If I let God be true and every man a liar then tell me, which pastor should I listen to when attending a church service?
Read Romans 3:4
It says "let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

I quoted that verse because Vicky asked me who’s version of right is right.

The truth is that only Jesus is right and we are all made righteous through Him. Therefore there is only One that is right.

You replied to my quote of the Bible as a natural man would and I can understand that because I know that it is impossible for a natural man to see the secrets of the Word of God unless the Spirit reveals it to him. I was once a natural man but Jesus chose me out of the natural into His Spiritual Kingdom.

I hope that God will reveal all of the secrets of His word to you in time Truthseeker.

Like all things that God created for mans’ enjoyment and benefit; Satan distorts for his own purpose. From sex to drugs to music and yes, even gambling has been counterfeited by Satan. These situations may seem complicated but they are quite simple to understand and resolve from a biblical approach.

Biblically, Satan is not credited with innovating casting lots, gambling, taking chances or probability, please consider that first.

Are you sure you are able to judge objectively what is gain or loss for others? I ask because what is sacrifice and/or loss to me could very well be for my own or another's benefit.

The Excuse:
We use the excuse that people are entitled to make their own decisions about what they should do with their money. This is true! We should have this freedom but like I tell everyone “freedom comes with restrictions”. Who in here would agree that is right for a man who has a family to put his family’s welfare at risk because he believes that he has the right number today (so his dream says)? Yet this happens everyday in this country.

It seems you have already taken the liberty of lumping the responsible with the irresponsible chance-takers, and wish to rule out ALL gambling if it may mean the potential loss of others...that sounds alot like just restriction on everybody else, leaving only yourself with the freedom of judgement.
And yes, I would agree that in some cases it is right for a man/woman to put his/her family's welfare at risk for what he/she feels is correct. Whether information gathered from dreams or not.

Let's look at some examples:

Reconsider. 1 Kings 17:7-16
That saying, you would've screwed Elijah.

Matthew 14:7
That saying, you would've told THE ONE Himself to, "Roll out and find someone else to beg off for lunch because the Scriptures say gambling is wrong."

Again: if you are judging and deciding "what's in my best interest" in terms of what you consider gain/loss for me, what freedom do I have?
I agree, there's a limit and a responsibility in having rights- but who's responsible for deciding those limits?
For example, for all intents and purposes (since you've drawn sex, drugs and music as extra examples) let's say Vicki is a responsible drinker, yet Vicki can drink two cases of Mike's Hard Lemonade and still not feel a thing. Whereas, myself, (never having drank before) can only drink two bottles before LOSING my dignity on a sidewalk. You're prepared to deprive Vicki of his drinking rights because our levels of moderation (limits) are different?
Furthermore, drinking is now officially evil to you, because I was unawares of my personal limitations in terms of alcohol intake? Now, let's say in GAINING new knowledge about myself and how far to take my drinking- I want to continue drinking. Responsibly. In spite of this decision, you're still willing to obviate my right to a personal lifestyle different from yours?? ROTFLMAO!


A person gambling his life savings here or on the other side of the world will hurt us all in some way.

It remains their life savings to do with as they wish. It remains none of my business and none of yours.
And I'll tell you Delroy, though it may offer gainsay as to Whom I serve - If you were to present yourself in my face to tell me that, 'what I might do with my life savings may hurt you'...I would smack you right the face.
For in the same manner The LORD removed the trespassers out of His temple (His property) I would would remove you out of my financial affairs (my property).

Don’t be deceived people.
Know the whole truth.
The devil will never show you what goes on behind the scenes only Jesus can do that.

You mean like he did with the Talent Parable? "Oh, Master...gambling is wrong, I might've lost the one talent you gave me...so I put it in a safe place and..." Tsk. Tsk. Delroy...can we say, "Forgetful Jones?"

We don’t need casinos and we don’t need to gamble when God has promised to bless us when we do what is right. We will prosper more as a country if we do what is right and seek the Truth.

Agreed, but again, what is right for you, may not necessarily be right for me. Adam's was brought to him, Hosea was told to go find a slut. Same GOD. Different men. Different circumstances. Which one of them was wrong???

