The Bible: Fact or Fiction?

[Delroy]

Do you believe that the Bible is what it says it is or just a story book?
Is it the words of a living God or just the thoughts of men?

What are your thoughts on this?

Please post your comments below.

[CG]

"Do you believe that the Bible is what it says it is or just a story book? " I believe it is what it says AND it is a story book. But the way "story book" is not a negative term. We are a creature that needs stories. We form our lives from stories. Stories are a way of informing us about life.

"Is it the words of a living God or just the thoughts of men?" I don't really know! If it is the word of God then it is good. If it is the thoughts of men then it is also good. We learn from the experiences of other who have walked the path before us.

There is a lot of doubt these days when it comes to the Scriptures. Men of "reason" say that these things could not have happened - the Virgin Birth, walking on the water, Jesus rising from the dead. Noah's Flood. These are impossible things. Yet, the church insists all the stories in the Bible are to be understood as facts, things that really happened and if you can't see it that way then you are in error. Many people turn away from the faith because they can't, in good conscience, believe it as fact. They also feel that have no where else to go, so they give up believing - their numbers grow by the day.

I have spent most of my life studying religions of all kinds. There are other, older stories of a great flood. There are many Virgin Birth stories. Buddha walked on the water 500 years before Christ, and there are stories of people returning from the dead in many religions. What does it all mean and why the same stories over and over?

There are two ways to understand any holy scripture. 1, as fact. 2, as a symbolic document meant to open us up to higher truths. I think that the Bible, amongst other Holy Books, can be read as a symbolic piece. The Book of Revelations is a book of pure symbolism, everyone admits that.

Let me give you a short story. You and I meet on the street I tell you that my car had broke down earlier this morning. I then add, "I had to walk everywhere. I walked ‘tell my feet dropped off!" You look down and my feet are still there! Do you then assume that I have tried to mislead you or do you understand exactly what I meant?. I meant I walked a lot! Everyone can understand that! It is a common saying, easily understood. In the time that many of the Holy Books were being written it was common to use metaphor, symbolism, etc, that were well known to the readers of the time - some have been lost to us, others remain.

I don't want to make this to long so I will touch on one thing. Jesus (earlier the Buddha) walking on water. We spend so much time trying to make this story a fact that we lose the message. First, what does water stand for? Think about it. When a baby is born the first thing that happens is that the water appears. The Children of Israel passed through the waters of the red sea, from their old life to the new. In baptism the old sinful man goes into the water and a new man comes out - a man who is now a new child of God. (By the way Baptism predates Christianity by thousands of years. Christianity picked up a symbol that was well understood.) So, whenever you see water in any scripture look for what when in and what comes out. Water stands for new life, and for change. It can also stand for time. ("A lot of water has gone under the bridge since I was a child," so goes an old saying.) Jesus, and others, walked on top of the water. He did not have to go into water and come out different because he was, unchanged before time began.(the sign of a Savior.) He did not have to begin anew, or become something new. The people of his era, when they read the story, would have "got it" right away.

The Bible is a symbolic book. All spiritual books are symbolic, that is the language of Religion - perhaps the language of God.

[o3parietal]

"An image can sometimes provide a symbolic programme in what is almost a catalogue form."

I believe The Bible is a book written by men inspired of SOMETHING REAL.
There is no doubt in my mind that spirits exist. NONE. At the age of four my maternal grandfather started to teach me things I would need to know to later fill his shoes as Ipsissimus.

I am not an Ipsissimus and I am not a Mason. Do not approach me with such silly, weak concepts or you will be met with displeasure.
That said, I do not believe that The Original Bible is an exercise in Jungian concepts, before they were named as such. I have doubt in my mind that The Vulgate was the original script. So I go by way of Holy Spirit.

But there are things I've witnessed in this life that let me know that humans are not the smartest thing in skins. Nor are we the most powerful. I KNOW that somewhere, there exists someone who is The Utmost. And I know that the only way to reach and be at peace with That Utmost, you must first BE YOURSELF. This means being truthful with whom and what you are and being willing to share that. Be sincere and offer yourSELF. The Utmost does the rest. It's like any other relationship really. You can't build it on lies, fantasy, solely your point of view and expect it to work.

I've SEEN This Utmost reciprocate. Always fair. Always merciful. I've seen This Utmost understood and misunderstood. Both in The Holy Bible and outside of it. I've asked for a name, and the answer I got back was not Adonai, Jesus or any other name but YAHWEH.
I asked if He was a 'he' or 'she' I was suggested to consider him a "He" if that's what my mind is capable of understanding, but to never forget that what I consider feminine, came from the masculine; and what I considered masculine is only a minor quality of his "character."

