Mikki
thats nonsense! if we dont explain abnormalities then how will we know what causes it? why is there not a need for an explanation? and also, how will we qualify what is 'abnormal' or what isnt?

Because you know what is normal, what is expected. This agenda is suggesting that there is no normal.


huh? i think i know what you mean..but can you clarify? i think im having a dyslexic day - really i am! and its scary! :angel:

Well, the charge homo-champions is that homophobes - which is classified by anyone who disagrees with these charlatans, sounds like George Bush calling people who don't agree with the war in Iraq 'unpatriotic - anyway, the charge is that people who don't agree are the ones who have something to hide by saying that gender/sexuality is nurtured. Well, they work under the assumption that people believe only *HOMOSEXUAL* identity is nurtured. Actually, all identity is nurtured. Homosexuality is just one of such identities which for some reason people are trying to defy reality and prove that homosexuality is natural. I suppose its because they fear that social engineering can wipe out homosexuality. It can. Just as it wiped out cannibalism, heterosexuality, pantheism, and a host of other behaviors in various cultures that people think are or were natural. So its homosexuals who fear the truth.


That's not the job of a biologists to study behavior. Its the job of psychologist, behaviorist, and cultural anthropology. Where biology comes in I don't know.
surely that logic only applies if you accept the premise that homosexuality is 'learned behaviour'. right?


No. Its accepting the premise that sexuality is behavioral. No animal is purely heterosexual or homosexual. Animals are either sexual or asexual. Just as some animals are born with the ability to speak while others are not. How ridiculous do you think it is to assume that people are born speaking english?? Very ridiculous. Because english is just one of the way human communication can be expressed. Just as homosexuality is one of the ways human sexuality can be expressed. Heterosexuality is another. Bi-sexuality, yet another and so on. None are in-born.

To say otherwise is deception in its most pathetic form.

Even if we did consider what biologists say, lets consider legitimate experiments rather than experiments gone bad. Some idiot doctor made a stupid mistake and his experiment backfired and people claim that that is proof. How dumb is that?? The Human Genome project has established time and time again that not only is there no homosexual gene, there is no heterosexual gene either. We are all as likely to be either. But just as english prevails. Heterosexuality prevails. The problem is, there is *PROPER* english. So we can also say that there is proper and improper expressions of sexuality.

*THAT* is what these liars are afraid of and that is what disgusts 'homophobes' like me.

Because you know what is normal, what is expected. This agenda is suggesting that there is no normal.
Well, the charge homo-champions is that homophobes - which is classified by anyone who disagrees with these charlatans, sounds like George Bush calling people who don't agree with the war in Iraq 'unpatriotic - anyway, the charge is that people who don't agree are the ones who have something to hide by saying that gender/sexuality is nurtured. Well, they work under the assumption that people believe only *HOMOSEXUAL* identity is nurtured. Actually, all identity is nurtured. Homosexuality is just one of such identities which for some reason people are trying to defy reality and prove that homosexuality is natural. I suppose its because they fear that social engineering can wipe out homosexuality. It can. Just as it wiped out cannibalism, heterosexuality, pantheism, and a host of other behaviors in various cultures that people think are or were natural. So its homosexuals who fear the truth.

No. Its accepting the premise that sexuality is behavioral. No animal is purely heterosexual or homosexual. Animals are either sexual or asexual. Just as some animals are born with the ability to speak while others are not. How ridiculous do you think it is to assume that people are born speaking english?? Very ridiculous. Because english is just one of the way human communication can be expressed. Just as homosexuality is one of the ways human sexuality can be expressed. Heterosexuality is another. Bi-sexuality, yet another and so on. None are in-born.
To say otherwise is deception in its most pathetic form.
Even if we did consider what biologists say, lets consider legitimate experiments rather than experiments gone bad. Some idiot doctor made a stupid mistake and his experiment backfired and people claim that that is proof. How dumb is that?? The Human Genome project has established time and time again that not only is there no homosexual gene, there is no heterosexual gene either. We are all as likely to be either. But just as english prevails. Heterosexuality prevails. The problem is, there is *PROPER* english. So we can also say that there is proper and improper expressions of sexuality.
*THAT* is what these liars are afraid of and that is what disgusts 'homophobes' like me.

lol! thanks for the clarification....as for the last bit, that was what i meant...i highlighted the wrong part- told you i was having a dyslexic day!