Reconsider.

Parietal,

Please read carefully:


Biblically, Satan is not credited with innovating casting lots, gambling, taking chances or probability, please consider that first.
I never said he was. If you read my post carefully you would see that I credited satan with being guilty of counterfeiting Gods' work. The Bible shows that very clearly from Genesis to Revelations. Anyone who reads the Bible I am sure will see this on the front page but I guess you want me to find every verse for you.


Are you sure you are able to judge objectively what is gain or loss for others? I ask because what is sacrifice and/or loss to me could very well be for my own or another's benefit.
So that makes it right then? If a family was to end up homeless and another family buys that home is there anything right with that?
I am not the one judging here. Whatever decisions you make whether right or wrong will be judged by God. I only speak His words.

It seems you have already taken the liberty of lumping the responsible with the irresponsible chance-takers, and wish to rule out ALL gambling if it may mean the potential loss of others...that sounds alot like just restriction on everybody else, leaving only yourself with the freedom of judgement.
It seems you have already taken the liberty of lumping the responsible with the irresponsible chance-takers, and wish to rule out ALL gambling if it may mean the potential loss of others...that sounds alot like just restriction on everybody else, leaving only yourself with the freedom of judgement.
Why do you twist my words like that? I don't gamble and if another wants to let him do so . I can only bring my beliefs to the table and who doesn't want to accept it I cannot force them to do so. And I wont try.

And yes, I would agree that in some cases it is right for a man/woman to put his/her family's welfare at risk for what he/she feels is correct. Whether information gathered from dreams or not.
The question is: Would you do it?

Reconsider. 1 Kings 17:7-16
That saying, you would've screwed Elijah.
That chapter of the Bible had noting to do with gambling.
When Zarephath did what Elijah asked she was acting on her faith in God.
She was not Gambling. In-fact she was the only one Elijah was sent to which clearly shows divine selection by God.
Read Luke 4:24-26
Jesus said: "Truly I say to you, no prophet is welcome in his hometown. 25 "But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; 26 and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.
God knew the choice she would make before she made it but this event had to be written for our benefit.
Matthew 14:7
That saying, you would've told THE ONE Himself to, "Roll out and find someone else to beg off for lunch because the Scriptures say gambling is wrong."
You mean Matthew 14:17.
And again it was faith and not gambling.
Jesus was only acting on the faith of the 5000 people who were with Him.
It was because of their faith in Jesus that the miracle took place. They were not gambling.
They saw what Jesus had done for them before by healing their sick and other miracles so they were not taking a gamble by obeying Him.


Again: if you are judging and deciding "what's in my best interest" in terms of what you consider gain/loss for me, what freedom do I have?
I agree, there's a limit and a responsibility in having rights- but who's responsible for deciding those limits?
For example, for all intents and purposes (since you've drawn sex, drugs and music as extra examples) let's say Vicki is a responsible drinker, yet Vicki can drink two cases of Mike's Hard Lemonade and still not feel a thing. Whereas, myself, (never having drank before) can only drink two bottles before LOSING my dignity on a sidewalk. You're prepared to deprive Vicki of his drinking rights because our levels of moderation (limits) are different?
Furthermore, drinking is now officially evil to you, because I was unawares of my personal limitations in terms of alcohol intake? Now, let's say in GAINING new knowledge about myself and how far to take my drinking- I want to continue drinking. Responsibly. In spite of this decision, you're still willing to obviate my right to a personal lifestyle different from yours?? ROTFLMAO!
I am not in a position to place limits on anyone.
That is for the Government and the Law to decide. They decide how much alcohol you can consume and who can drink. They decide who can Gamble and who cannot. If you are unaware of your personal limitations but yet still do something that could potentially hurt someone then thats your fault. If your not sure that you can drive but still get behind the wheel of a car and in doing so; cause an accident who's fault is that?

