http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/04/france.riots/index.html

The question is do you think that we in the Bahamas can learn anything from this incident & if so what are the most relevant lessons to be taken from this?

What can we learn? Such an easy question.

That politicians and the rest who are selling out this country by "ignoring" the Bahamas' growing illegal immigrant population (for votes, no less) will soon learn what the real price of their treasonous behaviour is - Sell a visa, passport or a work permit for a few dollars now and set yourself up to potentially lose the stability and economic feasibility of your entire country later. Let's just keep on absorbing tens of thousands of persons from a historically unstable nation, shall we? They messed up their country already, let's share ours!

Bahamians are the ones who have the most to lose, but yet we are the ones who are silent. An immigrant who is used to living on pennies a day has nothing to fear if the Bahamian economy goes belly up. We allow political correctness and guilt-inducing logic to blind us to the reality that we are indeed handing our country over to others who have no vested interest in it, except to save and protect their own...

With borders that are wide open like ours, guns by the boatload could be brought to our shores quite easily. With police and defense forces containing members whose loyalties have been compromised, who will defend us while our forces protect themselves from their "own"?

"A clever man learns from his mistakes, a wise man learns from the mistakes of others."

We'll see how wise (or greedy) our leaders really are in the upcoming years. Yes indeed we shall...

Hmmm, we can relate with Immigrant rioting .. wondered if anyone was going to post on this thing ... ofcourse on a larger scale in France ..

what is happeneing in france is terrible. and although i can see how it makes you think about immigration in bahamas but really its not the same. i lived in france. you cannot understand how racist these people are. ok, maybe alot had to do with where i lived (s.west on the german border), so people were v. nationalist. but please listen to me. the immigrant population in france is terribly discriminated against. you would be so suprised! what is happening in paris is a direct result of that repression, and this had truly been simmering for decades! im so angry! i just woke up and read the comments posted on BBC website. 95% of the people have no freakin clue. france is one of my favourite places to visit, but unless you live there YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND. even my boyfriend (who is italian) was appalled with the french! visiting paris is all lovely and good, but you live there for a year, and tell me how great the french are!

what is happeneing in france is terrible. and although i can see how it makes you think about immigration in bahamas but really its not the same. i lived in france. you cannot understand how racist these people are. ok, maybe alot had to do with where i lived (s.west on the german border), so people were v. nationalist. but please listen to me. the immigrant population in france is terribly discriminated against. you would be so suprised! what is happening in paris is a direct result of that repression, and this had truly been simmering for decades! im so angry! i just woke up and read the comments posted on BBC website. 95% of the people have no freakin clue. france is one of my favourite places to visit, but unless you live there YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND. even my boyfriend (who is italian) was appalled with the french! visiting paris is all lovely and good, but you live there for a year, and tell me how great the french are!

Beg your pardon, but I do believe that you are the one who really doesn't understand.

Here in The Bahamas we already have the framework for such an event. The parameters may be a little different, but the result may be exactly the same. Militia-types from Haiti already have made their way here through the drug trade and also because they cannot function as they used to in Haiti. The UN peacekeepers are making it increasingly difficult for them in that country.

With most of our Bahamian drug lords locked up, or in hiding from the DEA, we have no one to "protect" the borders of our criminal underground from foreign "takeovers". It all sounds a bit strange, but our drug lords did serve a purpose.

In the same way that violence kept certain parts of Haiti unstable, this country will soon breed its own "generation" with similar mentalities. Apparently our "social experts" do not see the risk in bringing in foreign persons who are not socialized in the same ways that Bahamians are. Bahamians handle conflict and problems much differently from some of our Caribbean brothers and sisters - we are not used to rioting or extremely violent behaviour. Anyone with a smidgeon of sense could see that bringing someone who grew up in an environment like that of Haiti into one like ours will result in an inevitable clash of cultures - Case in point, the Mudd and Pigeon pea settlements in Abaco.

