We have all brought our .02 cents to bear on this question Bible: Fact or Fiction and have all remained resolute in our respective positions. I believe because all of us have used an assortment of criteria for discerning fact from fiction this discussion has not answered the pertinent question. Perhaps for some of us this stalemate is okay because it leaves them comforted in their knowledge or lack there of about biblical history. For future discussions we should agree on a specific formula for discerning fact from fiction, otherwise we end up meandering into peripheral issues which may or may not have anything to do with the subject matter. I know this is a popular formula (sidetracting) for most christian apologist therefore I don't expect any of their support on this one.

Maybe we should just conclude this thread because we seem to be getting nowhere but then again I could be wrong. Maybe there are some folks still gleening info from this thread for their own personal use. :raw:

We have all brought our .02 cents to bear on this question Bible: Fact or Fiction and have all remained resolute in our respective positions. I believe because all of us have used an assortment of criteria for discerning fact from fiction this discussion has not answered the pertinent question. Perhaps for some of us this stalemate is okay because it leaves them comforted in their knowledge or lack there of about biblical history. For future discussions we should agree on a specific formula for discerning fact from fiction, otherwise we end up meandering into peripheral issues which may or may not have anything to do with the subject matter. I know this is a popular formula (sidetracting) for most christian apologist therefore I don't expect any of their support on this one.

Maybe we should just conclude this thread because we seem to be getting nowhere but then again I could be wrong. Maybe there are some folks still gleening info from this thread for their own personal use. :raw:

You are right Truthseeker. However, I had no illusion that I could convince anyone, who did not want to be convinced, that the Bible has a value. Nor could I, or you, convince anyone that the Bible was fact, or fiction! As you say, we are all armed with our illustrations, our "facts" and beliefs.

Perhaps you could give us some criteria for discerning fact from fiction? In Science it is, is the experiment repeatable, with the same results - can't do that in Religion!. All disciplines have a criterion for judging. But what can we use to judge something so....so....untestable as faith?

On the subject of closing this thread. I should think that somewhere out there someone is watching this thread with interest. I wish they would post, but that is up to them. Maybe someone is learning. Perhaps they are looking harder at their Bible if only to challenge, or confirm, what has been written here. Anything that helps people to open and read they Holy Books, is OK by me!

I was under the impression that we were judging the bible based on historical factual criteria as opposed to one's faith in its message. I can not in my estimation determine whether someone's faith is factual or fictional because faith is scientifically untestable and subjected to predetermined notions by the observer, religious or otherwise. There are for the record many historical/factual inconsistences in the bible that given the readers personal beliefs can be determined in a myriad of ways. eg Delroy and O3parietal posts. Because as the good gentleman O3 has indicated everything we observe/experience or read is based on our intepretation of those events and no two persons will see these events in the same fashion. Nevertheless, I believe it is each and everyone's duty to continuously search for the truth and never become overly dogmatic in our beliefs/philosophies because ultimately our perspectives tend to shift like sands in a desert based on our understanding of reality.

I was under the impression that we were judging the bible based on historical factual criteria as opposed to one's faith in its message. I can not in my estimation determine whether someone's faith is factual or fictional because faith is scientifically untestable and subjected to predetermined notions by the observer, religious or otherwise. There are for the record many historical/factual inconsistences in the bible that given the readers personal beliefs can be determined in a myriad of ways. eg Delroy and O3parietal posts. Because as the good gentleman O3 has indicated everything we observe/experience or read is based on our intepretation of those events and no two persons will see these events in the same fashion. Nevertheless, I believe it is each and everyone's duty to continuously search for the truth and never become overly dogmatic in our beliefs/philosophies because ultimately our perspectives tend to shift like sands in a desert based on our understanding of reality.
i understand what you are saying...but some of us tend to
"interpert" the bible so much to our advantage that we tend to adulterate the "facts" to suit our own personal "egos"....
and yea yea yea yea we have to answer the call of the lord for our selves......but,one shouldnt be upset with the fact that some one tells you to rethink your "facts"

holla!!

I can not in my estimation determine whether someone's faith is factual or fictional because faith is scientifically untestable and subjected to predetermined notions by the observer, religious or otherwise.

Boy oh boy Truthseeker :rolleyes:

You is amaze me sometimes.
How can you say ones faith is scientifically untestable when you can look right in your home or outside and see faith in action and being tested everyday? Even right here in this forum.

You know that you needed faith to type your last reply?

Delroy, you asked a question, I answered it in post 155 of this thread. So far, unless I missed it, you have not commented. I am disappointed!

Delroy, you asked a question, I answered it in post 155 of this thread. So far, unless I missed it, you have not commented. I am disappointed!

Don't be disappointed CG because I am coming back to you.
I feel that I a put something together that is bullet proof or we will run this thread into 110 pages.

You made some references to the Dhammapada...
I have never read the Dhammapada or heard about it before. Therefore I cannot give you a good debate being uneducated about your belief.