And I'll tell you Delroy, though it may offer gainsay as to Whom I serve - If you were to present yourself in my face to tell me that, 'what I might do with my life savings may hurt you'...I would smack you right the face.
I hope we do meet someday parietal.
For in the same manner The LORD removed the trespassers out of His temple (His property) I would would remove you out of my financial affairs (my property).
You have the right to do whatever you want with your money.
I will make it clear to you right now that the children of God are protected by Him and the only person you can destroy is yourself. But out of the love that I owe you because of Jesus and His sacrifice I am here show the truth with the hope that that doesn't happen to you.

You mean like he did with the Talent Parable? "Oh, Master...gambling is wrong, I might've lost the one talent you gave me...so I put it in a safe place and..." Tsk. Tsk. Delroy...can we say, "Forgetful Jones?"
That was as you said; a Parable! God knows all things.

Agreed, but again, what is right for you, may not necessarily be right for me. Adam's was brought to him, Hosea was told to go find a slut. Same GOD. Different men. Different circumstances. Which one of them was wrong???
None of them was wrong.
A wise person told me a while ago to be careful not to teach the Bible but allow the Bible to teach you.
Hosea's Marriage to a prostitute was an illustration of God's marriage with Israel.
Though Israel was unfaithful to God as Gomer was unfaithful to Hosea, God never turned His back on Israel. Even though they separated for a time they were reconciled again. If everyone would follow this teaching there would be allot less divorces in this country.

Read Romans 3:4
It says "let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

I quoted that verse because Vicky asked me who’s version of right is right.

The truth is that only Jesus is right and we are all made righteous through Him. Therefore there is only One that is right.

You replied to my quote of the Bible as a natural man would and I can understand that because I know that it is impossible for a natural man to see the secrets of the Word of God unless the Spirit reveals it to him. I was once a natural man but Jesus chose me out of the natural into His Spiritual Kingdom.

I hope that God will reveal all of the secrets of His word to you in time Truthseeker.

Delroy the only way I can respond to you is in my natural form. I have never seen an unnatural/spirit man before christian or otherwise. Nothing in the bible is kept secret from me because of my 'spiritual state' as you have claimed. I understand why the bible was written. I understand the purpose behind the words written. The bible is not the word of God but the words of men who tried and are still trying to control the minds of humans for their profit (political and monetry). The bible is not some supernatural book containing instructions from God, because if it were there would not be so much war, killing, rape, murder, incest, infanticide, vulgarities and every imaginable vice sanctioned by this Supreme Being between its pages. I have notice how you take great pride in quoting the flowery/acceptable passages from the bible and skip over the horrific ones. This is very typical of most christians but I understand because the truth hurts sometimes especially if you have been avoiding it.

We need the hotels with their lavish casinos Delroy despite what you believe because without them the church coffers would not be full at Sunday morning offering/tithes; the pastors would not have their luxurious palaces to go home to and their chaffeured Mercedes Benzes to travel in; the parishioners would not have their $1000.00 designers dresses to wear; We would not have those garish architectural monstrosities that past for churches right smack in the middle of our ghettos in which to worship, but most importantly of all, the treasury of the Bahamas would be broke. No money means no imports. No imports means no food. No food means hungry bellies. Hungry bellies mean angry people and frighten politicians. Do you see a development here? Everything in the Bahamas is dependent on that tourist with his pocket full of cash spending it in the Bahamas. Whether he /she spends it for food, shelter of fun/gambling we need him/her to spend money. Now if your god can provide for us a better alternative economic plan which can release us from our present model and make us richer not spiritually but monetarily, then certainly, I along with the rest of the Bahamas and maybe even the world will be all ears. So please, tell us about God's economic plan for the Bahamas seeing that we have been doing such a terrible job of it for several decades now? I would really like to know if your God has a better plan than Capitalism.

It was God who brought us out of slavery and it was God that gave us our independence whether you believe it or not. Show me the horrific parts of the Bible and I will explain everyone for you and show you God's love in the midst of it all.
the treasury of the Bahamas would be broke. No money means no imports. No imports means no food. No food means hungry bellies. Hungry bellies mean angry people and frighten politicians. Do you see a development here?
The treasury is broke now, we have imports but no exports, we do have hungry bellies, angry people and frighten politicians. Read the papers and watch the news. Or better yet, read what the people are saying here on Bahamas Issues.