No one wants to say it, but the real reason why they are not doing anything about those two settlements is that The Bahamas government, nor our citizens, can do anything about it. By default, those settlements will continue to grow and a clash is bound to take place. Watch carefully at the approach being implemented by this government and those responsible for those areas. They are taking extreme measures not to upset those people, despite the breaking of our laws. Plus, at this time we do not have the forces or the manpower to process the large numbers of illegal immigrants living within those illegal communities. (And yes, those ENTIRE communities are ILLEGAL. Not a single house in those areas was built with the permission of the Bahamian government! Talk about simultaneously breaking Bahamian laws and spitting on them, shall we?)

What do you think will happen when they decide to send those who are illegal within the Mudd and Pigeon Pea communities home? With increased numbers comes strength and it will not be a pretty sight. This, my dear Moon Angel, is the reason why they are now beginning the absolutely ridiculous task of "urbanizing" an ILLEGAL community instead of closing things down outright. The Bahamian government knows that the situation will be volatile and are handling it with kid gloves. Though every legal and illegal immigrant is not supposed to be on that land, our leaders know that they cannot simply ask them to move. (Sounds ridiculous doesn't it?) Let me say it again: "Though every legal and illegal immigrant is not supposed to be on that land, our leaders know that they cannot simply ask them to move."IF these immigrants were persons who respected our laws and guidelines and were truly interested in integrating themselves into this Bahamian society, they would have been the first to break up their own illegal communities as a sign of respect and goodwill towards Bahamians.

I have not seen the Haitian ambassador asking for these illegal communities to be broken up, not have I seen any Haitian-Bahamian calling for honest integration into this society. Listen carefully. All you can hear is silence ‘cause they know we can't do anything about it at this time. In addition to this glaring truth, certain persons in power have given Haitians the green light to continue coming into this country illegally. Collusion from the very top levels of government is more than apparent. Haitians have claimed this country as their own and no Bahamian in power at this moment dares to stop them.

Now the rest of you who are in denial can commence your statements of "these are only people looking for a good life".

what is happeneing in france is terrible. and although i can see how it makes you think about immigration in bahamas but really its not the same. i lived in france. you cannot understand how racist these people are. ok, maybe alot had to do with where i lived (s.west on the german border), so people were v. nationalist. but please listen to me. the immigrant population in france is terribly discriminated against. you would be so suprised! what is happening in paris is a direct result of that repression, and this had truly been simmering for decades! im so angry! i just woke up and read the comments posted on BBC website. 95% of the people have no freakin clue. france is one of my favourite places to visit, but unless you live there YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND. even my boyfriend (who is italian) was appalled with the french! visiting paris is all lovely and good, but you live there for a year, and tell me how great the french are!

the thing that gets me is if the people are so bad why stay? go to another country and be illegal in it. all this has done is make it worst not better for those illegal immigrants of France. You think they have supporters now you have another thing coming. It will be the same here, all the illegal mass sympathizers will stop and focus on making the Bahamas better.