I will be back very soon.


Trust me ;)

Boy oh boy Truthseeker :rolleyes:

You is amaze me sometimes.
How can you say ones faith is scientifically untestable when you can look right in your home or outside and see faith in action and being tested everyday? Even right here in this forum.

You know that you needed faith to type your last reply?

Faith is an abstract concept contigent upon the emotions/devotion of the faithful in regards to their particular religion. We are not referring to everyday occurrences which happen autonomously or independently of direct thoughts like typing, walking or riding a bike. These types of behaviors are learned and over time through continuous trial and effort become instinctive/habitual. No faith is required Mr. Watson. :confused: I suspect you are confusing the two, instincts and faith. In any event, I was referring to religious faith which can not be scientifically tested. As I look out my window all I see are trees, buildings and cars driven by people, not faith sir.

Don't be disappointed CG because I am coming back to you.
I feel that I a put something together that is bullet proof or we will run this thread into 110 pages.

You made some references to the Dhammapada...
I have never read the Dhammapada or heard about it before. Therefore I cannot give you a good debate being uneducated about your belief.

I will be back very soon.

Trust me ;)

I do trust you Delroy! I look forward, with the greatest of excitement to your reply. I doubt that you will change my mind, or that I will change yours. However, we can give each other (and those reading) something to chew on. I am very acquainted with the Christian views (all of them!) I was lucky to audit, and in some cases take, many classes in the Protestant and Catholic theologies.

P.S. The Dhammapada is made up of 423 verses spoken by the Buddha on 304+ occasions. It is not just for Buddhists but for anyone seeking wisdom. It is one of the great books of faith and morals in the library of world religions. I am sure you can find a copy on line. But be careful! Like any religion on the net, there is a lot of misinformation out there!

The Bible as you see it to day was started by the Roman Emperor Constantine he was a practicing Pagan.
It was he that called Christian leaders together and they decided what would be in the Bible. Look up the Nicene Council.

Not to mention The King James Version. King James was a practicing homosexual.

Not to mention that most of the information in the Bible was passed on by word of mouth for hunders of years. When I was young in school we would play a game called telephone. 1 or 2 classes would sit in a circle and one kid would tell the kid to the right a secret. It would go around the circle and come out as something completely different for the last kid.

Delroy do you follow all the rules and laws in the Bible????

Vicky, you said, "The Bible as you see it to day was started by the Roman Emperor Constantine he was a practicing Pagan. It was he that called Christian leaders together and they decided what would be in the Bible. Look up the Nicene Council." The main thrust of the Nicene Council was the Trinity and agreeing on the Nicene Creed. The Bible has undergone many revisions since that time but you are right, in the main, that the Council was a milestone in the History of the Bible.

We also said, "Not to mention The King James Version. King James was a practicing homosexual." Had not heard King James was a homosexual, but it would not surprise me, nor does it matter. He did not take anything out of the Bible that reflects badly on homosexuality.

Then you said, "Not to mention that most of the information in the Bible was passed on by word of mouth for hunders of years. When I was young in school we would play a game called telephone. 1 or 2 classes would sit in a circle and one kid would tell the kid to the right a secret. It would go around the circle and come out as something completely different for the last kid." I think you are forgetting something. In societies that do not have writing, or where few read, the oral tradition is very strong. People are able to memorize vast amounts of information and give it back word perfect. They have to! These are, in many cases, the words of Salvation - they can't afford to be messed up. A case in point. For centuries the makers of Samurai swords (a religious item to some) had no written instructions on the complected recipe for the sword. So, the formula was laid down like a religious ceremony, memorized, and passed down from sword maker to sword maker, with each sword coming out the same.

Your illustration of the kids being unable to pass on information without scrambling it is not surprising. No doubt the kids had little time to memorize the secret properly. Also, it is a game not Holy writings needed for the salivation of the soul. It proves noting, it is a party amusement. It would be like giving those same kids buckets of paint and asking them to paint the works of the Sistine Chapel on the school roof. They could not do it. They would not have the skills needed. So, would that prove that Michelangelo could not have done it either?

Delroy do you follow all the rules and laws in the Bible????

I follow the Laws of Jesus Christ.

I follow the Laws of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ never wrote any laws nor did he utter any that was not said before by other pagan mythological gods or Old Testament Jewish prophets. In fact most of what Jesus was believed to have said in the New Testament is strikingly similar to what the Buddha said 500 years earlier than what is written in the New Testament. Now tell me Delroy what Laws of Jesus Christ do you follow seeing that he was an illiterate/never wrote anything prophet? I eagerly await your reply.

By the way CG adults play that very same game that Vicky played as a child with very similar results.

By the way CG adults play that very same game that Vicky played as a child with very similar results.

Don't doubt that at all Truthseeker, but what applies to the kids applies to the adults.

P.S. Easy on the word Pagan! One definition says it is someone who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew. Another says that it is a person without a religion! I may qualify for one but not the other! ;) :D :angel: