o3parietal
09-13-03, - 02:39 PM
http://www.spirithome.com/paralots.html
Casting Lots
Casting lots is an ancient way of making certain kinds of decisions. The 'lot' involved can be the flip of a coin, a set of specially-marked stones (from which came dice), sticks wrapped with written words on them, or (in a modern version) slips of paper mixed up in a hat. The ancient stones or sticks would be thrown on the ground and then someone would figure out what it means based on rules agreed to beforehand or set by tradition. The ancients are said to have believed in the power of the throwing of lots, so much so that some (like the Mesopotamians) believed that even the gods were bound by them. (Actually, many of them were practical people with practical reasons to randomize many of their decisions. But we'll let the religious studies folk overblow the ancients' superstitiousness, and stick to the point.) There was a real belief that the gods (or just God) revealed themselves through random things, because ultimately nothing is random and all things are dictated by the gods (or God) or fate.
Lots were used in two ways in the Bible :
To select one person out of a group of people. For instance, in 1 Samuel 10:19-21, Israel's king was chosen by lot. Lots were used for choosing who got the job of supplying wood for the altar of the rebuilt Temple (Nehemiah 10:35). In Judges 20:9-10, warriors were chosen by lot. Luke 1:8-10 reports that it was the custom for groups of priests to use lots to choose who among them would offer incense to God in the Second Temple (this and other such uses of lots are reported in the Mishnah, in Yoma). In Acts 1:26, lots were cast to select a replacement apostle for Judas.
To give out goods among the people in a group. This was the most common use of lots in the Middle East and in the Graeco-Roman culture. When armies conquered an area and took valuables that could not easily be divided, lots would be cast to determine who would get each item. It's a way to resolve what would otherwise be a source of conflict. It takes favoritism, nepotism, pressure tactics, and campaigning out of the allotment process. This use is found in Isaiah 17:14 and Nahum 3:10. The prophets used this image to describe divine punishment for evildoing : their land would be divided by lot to their enemies, as if it were the spoils of war (Isaiah 34:17; Joel 4:3; Obadiah 11). While Jesus was on the cross, the soldiers cast lots for his seamless robe (John 19:24; see also Psalm 22:19). When Israel conquered Canaan, they distributed the land by lot (Numbers 26:52-56; 34:13; Joshua 14:19; 21:4-12). When the Israelites returned from exile, lots were used for selecting who would get to live on land in Jerusalem (Nehemiah 11:1). Proverbs 16:33 shows a positive view toward the casting of lots : "The lot is cast onto the lap / but its every decision is from the LORD." While it's not clear as to what use of lots it supports, other similar ancient sayings tell us that we should be satisfied with the goods God allots to us.
Lots As Divination
In ancient times, just as today, it was common to use lots to find out what God wanted them to do. This and any other sort of divination is condemned in Deuteronomy. Yet there is a specific exception given in the Torah : the use of the Urim and Thummim (marked stones) by the chief priests (Numbers 27:21; Deut 33:8). This use is authorized by God for difficult situations. In I Samuel 14, lots were used to discover who had acted against King Saul's rash command; Saul was clearly not commanded or authorized to use lots, but he did, with a 'successful' discovery that was almost horrible. The Septuagint translation, which in this case is probably more accurate, makes the use of lots more explicit by referring directly to Saul's use of the Urim and Thummim. In Esther, lots were used by the Persians (not the Jews) for determining when to act. Hence the name of the Jewish holiday Purim, from Akkadian puru (='lot'). But the Jews were not above using lots to suss out God. In Joshua, Israel lost at Ai, and used lots to find out whose evil deeds caused it; the lots were used at God's command (7:14). In Jonah, the sailors used lots to (correctly) find out whom God was angry with; God did not command the lots, but used it anyway.
Now, with all those people that cast lots without consulting first and the truth was revealed, is it possible, just possible that their cases Almighty God gave them the truth that He may be glorified?
Why Not?
The casting of lots was not itself forbidden in Scripture. !!God uses whatever means are at hand to communicate the divine will when the crunch comes!!
Agreed.
But a warning is needed here.
Here we go.
You are not the high priest, you are not a Biblical prophet. You have not been authorized by God to use lots to figure out what God is doing, so God won't be at work when you cast lots. Outside of the framework of God's commands, use of lots is just dumb luck. It tells you nothing.