Beg your pardon, but I do believe that you are the one who really doesn't understand.
Here in The Bahamas we already have the framework for such an event. The parameters may be a little different, but the result may be exactly the same. Militia-types from Haiti already have made their way here through the drug trade and also because they cannot function as they used to in Haiti. The UN peacekeepers are making it increasingly difficult for them in that country.
With most of our Bahamian drug lords locked up, or in hiding from the DEA, we have no one to "protect" the borders of our criminal underground from foreign "takeovers". It all sounds a bit strange, but our drug lords did serve a purpose.
In the same way that violence kept certain parts of Haiti unstable, this country will soon breed its own "generation" with similar mentalities. Apparently our "social experts" do not see the risk in bringing in foreign persons who are not socialized in the same ways that Bahamians are. Bahamians handle conflict and problems much differently from some of our Caribbean brothers and sisters - we are not used to rioting or extremely violent behaviour. Anyone with a smidgeon of sense could see that bringing someone who grew up in an environment like that of Haiti into one like ours will result in an inevitable clash of cultures - Case in point, the Mudd and Pigeon pea settlements in Abaco.
No one wants to say it, but the real reason why they are not doing anything about those two settlements is that The Bahamas government, nor our citizens, can do anything about it. By default, those settlements will continue to grow and a clash is bound to take place. Watch carefully at the approach being implemented by this government and those responsible for those areas. They are taking extreme measures not to upset those people, despite the breaking of our laws. Plus, at this time we do not have the forces or the manpower to process the large numbers of illegal immigrants living within those illegal communities. (And yes, those ENTIRE communities are ILLEGAL. Not a single house in those areas was built with the permission of the Bahamian government! Talk about simultaneously breaking Bahamian laws and spitting on them, shall we?)
What do you think will happen when they decide to send those who are illegal within the Mudd and Pigeon Pea communities home? With increased numbers comes strength and it will not be a pretty sight. This, my dear Moon Angel, is the reason why they are now beginning the absolutely ridiculous task of "urbanizing" an ILLEGAL community instead of closing things down outright. The Bahamian government knows that the situation will be volatile and are handling it with kid gloves. Though every legal and illegal immigrant is not supposed to be on that land, our leaders know that they cannot simply ask them to move. (Sounds ridiculous doesn't it?) Let me say it again: "Though every legal and illegal immigrant is not supposed to be on that land, our leaders know that they cannot simply ask them to move."IF these immigrants were persons who respected our laws and guidelines and were truly interested in integrating themselves into this Bahamian society, they would have been the first to break up their own illegal communities as a sign of respect and goodwill towards Bahamians.
I have not seen the Haitian ambassador asking for these illegal communities to be broken up, not have I seen any Haitian-Bahamian calling for honest integration into this society. Listen carefully. All you can hear is silence ‘cause they know we can't do anything about it at this time. In addition to this glaring truth, certain persons in power have given Haitians the green light to continue coming into this country illegally. Collusion from the very top levels of government is more than apparent. Haitians have claimed this country as their own and no Bahamian in power at this moment dares to stop them.
Now the rest of you who are in denial can commence your statements of "these are only people looking for a good life".

yoirck sad to say but I agree with you. bahamians never had to go through all the hositily than our Carribbean neighbours endures. We always had a way out. If the bahamian gov't is serious they should consider taking the haitian ambassador down to that area and having him encourage his people to go home. either way it wont be pretty. we might have to bomb the area to send a clear message. What happened to the IOM report I wonder?

the thing that gets me is if the people are so bad why stay? go to another country and be illegal in it. all this has done is make it worst not better for those illegal immigrants of France. You think they have supporters now you have another thing coming. It will be the same here, all the illegal mass sympathizers will stop and focus on making the Bahamas better.

Well, you are probably missing one of the major reasons why they would migrate. When you look at a map of the world based on language, French is considered to be the 9th most popular language. While this may seem like a good thing, it doesn't really help if the bulk of the nations that speak the language are in Africa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Francais-World.png

To them, moving from one country in Africa to another probably doesn't provide enough of an increase in the standard of living to warrant enduring the discrimination they will face in that country. France is one of the most viable options.

Poor France, first their gov screws them doing deals with Sadaam, now this ... when will it stop, I remember in the early 80's when i went to school there for a little while, it was lovely. :p

PS - anyone that burns another persons property should be shott !

the thing that gets me is if the people are so bad why stay? go to another country and be illegal in it. all this has done is make it worst not better for those illegal immigrants of France. You think they have supporters now you have another thing coming. It will be the same here, all the illegal mass sympathizers will stop and focus on making the Bahamas better.

tia are you joking? do you have any idea why and how these people arrived at being in france? first of all most of them are LEGAL. they are french citizens. just 'second-class' ones. lets clarify that. second of all, they are there, because this is where their parents and grandparents settled when they left north africa....former FRENCH colonies. these tunisians, morrocans and algerians are like the caribbean, pakistani and indian in britain! of course we/they come to the motherland! where we speak the language and share common elements - not to mention, they have a RIGHT to migrate (or did have back then)! they havent CHOSEN to be in france! god forbid! who would do anything so daft? they couldnt have ended up in any other european country!

