haitians) are often ILLEGAL.
I am full Bahamian (to my knowledge) and the only mixing i know about was with my grandma (african origin) and grandpa (english)...so...however, as you would have no doubt noticed, im quite interested in civil liberties & human rights. i think one of the best ways to dispell the myths, misconceptions and prejudices we hold (regarding others) - is through a means such as this: discussion.


the white french arent most interested in anyone but themselves .. especially not the brits .. :shaky:

and quickly, just to elaborate on what i wrote early about liberté égalité fraternité - i just read this very interesting article which expands on my point. Because everyone in supposedly 'equal' in france, there arent 'french-arabs' or 'french-africans', so to speak. they are all simply...french. the concept - which works in theory, was born after the french revolution and means that there is no distinction based on ethnicity or religion. however, what it means in today terms is that there is no way measure the 'progress' or 'regress' of a particular ethnic group in terms of education, civil service or even employment. therefore, in france:
-any statistics based on ethnicity/religion are illegal
-there are no statistics to prove how many people of arab/african origin there are in france - they are all simply french.
-noone knows how what the percentage of prison inmates are white, arab, african, or other
-noone knows how what the unemployment statistics are amongst the non-white french population.
-none of these minority groups have minority rights

and as my (arab) french used to say: 'we're not french french' but we're not supposed to be arab either! so what the hell are we? va te faire enculer putain! espece de merde!

lawd the cussin, if i said that in anglish id get banned :shaky:

OK, understood. I was just putting forward another perspective. The News Commentator was not saying that all the things you mention do not happen, he was saying that fundamental Islam is using it. However, we will see. If I was a fundamentalist, I would use the situation.
As for finding another station. I watch all of them, as well as Internet radio from many countries. MSNBC was not the first to put forward that hypnosis.
You said, "french culture is VERY STRONG. now ok, in theory this may be a good thing. but you cannot overlook that another citizen might come from a different culture (if you see what i mean) you cannot, force them to relate to a culture they cant relate too..."
But you want the French to relate to a culture that they can't (most likely) relate to i.e. the immigrants. It would seem to me that when one takes up residence in another country the burden is on the immigrant to adapt to the host country - as much as that is possible - not the other way around!

CG that is a very good point. I totally agree - when you reside in a country different to your own, you must try to adapt to the culture. what i dont agree with, however, is those people who say, when you move to a country you should FORGET your former culture and assimilate. i think this is not necessary...and you would be suprised how often people say it. i think the brits have it right on this one. really. they conquered and colonised 1/3 of the planet. their immigration issues stem from having all these former colonies. yet they dont go around forcing everyone to become more british, forcing them to forget where they come from! the cultural mixture in this country is one of the better things about it! yes, it may not be perfect- but you get the point.

the french on the other hand...i DEF. dont expect them to be open with accepting other cultures! i know them. this is SIMPLY not possible. c'est pas possible as those *bastards* would say, as if they are all freaking programmed! im not saying the french MUST integrate other cultures into theirs and 'water down' french culture...but well, if not, this is the result. remember, france would not have had this massive immigrant population if it have not (illegally) invaded north africa and colonised it. you reap what you sow. now the issue, is how they now deal with the effects of that colonisation, and for that, i say they take a chapter from the british book!

CG that is a very good point. I totally agree - when you reside in a country different to your own, you must try to adapt to the culture. what i dont agree with, however, is those people who say, when you move to a country you should FORGET your former culture and assimilate. i think this is not necessary...and you would be suprised how often people say it.
I agree to a point. I think the burden is still on the immigrant to assimilate. It is in his best interest but it is also in the interest of the host country to be open to the immigrant's ideas and customs and to try to assimilate some of that. But perhaps that is just me. I get "blissed out" :dancer2: when I know I am going to meet someone from another culture - so much to learn, so many wonders to explore. I fear the French do not share that sentiment. From my experience neither do the Arabs! A volatile mixture French and Arab!

remember, france would not have had this massive immigrant population if it have not (illegally) invaded north africa and colonised it.

But let me ask you a question. If these people were so happy to get independence why did they flee to their former "oppressors" shores? Why not stay at home and make their country work? Could it be that independence was not all it was cracked up to be?

But let me ask you a question. If these people were so happy to get independence why did they flee to their former "oppressors" shores? Why not stay at home and make their country work? Could it be that independence was not all it was cracked up to be?


like the bahamians fleeing to the UK :shaky:

I agree to a point. I think the burden is still on the immigrant to assimilate. It is in his best interest but it is also in the interest of the host country to be open to the immigrant's ideas and customs and to try to assimilate some of that. But perhaps that is just me. I get "blissed out" :dancer2: when I know I am going to meet someone from another culture - so much to learn, so many wonders to explore. I fear the French do not share that sentiment. From my experience neither do the Arabs! A volatile mixture French and Arab!

well CG, I totally agree with you here...is duty IS on the immigrant to assimilate! and im alot like you. i also love meeting people from new and different backgrounds. imagine how the world would be different if we all had that type of thirst to learn about/from others!

well CG, I totally agree with you here...is duty IS on the immigrant to assimilate! and im alot like you. i also love meeting people from new and different backgrounds. imagine how the world would be different if we all had that type of thirst to learn about/from others!

I think it would be a wonderful world. Perhaps we have too much pride (the wrong kind) in our countries, cultures, race and religions. Or perhaps we are insecure about our identities.