Im serious man! Why are these homos so adamant about trying to prove that their lifestyle is so normal?! When two people/animals of the same sex are attracted to each other, IT IS NOT NORMAL! I don't care how many documentaries say otherwise. This is so cool you know more than all the Drs. and medical reaserch teams that say othger wise. Is it Dr or prof will?
And why do they have to push their homo "agenda"? End disrimanation Duh. I don't go around saying, "Hi I'm Will, and I'm a heterosexual." So why do they feel the need to announce to the world that they are homos? KEEP THAT CRAP TO YOURSELVES! No One needs to know!:shhh:

Really have you ever held you girlfriends/wifes hand in public??? Did you ever give her a kiss or send her flowers????

The Human Genome project has established time and time again that not only is there no homosexual gene, there is no heterosexual gene either. We are all as likely to be either. But just as english prevails. Heterosexuality prevails. The problem is, there is *PROPER* english. So we can also say that there is proper and improper expressions of sexuality.
*THAT* is what these liars are afraid of and that is what disgusts 'homophobes' like me.

Knock knock any one there. Its not only genes that determine how the fetus develops. There are hormones and food and chemicals.
There is no gene for left handed people either.

Oh and when did you learn how to be heterosexual??? What were you before you learned how to be heterosexual???

What were you before you learned how to be heterosexual???


I was a child.

That's quite an ignorant question.

Humans don't develop self-consciousness until around the age of 2-3 years old. The time when they experience terrible twos. That's when they learn their *FIRST* identity. So how you are born identifying yourself as heterosexual or homosexual is quite a feat. No human has been able to achieve this. Well, apparently Vicky has. That ought to make you God. In fact, all homosexuals born with their identity intact are equivalent to God. Because for the rest of us it doesn't happen until age 2 or 3.

People are too literal when they hear the term nurture. They believe that there's some nurturing class that people attend where they learn to be themselves.

No idiots. Nurturing comes from your surroundings and your interaction with your surroundings. That's how children learn to be themselves. For example, here's what a real scientific experiment looks like:

Take a 5 liter glass and fill it with water. Then take a 10 liter glass and fill it with the water from the 5 liter glass. Then ask a child under the age of 3 -- who typically hasn't begun the process of con-op -- which glass has the most water. Guess which one the child will pick *EVERYTIME* this experiment has been done. Even when shown that both the 10 liter glass and the 5 liter glass hold the same amount of water.

That's nurture. The experiment is intentional, but children see things like this in real life that forces them to develop intellectually without adult interference. Even something as simple as rain. Or sun shining. Or shadows, they all influence a child's mind into development. Just watch a child try to touch his or her shadow. There are millions of processes occurring that haven't before that helps the child understand "Me" vs "Not-Me".

But back to the 'experiment'...

The reason why children get the answer wrong is because at that age they can't understand concepts. Concepts require the ability to integrate several ideas into one. The ability to conceptualize and integrate concepts is what leads a child to recognize the difference between "ME" and "YOU". They recognize the words but they don't understand what they mean. And if they can't understand the basic concept of "self" -- how do they understand and identify with something as complexed as "sex". Fact is, they can't. They don't.

But nobody can remember a time when they wasn't themselves. Its kinda like imagining life after death. You can't. You just imagine who you are now in the afterlife which isn't the same thing. So we're all inclined to believe that we were always who we are and we always knew it. But...the truth is...we weren't.

There is no gene for left handed people either.

Already been discussed. Its like going around in circles with you. You keep sticking to outdated so-called science to continue arguments you've lost again and again. Get over it. You aren't special. You're a social deviant like the rest of us. Just more deviant than the rest of us tend to be.

I was a child.
That's quite an ignorant question.
Humans don't develop self-consciousness until around the age of 2-3 years old. The time when they experience terrible twos. That's when they learn their *FIRST* identity. So how you are born identifying yourself as heterosexual or homosexual is quite a feat. No human has been able to achieve this. Well, apparently Vicky has. I knew my gender ID before I knew my sexual oriantation. The 2 are not the same. That ought to make you God. In fact, all homosexuals born with their identity intact are equivalent to God. Because for the rest of us it doesn't happen until age 2 or 3.
People are too literal when they hear the term nurture. They believe that there's some nurturing class that people attend where they learn to be themselves.
No idiots. Nurturing comes from your surroundings and your interaction with your surroundings. That's how children learn to be themselves. For example, here's what a real scientific experiment looks like:
Take a 5 liter glass and fill it with water. Then take a 10 liter glass and fill it with the water from the 5 liter glass. Then ask a child under the age of 3 -- who typically hasn't begun the process of con-op -- which glass has the most water. Guess which one the child will pick *EVERYTIME* this experiment has been done. Even when shown that both the 10 liter glass and the 5 liter glass hold the same amount of water.
That's nurture. The experiment is intentional, but children see things like this in real life that forces them to develop intellectually without adult interference. Even something as simple as rain. Or sun shining. Or shadows, they all influence a child's mind into development. Just watch a child try to touch his or her shadow. There are millions of processes occurring that haven't before that helps the child understand "Me" vs "Not-Me".
But back to the 'experiment'...
The reason why children get the answer wrong is because at that age they can't understand concepts. Concepts require the ability to integrate several ideas into one. The ability to conceptualize and integrate concepts is what leads a child to recognize the difference between "ME" and "YOU". They recognize the words but they don't understand what they mean. And if they can't understand the basic concept of "self" -- how do they understand and identify with something as complexed as "sex". Fact is, they can't. They don't.
But nobody can remember a time when they wasn't themselves. Its kinda like imagining life after death. You can't. You just imagine who you are now in the afterlife which isn't the same thing. So we're all inclined to believe that we were always who we are and we always knew it. But...the truth is...we weren't.

Already been discussed. Its like going around in circles with you. You keep sticking to outdated so-called science to continue arguments you've lost again and again. Get over it. You aren't special. You're a social deviant like the rest of us. Just more deviant than the rest of us tend to be.

The left hand issue has not been answered so I am not going in circles. You can say what you like to avoid the truth but there is no gene for left handed people.
But they do exist.

Just as they removed a boys penis and brought him up a girl he could not be nurtured into being a girl nor homosexual. He was an ampute male attracted to females. All the nurturing in the world could not change it.
This is an anargument you have lost with your out dated beliefs. You probably still think the moon is made of cheese.

I think your logic is made of cheese.

Nurturing can make homosexuals and women.

Example??

Ancient Greece.

Prison.

End of story. The idiot side of the coin, namely Vicky, will claim that these people were in denial their whole life. Too bad.

I think your logic is made of cheese.
Nurturing can make homosexuals and women.
Example??
Ancient Greece.
Prison.
End of story. The idiot side of the coin, namely Vicky, will claim that these people were in denial their whole life. Too bad.

Ancient Greece What are you referring to here? In Ancient Greece homosexuality was a normal part of everyday life.

Prison Been doing some research on this. The suspect cause is domination and no where else to turn for companionship. Some humans are any hole will do.

You are looking at homosexuality as just the sex act. But there is much more to it than that.

Wow. Fantastic explanation.

Seemed so thought out and intelligent.

</sarcasm>



...but anyway, in Ancient Greece you're saying that homosexuality was just a lifestyle -- that none of them were born that way?? How do you know it was any different then than it is now now?? I don't see any sense in this response. Its almost funny if it wasn't so sad. Its quite obvious if homosexuality was so rampant that is was due to the culture nurturing its citizens to accept homosexuality as normal and in most cases the prefered behavior.

I dunno what you are talking about in regards to prison. You're research sounds like you found it in a cracker jack box.

Guess what, the large percentage of men returning from prison remain homosexual for the rest of their lives. How do you explain that??

It seems the prison experience was traumatic enough to cause them to permanently alter their sexual identity and/or orientation -- even when they are in the regular world and they have another hole to turn to.

And since you guys are so quick to point out the experiment where the guy who was raised a girl ended up shooting himself -- not really saying what he shot himself for, he may have been HIV positive and just decided to end it. How about men in prison who suddenly realized that prison has made them homosexual and they can't return to the real world that way so they kill themselves?? Ever watch the movie "Life" when the guy gets his release papers and decides to run over the gun line and get shot rather than be gay. Such trauma is easier to deal with when you are 5 years old than when you are an adult. Which is why these traumatized homosexuals believe that they were *ALWAYS* homosexual because that traumatic experience, like prison is traumatic for older men, has been a part of their identity for so long.

Wow. Fantastic explanation.
Seemed so thought out and intelligent.
</sarcasm>
...but anyway, in Ancient Greece you're saying that homosexuality was just a lifestyle -- that none of them were born that way?? How do you know it was any different then than it is now now?? I don't see any sense in this response. Its almost funny if it wasn't so sad. Its quite obvious if homosexuality was so rampant that is was due to the culture nurturing its citizens to accept homosexuality as normal and in most cases the prefered behavior. You really make me smile. If someone was homosexual it was considered just as normal as heterosexual. Now if homosexuality was so prevalent in Ancient Greece how did the get such huge armies How is it that the population grew and produced humans for armies. After all homosexuals are none breeders accordingto you.
I dunno what you are talking about in regards to prison. You're research sounds like you found it in a cracker jack box.
Guess what, the large percentage of men returning from prison remain homosexual for the rest of their lives.2 words. prove it. How do you explain that??
It seems the prison experience was traumatic enough to cause them to permanently alter their sexual identity and/or orientation -- even when they are in the regular world and they have another hole to turn to.
And since you guys are so quick to point out the experiment where the guy who was raised a girl ended up shooting himself -- not really saying what he shot himself for, he may have been HIV positive and just decided to end it. Uh I guess you did not see the documentry on TLC. In the end David himself said (not word for word don't have time right now to watch it to transcribe it) I said he is proof that id does not work what do I have to do put a gun to my head and shoot myself for you to listen. How about men in prison who suddenly realized that prison has made them homosexual and they can't return to the real world that way so they kill themselves?? Ever watch the movie "Life" when the guy gets his release papers and decides to run over the gun line and get shot rather than be gay. Such trauma is easier to deal with when you are 5 years old than when you are an adult. Which is why these traumatized homosexuals believe that they were *ALWAYS* homosexual because that traumatic experience, like prison is traumatic for older men, has been a part of their identity for so long.