tia are you joking? do you have any idea why and how these people arrived at being in france? first of all most of them are LEGAL. they are french citizens. just 'second-class' ones. lets clarify that. second of all, they are there, because this is where their parents and grandparents settled when they left north africa....former FRENCH colonies. these tunisians, morrocans and algerians are like the caribbean, pakistani and indian in britain! of course we/they come to the motherland! where we speak the language and share common elements - not to mention, they have a RIGHT to migrate (or did have back then)! they havent CHOSEN to be in france! god forbid! who would do anything so daft? they couldnt have ended up in any other european country!
AMA I'm sorry if you misunderstood, but my main focus of the post was about the children feeling misplaced & their reaction to it.And if we as Bahamians see any similarities in our present situation.

AMA I'm sorry if you misunderstood, but my main focus of the post was about the children feeling misplaced & their reaction to it.And if we as Bahamians see any similarities in our present situation.

im sorry mariachal, but i did not misunderstand. in case you didnt realise, you labelled this topic 'riots'. whether or not you wanted this discussion to go in a particular direction is your problem. its the chance you take with such a broad subject. now there are serious riots in france, and my points come under that topic. this MB is a medium to voice your opinion on certain topics - and i have done that.

Beg your pardon, but I do believe that you are the one who really doesn't understand.
you might be right there! i havent lived in bahamas for 7 years, so its not likely that i can understand the issues facing society in the same way you (and others) can! however, it doesnt mean i cannot have strong opinions and it doesnt mean that you are necessarily correct!

Here in The Bahamas we already have the framework for such an event.
I would argue we do not have such a framework that could result in the same level of violence. Yes our immigrant population is repressed, but certainly not in the same way as the immigrant population in France. Institutional racism is rife in that country. Even menial jobs require photos on application forms! go figure! if your surname is African or Arab, you are screwed. At least the immigrants in our country can find jobs! They can (albeit its not easy), receive tertiary level education! The French educational system is fcuking backwards!!! (and i went to university there so I know). Everyone is admitted to university, and a 'process of elimination' determines who will complete a 5 year course! Its a rat race. 80% of first year students fail and are not admitted to 2nd year! By the time you hit year 5, you got it. the entire class is filled with white french faces and your 'token' 1 black and 1 arab! the rest? well, the remain unemployed for a couple of years AT LEAST. the result: unemployement + poverty + no qualifications + discrimination = the riots we are now seeing. I do not think the situation is THAT bad in bahamas. now if you mean from the perspective of Bahamians rioting on that level (because of the presence of immigrants)...well as you said: we deal with things differently. we are not so 'violent' (quite funny, considering the current crime wave)! we resolve our conflicts 'differently'. your views, not mine.

With most of our Bahamian drug lords locked up, or in hiding from the DEA, we have no one to "protect" the borders of our criminal underground from foreign "takeovers". It all sounds a bit strange, but our drug lords did serve a purpose.
LOL! so you think we should free our 'drug lords' to 'protect our borders'? Imagine that! yeah lets allow Ninety to join the RBDF!

Apparently our "social experts" do not see the risk in bringing in foreign persons who are not socialized in the same ways that Bahamians are. Bahamians handle conflict and problems much differently from some of our Caribbean brothers and sisters - we are not used to rioting or extremely violent behaviour.
so are you saying the only foreigners that should be allowed onto our lil group of rocks are the ones who have been 'socialized' like us? well who would that include? rich expats? would that exclude haitians and jamaicans? cause according to us - they are wayyy violent - nope cant have them! should we, prior to granting work permits, citizenship and naturalisation, offer a mandatory 'quiz' (like the UK) to determine who can assimilate into our country/culture to our liking?

(And yes, those ENTIRE communities are ILLEGAL. Not a single house in those areas was built with the permission of the Bahamian government! Talk about simultaneously breaking Bahamian laws and spitting on them, shall we?)
and we come back to this important point. the entire communities are illegal. is that...what...illegal because they are squatting? or illegal cause they have no papers? because there may be LEGAL immigrants living in ILLEGAL circumstances. no different from BAHAMIAN citizens squatting on someone else's land.

This, my dear Moon Angel, is the reason why they are now beginning the absolutely ridiculous task of "urbanizing" an ILLEGAL community instead of closing things down outright.
see above.

In addition to this glaring truth, certain persons in power have given Haitians the green light to continue coming into this country illegally.
im not being facetious...but where do you get this impression?

Haitians have claimed this country as their own and no Bahamian in power at this moment dares to stop them.
how have they done this yorick? as far as the eye can see, these people have no rights! whether this is right or wrong is not my point. my point is, how have they taken over the bahamas?

Now the rest of you who are in denial can commence your statements of "these are only people looking for a good life".
not going there. my one and only contention has always been that our crap immigration laws do not adequately take into account those people who may have a valid claim for asylum - totally different issue. however, you might find (if we DID have real immigration/asylum legislation) that many of these so-called 'illegal immigrants' are in fact bona fide asylum seekers.

sorry, the above was in response to yorick's comments.

you might be right there! i havent lived in bahamas for 7 years, so its not likely that i can understand the issues facing society in the same way you (and others) can! however, it doesnt mean i cannot have strong opinions and it doesnt mean that you are necessarily correct!
For one, knowing the number of people that visit this forum, I wouldn't just pull this information out of thin air. I've done my research extensively. If you do not agree then you do not agree.

I would argue we do not have such a framework that could result in the same level of violence. Yes our immigrant population is repressed, but certainly not in the same way as the immigrant population in France. Institutional racism is rife in that country. Even menial jobs require photos on application forms! go figure! if your surname is African or Arab, you are screwed. At least the immigrants in our country can find jobs! They can (albeit its not easy), receive tertiary level education! The French educational system is fcuking backwards!!! (and i went to university there so I know). Everyone is admitted to university, and a 'process of elimination' determines who will complete a 5 year course! Its a rat race. 80% of first year students fail and are not admitted to 2nd year! By the time you hit year 5, you got it. the entire class is filled with white french faces and your 'token' 1 black and 1 arab! the rest? well, the remain unemployed for a couple of years AT LEAST. the result: unemployement + poverty + no qualifications + discrimination = the riots we are now seeing. I do not think the situation is THAT bad in bahamas. now if you mean from the perspective of Bahamians rioting on that level (because of the presence of immigrants)...well as you said: we deal with things differently. we are not so 'violent' (quite funny, considering the current crime wave)! we resolve our conflicts 'differently'. your views, not mine.

I would believe that you have missed a key element in the equation. I spoke of a militant-type of person who has now made their way from Haiti since they are being attacked and killed in that country by UN forces. If you do not want to believe that their level of violence will never make it to these shores, then fine. Like many Bahamians, you are simply in denial. We are not aware of the existence of such violent behaviour. We have never dealt with it, not can we fathom its causes. Our naivety is much to our detriment.

LOL! so you think we should free our 'drug lords' to 'protect our borders'? Imagine that! yeah lets allow Ninety to join the RBDF!

I'm not saying that Ninety should join the RBDF, but I am saying that the drug trade has taken a drastic shift in this country. Haitians are now some of our primary drug dealers. I wish that I could tell you how I know this, but as you grew up with me, trust me on this one. These same drug boys are the very ones that openly state that they do not like this country and are ready to take the Bahamas away from Bahamians.

Drug dealers often have guns to protect their "stock". Combine that with a bunch of volatile immigrant men, some who have militia experience and we have a deadly combination waiting for some "action".

so are you saying the only foreigners that should be allowed onto our lil group of rocks are the ones who have been 'socialized' like us? well who would that include? rich expats? would that exclude haitians and jamaicans? cause according to us - they are wayyy violent - nope cant have them! should we, prior to granting work permits, citizenship and naturalisation, offer a mandatory 'quiz' (like the UK) to determine who can assimilate into our country/culture to our liking?