There we go. This is my point. Almighty God has given me a framework. It's in that framework that I operate. For someone to say, "Oh you still gaining at the expense of other's losses-that's still gambling though. It's evil, we should do away with all gambling anyways..." For someone to say that, is a violation of my right to live within the framework and parameters The Almighty has set. Granted I'm not a High-priest, I live with one in me and it is with HIM I consult. Revelation 1:6. Tells me that Christ's Kingdom is in His priests and vice versa. The testimony of Jesus Christ is The Spirit of Prophecy. This tells me whenever I testify of Christ and His will !!accurately!! I am His prophet, even if only for a brief period.
Using the casting of lots as a way of divvying up goods or adding randomness to a situation (like dice in a board game, or a coin flip) can sometimes be a good way of doing things. But using lots as a way of finding God's will is not.
Amen. "You plan a pretty picnic but you can't predict the weather." You could step outside, look at the sky and guage the probability of rain-there's no guarantee it will rain upon that occasion. There's no guarantee it won't either. Though we have our senses, perceptions and knowledge of weather for a reason, to obtain an infallible answer, we must go to The Infallible.
It is divination, and God has spoken clearly against that.
Here it comes now... It is also a lack of trust in what God has already given you : the Scriptures,boom
The Holy Spirit,boom tradition,boom your fellow believers,boom your mind,boom your conscience.boom
We are in the same boat as King Saul, when in his pride he usurped high-priestly authority and almost had his son killed. It is far better to trust in truth than chance.
Exactly. There are too many people usurping Christ's authority nowadays, so on "people" I don't take chances. I cannot, knowing full well, that The Almighty moves in mysterious ways- rule out possiblities for everyone because "people" say so.
I can rule out possiblities for myself. He's given me that choice, but always I consult HIM first, The Holy Spirit, The Scriptures, Conscience, Mind, (tradition and fellow believers are more often than not found in the Scriptures) before I make moves.
Yes, CG I agree. I'm referring to #2. Like a previous point I made to Delroy, if one focuses solely on the distortion of the original concept a whole lot is overlooked and lost.
--suck teet-- Look how they already got the original meaning in the #2 position. Tsk. Tsk.
Casting Lots
Casting lots is an ancient way of making certain kinds of decisions. The 'lot' involved can be the flip of a coin, a set of specially-marked stones (from which came dice), sticks wrapped with written words on them, or (in a modern version) slips of paper mixed up in a hat. The ancient stones or sticks would be thrown on the ground and then someone would figure out what it means based on rules agreed to beforehand or set by tradition. The ancients are said to have believed in the power of the throwing of lots, so much so that some (like the Mesopotamians) believed that even the gods were bound by them. (Actually, many of them were practical people with practical reasons to randomize many of their decisions. But we'll let the religious studies folk overblow the ancients' superstitiousness, and stick to the point.) There was a real belief that the gods (or just God) revealed themselves through random things, because ultimately nothing is random and all things are dictated by the gods (or God) or fate.
Lots were used in two ways in the Bible :
To select one person out of a group of people. For instance, in 1 Samuel 10:19-21, Israel's king was chosen by lot. Lots were used for choosing who got the job of supplying wood for the altar of the rebuilt Temple (Nehemiah 10:35). In Judges 20:9-10, warriors were chosen by lot. Luke 1:8-10 reports that it was the custom for groups of priests to use lots to choose who among them would offer incense to God in the Second Temple (this and other such uses of lots are reported in the Mishnah, in Yoma). In Acts 1:26, lots were cast to select a replacement apostle for Judas.
To give out goods among the people in a group. This was the most common use of lots in the Middle East and in the Graeco-Roman culture. When armies conquered an area and took valuables that could not easily be divided, lots would be cast to determine who would get each item. It's a way to resolve what would otherwise be a source of conflict. It takes favoritism, nepotism, pressure tactics, and campaigning out of the allotment process. This use is found in Isaiah 17:14 and Nahum 3:10. The prophets used this image to describe divine punishment for evildoing : their land would be divided by lot to their enemies, as if it were the spoils of war (Isaiah 34:17; Joel 4:3; Obadiah 11). While Jesus was on the cross, the soldiers cast lots for his seamless robe (John 19:24; see also Psalm 22:19). When Israel conquered Canaan, they distributed the land by lot (Numbers 26:52-56; 34:13; Joshua 14:19; 21:4-12). When the Israelites returned from exile, lots were used for selecting who would get to live on land in Jerusalem (Nehemiah 11:1). Proverbs 16:33 shows a positive view toward the casting of lots : "The lot is cast onto the lap / but its every decision is from the LORD." While it's not clear as to what use of lots it supports, other similar ancient sayings tell us that we should be satisfied with the goods God allots to us.