Did he say he was going to walk over the gun line to get shot because he did not want to be gay. Or was he just to stressed out with prison life?? Also a movie is tertainment not a documentary.

You really make me smile. If someone was homosexual it was considered just as normal as heterosexual. Now if homosexuality was so prevalent in Ancient Greece how did the get such huge armies How is it that the population grew and produced humans for armies. After all homosexuals are none breeders accordingto you.

Firstly, I say and have said that nobody is purely homosexual or purely heterosexual. A purely homosexual man couldn't reproduce. But according to you, homosexuals are purely homosexual which makes it impossible for them to procreate.

2 words. prove it.

And?? I can prove everything I say. I doubt it would change your opinion. Your opinion and these 'documentaries' are counter-intuitive at face value and agenda driven.

what do I have to do put a gun to my head and shoot myself for you to listen.

Yes, that would further prove the stupidity.


Did he say he was going to walk over the gun line to get shot because he did not want to be gay. Or was he just to stressed out with prison life?? Also a movie is tertainment not a documentary.

He was set-free. Why would prison life stress you out if you're stress-free?? Documentaries are just as entertaining as movies. And in some cases, even less educating. I bet you can find documentaries that prove George Bush is a great president. Do you believe those too??

Until you cite documented facts based on recent science (2 to 3 years ago), your opinion is less convincing than mine. Just as a reminder, homosexuality in men has never been scientifically tested. What has been tested is femininity. It obvious because hardly any of these so-called studies involve lesbian women. Which operate as the control for the experiment. Right?? If homosexuality is genetic, then lesbianism is genetic.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/0022-4537.00169

Obviously, lesbianism is not genetic.

Firstly, I say and have said that nobody is purely homosexual or purely heterosexual. A purely homosexual man couldn't reproduce. But according to you, homosexuals are purely homosexual which makes it impossible for them to procreate.
And?? I can prove everything I say. Then do it I would like to see a report that states majority of men coming out of prison are homosexual and stay that way. I doubt it would change your opinion. Your opinion and these 'documentaries' are counter-intuitive at face value and agenda driven. These documentaries report the infromation that is already there. Much of this information I have already posted here. I bet you would have a problem with a documentary saying the earth is round

And since you guys are so quick to point out the experiment where the guy who was raised a girl ended up shooting himself -- not really saying what he shot himself for, he may have been HIV positive and just decided to end it.


Uh I guess you did not see the documentry on TLC. In the end David himself said (not word for word don't have time right now to watch it to transcribe it) He said he is proof that it (changing some ones gender ID and sexual orintation) does not work what do I have to do put a gun to my head and shoot myself for you to listen. Not long after that he shot him self. So now why did David shoot himself???
Yes, that would further prove the stupidity.
He was set-free. Why would prison life stress you out if you're stress-free?? Documentaries are just as entertaining as movies. And in some cases, even less educating. I bet you can find documentaries that prove George Bush is a great president. Do you believe those too??
Until you cite documented facts based on recent science (2 to 3 years ago), your opinion is less convincing than mine. Just as a reminder, homosexuality in men has never been scientifically tested. What has been tested is femininity.[/QUOTE] And the moon is made of cheese It obvious because hardly any of these so-called studies involve lesbian women. Which operate as the control for the experiment. Right?? If homosexuality is genetic, then lesbianism is genetic. AS I HAVE SAID IT IS NOT GENITIC BUT IT IS FROM THE WHOM. JUST AS LEFT HANDED IS NOT GENITIC BUT FROM THE WOMB AS WELL. I think you talk to hear your self
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/0022-4537.00169
Obviously, lesbianism is not genetic.

I don't talk to hear myself, I talk because it means you'll do less of it.

If it is from the womb then it is not natural or nature. The womb is an environment because a fetus can survive outside that environment and in another incubatory environment. Nurture is who the environment affects the individual.

"The sum of environmental influences and conditions acting on an organism."

-- www.dictionary.com