God's economic plan is simple: "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matthew 6:33

I never said he was. If you read my post carefully you would see that I credited satan with being guilty of counterfeiting Gods' work. The Bible shows that very clearly from Genesis to Revelations. Anyone who reads the Bible I am sure will see this on the front page but I guess you want me to find every verse for you.

And I never said that you said he did. I merely asked that you consider the original paradigm in which gambling, casting lots and probability were based on.


So that makes it right then? If a family was to end up homeless and another family buys that home is there anything right with that?
I am not the one judging here. Whatever decisions you make whether right or wrong will be judged by God. I only speak His words.

Actually, like I said, what is loss for one, may be gain for that same person or gain for others.
There was once a time when my family was homeless (yes, in Nassau). Members of the very church we attended were the first to spit in our faces when they found out. They did not show us Christ-like compassion. As a matter of fact, it took a "Samaritan" (by "our" church's standards) to offer to take us in for a while. And what have I gained from this? An understanding, nay, an awakening realization as to what The LORD meant when He talked about some who cry, "LORD, LORD..." In losing the comfort of my home, I gained the experience similar to what The LORD went through. And so when I speak on the subject of losing one's home, I speak with experience. Do you?

Why do you twist my words like that? I don't gamble and if another wants to let him do so . I can only bring my beliefs to the table and who doesn't want to accept it I cannot force them to do so. And I wont try.
But you do gamble, Psalm 22. You're going on faith with works in order to get a raiment from The LORD. Perhaps, not as prophesied here, but you still are nonetheless. And you were commissioned to teach others how to go on faith as well. And remember, you just can't have faith. You have to put it in action.


The question is: Would you do it?
The answer is: That is best left up to me and my faith, not Delroy and his view on my world.


That chapter of the Bible had noting to do with gambling.
When Zarephath did what Elijah asked she was acting on her faith in God.
She was not Gambling. In-fact she was the only one Elijah was sent to which clearly shows divine selection by God.
Read Luke 4:24-26
Jesus said: "Truly I say to you, no prophet is welcome in his hometown. 25 "But I say to you in truth, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the sky was shut up for three years and six months, when a great famine came over all the land; 26 and yet Elijah was sent to none of them, but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow.
God knew the choice she would make before she made it but this event had to be written for our benefit.

Disagreed. It has EVERYTHING to do with gambling. This is where FAITH, TRUE FAITH (the paradigm in which casting lots, taking risks and probability come into play) takes its form in gambling. Christ told us to be sober and vigilant. If you're only going to focus on what Satan's brought to this concept, then you're screwing yourself. What is the probability that a man can walk on water? Would you do it? What is the probablity that a prophet's slave could have his eyes opened to see that, 'there are more with us than against us'? Are your eyes opened? What's the probability a carpenter could go to a wedding and there be unlimited Dom Perignon? Would you believe?

You see, my point is basic: What would YOU do if you were in Peter's shoes? Gamble, step out onto the waves and possibly drown (but unbeknownst to you give certainty to others that follow) or would you stay in the boat like a good Bahamian?
Or even better, when Mary cried, thinking The ONE had arrived 'too late' to save Lazarus, do you truly know why HE wept?

It sickens me how some people (not necessarily you) desire to see miracles, but do not understand what it takes to make one.

You mean Matthew 14:17.
And again it was faith and not gambling.
Jesus was only acting on the faith of the 5000 people who were with Him.
It was because of their faith in Jesus that the miracle took place. They were not gambling.
They saw what Jesus had done for them before by healing their sick and other miracles so they were not taking a gamble by obeying Him.

My bad. Typo.

Cast your bread upon the waters....Prove me now herewith...
Riiiight, The Miracles of The Almighty NEED human faith in order to take form. Hmmm...Why that would mean, no Creation!
I encourage you to do more research as to whom The LORD was more pleased when He walked this earth. Them who had seen His miracles and then had faith, or they who'd never seen His miracles but had faith nonetheless before even meeting him? Some people did and do take a gamble in believing on and obeying. Like a child Delroy, like a child. Reconsider.