YES. The stability of this country is paramount to its future. Bringing in an element that handles hardship and conflict in more violent ways than Bahamians is careless and foolhardy. Giving persons citizenship without demanding absolute loyalty to and respect for this nation is asking for trouble. Bahamians are used to democratic processes and ways of doing things. We have our quirks, but overall we respect that things have to be done a certain way for all of us to remain prosperous. Foreign persons who have not grown up with this socialization and tend to not integrate themselves fully into our societies are sticks of dynamite ready to explode. The proverbial "Haitian village" should have NEVER been allowed to exist in this country. One aspect of legal immigration should be that there are no designated areas for such insular behaviour. It promotes the same type of living and attitudes that have caused Haiti its stability.

and we come back to this important point. the entire communities are illegal. is that...what...illegal because they are squatting? or illegal cause they have no papers? because there may be LEGAL immigrants living in ILLEGAL circumstances. no different from BAHAMIAN citizens squatting on someone else's land.
see above.

I explained this already, but I believe that you have allowed yourself to get emotional regarding this entire issue and therefore logic has taken secondary importance. When I said that the entire community was illegal, I said:

"(And yes, those ENTIRE communities are ILLEGAL. Not a single house in those areas was built with the permission of the Bahamian government! Talk about simultaneously breaking Bahamian laws and spitting on them, shall we?)...

...Though every legal and illegal immigrant is not supposed to be on that land, our leaders know that they cannot simply ask them to move"


Do I need to explain more that I wasn't talking about papers in particular?

im not being facetious...but where do you get this impression?

I get this impression from:
- the ongoing inaction and denial of the problem by those in power.
- the "connections" that some of our Ministers have with immigrant populations
- reports of devious practices in the department of immigration at the very top levels (Bribery when immigrants are caught and the uninhibited sale of passports and permits are common occurrences and are conveniently not covered by our daily newspapers)
- the refusal of our government to get our RBDF in proper condition to eliminate the continuous influx of illegal immigrants
- the sudden "politically correct" change in the language of our leaders from immigrant to migrant even though they know that these persons more accurately fit the definition of immigrant (a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence).
- the lack of public involvement by the Haitian embassy and the ambassador in dealing with this ongoing problem.

how have they done this yorick? as far as the eye can see, these people have no rights! whether this is right or wrong is not my point. my point is, how have they taken over the bahamas?

Again let me remind you to use logic not emotion in your interpretation of my words. I said: "Haitians have claimed this country as their own and no Bahamian in power at this moment dares to stop them."

This is absolute truth. Haitians now know that there is virtually no deterrent to their coming here to The Bahamas and starting a new life. I can get a visa for as many Haitian immigrants as I want without definite cause for why I am employing them. Some persons have sponsored hundreds of applications without having a business which employs them.

Combine the aforementioned with the lax policies and enforcement by our governments and overall this is a serious problem. They have been emboldened by this easily corrupted system and now we have a younger generation whose loyalty is not to the Bahamas, but to that of their parent's homeland.

not going there. my one and only contention has always been that our crap immigration laws do not adequately take into account those people who may have a valid claim for asylum - totally different issue. however, you might find (if we DID have real immigration/asylum legislation) that many of these so-called 'illegal immigrants' are in fact bona fide asylum seekers.

I would hope that you realize that this country has already exceeded its limit of "asylum seekers". The Bahamas is now at risk of its culture being swallowed whole by an immigrant population. You really need to come home and see for yourself. It's easy to think Bahamians are being unfair in voicing our concerns, but everything that I said is based on fact.

What is making it difficult is that many who do voice these opinions are now being drowned out by politicians who are only looking for more votes (or money, depending on how corrupt their underlings are) and by the new breed of Bahamian of Haitian descent, some of whom have an inbred contempt for this society. Who do you think that they will protect in the entire scheme of things? Do you believe that they will want their parents or family members to be deported back to that hellhole of a country? Of course not.

It's a very dangerous social situation and it is one that will be the ruin of this nation. We do not need any more negative press releases coming from our main source of money, the US, but I am sure that their experts see the volatility within this nation continuing to rise. I guess that our politicians fail to see what the US immigration department has foreseen. There is a very good reason why Haitians are immediately sent back to Haiti when they are caught entering US shores, instead of being granted asylum. The Bahamas, if it continues along this current route, will find out soon enough.