Lots As Divination
In ancient times, just as today, it was common to use lots to find out what God wanted them to do. This and any other sort of divination is condemned in Deuteronomy. Yet there is a specific exception given in the Torah : the use of the Urim and Thummim (marked stones) by the chief priests (Numbers 27:21; Deut 33:8). This use is authorized by God for difficult situations. In I Samuel 14, lots were used to discover who had acted against King Saul's rash command; Saul was clearly not commanded or authorized to use lots, but he did, with a 'successful' discovery that was almost horrible. The Septuagint translation, which in this case is probably more accurate, makes the use of lots more explicit by referring directly to Saul's use of the Urim and Thummim. In Esther, lots were used by the Persians (not the Jews) for determining when to act. Hence the name of the Jewish holiday Purim, from Akkadian puru (='lot'). But the Jews were not above using lots to suss out God. In Joshua, Israel lost at Ai, and used lots to find out whose evil deeds caused it; the lots were used at God's command (7:14). In Jonah, the sailors used lots to (correctly) find out whom God was angry with; God did not command the lots, but used it anyway.
Now, with all those people that cast lots without consulting first and the truth was revealed, is it possible, just possible that their cases Almighty God gave them the truth that He may be glorified?
Why Not?
The casting of lots was not itself forbidden in Scripture. !!God uses whatever means are at hand to communicate the divine will when the crunch comes!!
Agreed.
But a warning is needed here.
Here we go.
You are not the high priest, you are not a Biblical prophet. You have not been authorized by God to use lots to figure out what God is doing, so God won't be at work when you cast lots. Outside of the framework of God's commands, use of lots is just dumb luck. It tells you nothing.
There we go. This is my point. Almighty God has given me a framework. It's in that framework that I operate. For someone to say, "Oh you still gaining at the expense of other's losses-that's still gambling though. It's evil, we should do away with all gambling anyways..." For someone to say that, is a violation of my right to live within the framework and parameters The Almighty has set. Granted I'm not a High-priest, I live with one in me and it is with HIM I consult. Revelation 1:6. Tells me that Christ's Kingdom is in His priests and vice versa. The testimony of Jesus Christ is The Spirit of Prophecy. This tells me whenever I testify of Christ and His will !!accurately!! I am His prophet, even if only for a brief period.
Using the casting of lots as a way of divvying up goods or adding randomness to a situation (like dice in a board game, or a coin flip) can sometimes be a good way of doing things. But using lots as a way of finding God's will is not.
Amen. "You plan a pretty picnic but you can't predict the weather." You could step outside, look at the sky and guage the probability of rain-there's no guarantee it will rain upon that occasion. There's no guarantee it won't either. Though we have our senses, perceptions and knowledge of weather for a reason, to obtain an infallible answer, we must go to The Infallible.
It is divination, and God has spoken clearly against that.
Here it comes now... It is also a lack of trust in what God has already given you : the Scriptures,boom
The Holy Spirit,boom tradition,boom your fellow believers,boom your mind,boom your conscience.boom
We are in the same boat as King Saul, when in his pride he usurped high-priestly authority and almost had his son killed. It is far better to trust in truth than chance.
Exactly. There are too many people usurping Christ's authority nowadays, so on "people" I don't take chances. I cannot, knowing full well, that The Almighty moves in mysterious ways- rule out possiblities for everyone because "people" say so.
I can rule out possiblities for myself. He's given me that choice, but always I consult HIM first, The Holy Spirit, The Scriptures, Conscience, Mind, (tradition and fellow believers are more often than not found in the Scriptures) before I make moves.
Yes, CG I agree. I'm referring to #2. Like a previous point I made to Delroy, if one focuses solely on the distortion of the original concept a whole lot is overlooked and lost.
--suck teet-- Look how they already got the original meaning in the #2 position. Tsk. Tsk.