I am not in a position to place limits on anyone.
"Amen," was my first answer, but I wish to change it. If this is so, why can't I use intensifiers in my commentary without being censored by your censor script?

That is for the Government and the Law to decide. They decide how much alcohol you can consume and who can drink.

No, they can't. I can stay at home and drink myself into a first-class Prime Minister, they cannot touch me. They can decide other things related their governance connected with my drinking, such as:
"When o3parietal drinks, is he a member of Bahamian society that has all his faculties?"
Obviously not.
"Do we want him to function in a capacity that may cause wrongful harm or death to others?"
No.
"Can he walk the streets a drunk man?"
Sure, if he buck-up into a tree that's his business.
"What about driving?"
No, he stands to do more damage."

They can recommend and decide all they want to; but at the end of it all they cannot control what I put in my body. It is mine. I am responsible for it, that decision is left up to me.

They decide who can Gamble and who cannot. If you are unaware of your personal limitations but yet still do something that could potentially hurt someone then thats your fault. If your not sure that you can drive but still get behind the wheel of a car and in doing so; cause an accident who's fault is that?

Again with the worst-case scenario. Not everyone is like that Delroy, please stop lumping. I've never given CPR before, but I know how to. If you needed CPR and I gave it to you and you were resucitated successfully, would you get up and consider that my "fault"?

I hope we do meet someday parietal.

We already have Delroy. Right here, right now. But you're too blind to see that. Someone once was confused as to what I meant about, "being unconscious despite denuded eyes"? Classical example. This is why Christ wept. Why He'd get divinely pissed when they'd ask Him about signs, miracles and wonders.
Stop hoping and have faith. We will.

You have the right to do whatever you want with your money.
Yes, your divine righteousness, I thank you for your mercy in letting your blatantly stupid subserviant, controlled-by-somebody-else-other-than-Delroy average poster handle his own financial affairs.
Delroy, I know that. But why are you concerned about MY finances?

I will make it clear to you right now that the children of God are protected by Him and the only person you can destroy is yourself. But out of the love that I owe you because of Jesus and His sacrifice I am here show the truth with the hope that that doesn't happen to you.
Good, understood. Now, let me make some things crystalline clear to you. I will not do most things the way YOU want them done. Neither YOU nor I can save me nor anyone. I have never set out to destroy anyone, including Satan. I am not a warmonger, hatemonger or controlmonger. I give to GOD what is GOD's.
And for the record, that above statement makes it seem as if you've already made in your head a distinction between "children of God" and "people left for Delroy to save by way of counsel."

That was as you said; a Parable! God knows all things.
An allusion for those who don't have ears or eyes, put in an earthly situation so that earth people might understand. Very important! Christ told parables for a reason. He came at a time when the religious leaders were teaching that there is only ONE way to accept the scriptures... Edited, Revised and read only by them...
Instead of telling them what to do, or making them listen to dialogue, commentary, ethics, accounts and recounts. He simply put them in the shoes, using their everyday activities. Their lives became His book.
Consider that for a time the Scriptures have been in the hands of The Roman Catholic Church (a church who for the most part, believes the same way as the religious leaders in Christ's day did to an extent.) whereas, The Holy Spirit cannot be bound by such organizations.


None of them was wrong.
A wise person told me a while ago to be careful not to teach the Bible but allow the Bible to teach you. Hosea's Marriage to a prostitute was an illustration of God's marriage with Israel.
Though Israel was unfaithful to God as Gomer was unfaithful to Hosea, God never turned His back on Israel. Even though they separated for a time they were reconciled again. If everyone would follow this teaching there would be allot less divorces in this country.

Exactly, and there's your solution. Instead of doing away with marriage on the whole [in this case, gambling] depriving everyone else of the right and freedom... Wouldn't it be moreso sound, to simply not turn our backs to those who are irresponsible until (by way of our FAITH, HOPE and LOVE) they are reconciled to responsiblity? I agree Delroy.

That's the beauty of parables and accounts, when ONE may say it has NOTHING to do with one subject...Another may say, well, no look here...
That's my opinion on this subject. By way of Delroy, Him Whom I Serve has been glorified.

Take Care and Stay Safe.

It was God who brought us out of slavery and it was God that gave us our independence whether you believe it or not. Show me the horrific parts of the Bible and I will explain everyone for you and show you God's love in the midst of it all.

The treasury is broke now, we have imports but no exports, we do have hungry bellies, angry people and frighten politicians. Read the papers and watch the news. Or better yet, read what the people are saying here on Bahamas Issues.

God's economic plan is simple: "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matthew 6:33

Delroy Please refer to this website for the horrific parts of the Bible.There were so many that I could not type them all.
http://www.thehappyheretic.com/

Give me one then.

And I would also advise you to do some reaserch on Judith Hayes before you take seriously anything she says.
Start here: http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/whyReject.htm

Parietal,

Before we go on, here is what I originally said:
"Gambling is wrong when used for the gain of another’s loss (especially money)."
First of all; having faith is not gaining from another's loss.
That should answer all of your questions.

There was once a time when my family was homeless (yes, in Nassau). Members of the very church we attended were the first to spit in our faces when they found out. They did not show us Christ-like compassion. As a matter of fact, it took a "Samaritan" (by "our" church's standards) to offer to take us in for a while. And what have I gained from this? An understanding, nay, an awakening realization as to what The LORD meant when He talked about some who cry, "LORD, LORD..." In losing the comfort of my home, I gained the experience similar to what The LORD went through. And so when I speak on the subject of losing one's home, I speak with experience. Do you?
I have been homeless many times Parietal, me and my family. But God delivered us out of it all. Whatever church it was that didn't assist you in your time of need may God deal with that church. However for the readers sake; not all churches are like that.

Regards.

Delroy Please refer to this website for the horrific parts of the Bible.There were so many that I could not type them all.
http://www.thehappyheretic.com/

Judith Hayes offers her opinion on religious matters so do you. She just happens to be an atheist which does not in any way disqualifies her from critiquing your holy book. I am still awaiting your response to the question s put forth to you. What exactly is God's economic plan for the Bahamas and please be more specific with the details and also how can you answer my charge that the bible is filled with atrocities committed by God and also by his chosen people (Jews) under his directions.

Delroy, in this complicated world we live in, nothing is ever as black and white as you see it. There are consequences for every action so if you want to shut down the casino hotels then you had better have a damn good backup plan for our economic survival other than relying totally on an unproven formula from some unknown author who lived many moons ago in some forsaken tribal village in the middle of some desert over two thousand years ago.

I read the article on christian courier website and like Judith Hayes the writer has his opinion. I did find his reasoning for persons becoming an atheist pretty weak though. There are of course atheists who have made this decision out of emotionalism but the vast majority have pursued an intellectual investigation of the holy scriptures and have found no evidence for God existance in the them nor in nature for the matter. Only christian apologetics can find this evidence unfortunately the rest of us have to accept by faith. Yeah right!

Before we go on, here is what I originally said:
"Gambling is wrong when used for the gain of another’s loss (especially money)."
First of all; having faith is not gaining from another's loss.
That should answer all of your questions.

That, my dear sir, is open for divergent views. What Christ gave up in coming down here as Immanuel, and was prepared to give up or LOSE for The FATHER's Sake as The Lamb is the VERY reason as to why some are able to have faith. Other than that, their faith be in vain.

Abraham's faith concerning having a son at his age with Sarah was a gamble.

Going to Egypt with a wife as beautiful as Sarah for Abraham was a gamble.

Not killing Saul when he had the chance was a gamble of faith for David.

Rahab's faith was a gamble.

It mightn't seem that way to you, because you had nothing to lose, but...because of all those people's respective potential losses, you now gain confidence in Whom to trust. Reconsider.

Samson, made a bet (a gamble if you will) based on how well a secret can be kept. He lost based on a number of factors-main one being misplaced faith, trust/confidence. Can NOTHING be gained from Samson's experiences?

Yes, I am aware that not all churches are like that, that's why I spoke of one church- the one I had happened to attend at that time. I do not make it a habit of lumping consciously, but if in any way I've misled anyone into thinking otherwise-thanks for clearing that up for me.

Judith Hayes offers her opinion on religious matters so do you. She just happens to be an atheist which does not in any way disqualifies her from critiquing your holy book. I am still awaiting your response to the question s put forth to you. What exactly is God's economic plan for the Bahamas and please be more specific with the details and also how can you answer my charge that the bible is filled with atrocities committed by God and also by his chosen people (Jews) under his directions.

Truthseeker,

I can't be more specific than that.
If we seek the Kingdom of God we will have everything we need.
You see; everything we need to prosper as a nation is found within the Kingdom of God:
Wisdom, Love, Joy and Peace are all in the Kingdom.
If we have the wisdom of the Kingdom we can create a bulletproof economic plan ourselves.

If we have the Love of the Kingdom we can maintain it.
If we have the Joy of the Kingdom we can enjoy it.
If we have the Peace of the Kingdom we can keep it.

And I still ask you to just select one occasion out of the Bible where in your view atrocities happened.

That, my dear sir, is open for divergent views. What Christ gave up in coming down here as Immanuel, and was prepared to give up or LOSE for The FATHER's Sake as The Lamb is the VERY reason as to why some are able to have faith. Other than that, their faith be in vain.

Abraham's faith concerning having a son at his age with Sarah was a gamble.

Going to Egypt with a wife as beautiful as Sarah for Abraham was a gamble.

Not killing Saul when he had the chance was a gamble of faith for David.

Rahab's faith was a gamble.

It mightn't seem that way to you, because you had nothing to lose, but...because of all those people's respective potential losses, you now gain confidence in Whom to trust. Reconsider.

Samson, made a bet (a gamble if you will) based on how well a secret can be kept. He lost based on a number of factors-main one being misplaced faith, trust/confidence. Can NOTHING be gained from Samson's experiences?


Parietal,
If the following doesn't convince you I don't know what else will.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (where in there does it say faith is a gamble?)
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones. 23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned. 30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33[b] Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.[b] 35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 ( Of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Notice the text in bold parietal. This is one chapter that answers all of your last statements on every subject.

Parietal,
If the following doesn't convince you I don't know what else will.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (where in there does it say faith is a gamble?) Notice the text in bold parietal. This is one chapter that answers all of your last statements on every subject.

Delroy, I don't know anyone here that well and I can't see any of you. One, some, all or none of the posters on this site may just be one of those individuals who likes to dress in lingerie with big gruffy hairy arms and ruby red lipstick. But what keeps me coming back to this site? What brought me here in the first place?

I initally came here in hopes of finding a decent discussion board. I've found one. And even though I have evidence that this site vacillates between censorship and freedom of speech, it is in good faith that I stay and discourse. Even though I've evidence that this board vacillates between humour and solemnity, I stay and discourse. Posts could go either way on any day of the week. I stay because of the positivity that MAY come from the discussion on this board. It doesn't always come, and there is a chance it may not come. But I stay because of my faith.

If the people here had no faith in the positivity that MAY come from this thread. They would not be here and you would have to close it.

Now, The Bible never mentions that Yeshua took dumps and got erections. But we know he did.
And for the posting of Hebrews 11, thank you!
Now with the exception of Jephtha please tell me in each of those cases, what not only those individuals, but other Jews, Gentiles and Christians that desired the same thing stood to loose if each of those individual examples of faith did not exist.

They stood to loose the promises that God told them they would receive if they obeyed Him.

Let me explain the first verse for you:

If faith is the substance of things hoped for then to have faith we must have substance or in some translations; assurance.
Look up the word assurance in the dictionary.
This is what you should find:

Assurance:
The act of assuring.
A statement or indication that inspires confidence;
A guarantee or pledge:
Freedom from doubt; certainty:

Now tell me where is the guarantee in gambling?