That saying, I see ALOT of Him in me, and alot of myself in Him.
I've read the Bible, back to front? No.
I've attended temples and places of worship of all kinds, all of them? No.
I've seen systematic patterns and traits of what the Voudouns called "loa." Angels...good, bad, ugly and righteous.

But I've found this to be true: The Bible is a book of words and letters that give accounts of truths and falsehoods, testimony, ethics, riddles, proverbs, secrets to life, secrets to death...It's to be considered. NOT WORSHIPPED.

But who am I that you ask me? I learned my alphabet from an 8ft. 2inch. tall talking canary (who snores and can't fly). Big Bird isn't real, and he will probably be eight years old for the rest of his life.
I learned to count from a dapper, violet dhampire. Count Von Count doesn't drink blood, he's not real...but I'll give you this: He is a character.

I know of good, evil and righteousness. I've done good, evil and righteousness. I know how to kill a man using only a Quarter, but I can't bring him back.
So when I say, don't ask me, use your mind and heart and call on Him yourself to find out... Either I MUST have something to constitute that statement OR I must be a individual who cannot distinguish fantasy, fallacy and reality.
I've lived with my pubic hair all my pubescent life, but I don't know how many individual ones I've got. I use fire everyday, but I don't know how much it weighs. Granted, yesterday was a day in MY life, I can't bring it back to do something different for my sake.

Don't ask me. I'm an experienced but fallible source. You want the infallible. Go to The Infallible. "YAHWEH", and if you haven't heard yet, He has many sons and daughters, one in particular I've found to be a curiosity. So far, ONLY ONE SON I've heard has claimed to be The FIRST and THE LAST. Consider.
Something else to consider, The Bible has passed through the hands of The Roman Catholic Church. The Holy Spirit cannot be chained as The Vulgate was.

[o3parietal]

There are two ways to understand any holy scripture. 1, as fact. 2, as a symbolic document meant to open us up to higher truths. I think that the Bible, amongst other Holy Books, can be read as a symbolic piece. The Book of Revelations is a book of pure symbolism, everyone admits that.

I can find four. Consider.

Fourfold Interpretation.

Literal (historical)-what story actually says ("Litera gesta docet")

Typological (allegorical)-illustrates truths ("Allegoria quod credas")

Moral (tropological)-conversion of soul, what should be done ("Moralia quod agas")

Anagogical (eschatological)-deals with "4 last things (Heaven, Hell, Death & Judgment)," eternity ("Quo tendas anagogica")

For example: Exodus read on the 4 levels would include

1.The actual crossing of the Red Sea by the Hebrews.

2.Reading the Hebrews as a "type" of the soul redeemed by Christ.

3.Reading the crossing of the sea as a lesson: that humans are all sinful and must leave wicked habits and cross over to God, with His help.

4.Reading the whole passage as illustrative of the way God's universe is ordered, all leading out of evil and upward into Heaven.

[CG]

Good for you 03Parietal :) your getting the message. There is more than one way to read a Scripture :cheers:

[o3parietal]

For my sake I'd better. I don't know whether or not "Enochian" was the first tongue spoken, but I know this: Latin wasn't.
Also, Moses wrote the first five books...Neither "Adam" and/nor "Eve" are Egyptian or Hebrew words. Can we say, "Something's fishy?"

[Truthseeker]

The bible is not a book of complete historical facts. It is a mixture of cultural fables/legends and some facts by many different peoples of diverse background. Some of the names of original oral traditionalist are lost to us so we can not say with any degree of certainty who wrote what in the book. The original manuscripts of the bible are lost to us therefore the accuracy in the copying process is again lost to us . The bible as it presently exist was written many years after the actual events took place so once again we are face with inaccuracies and human intepretation of the relevant events. As a previous writer indicated earlier the Bible came through the Catholic Church so we are left to accept their version of its accuracy or investigate for ouselves.

From my investigation I am lead to believe that the Bible is not the word of any God but the word of men to convey moral and cultural messages to the mostly illiterate masses at the time.

Jeremiah 8
How can you say "We have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely.

[dacy2003]

Delroy, I have monitored the board for a few weeks without responsing to many of the post, and it has be hard, honestly :D

Today I just want to express my amusement that so much effort is put in to proofing if God exist, now if the Bible is true...

Isn't is just amazing that of all the religion, Christianity is always under fire. Of all the names Jesus is the one profaned? How is it that someone who is so unimportant, His name is so powerful and is the cause for so much discomfort.

How is that other religious books are not debated for their authenticity, but this alone is proof within itself that the God of the Bible is the one true God and that His Word, the Bible is powerful enough to provoke men throughout the ages to examine themselves according to the words written there in.

I do believe that if the Bible and the God of the Bible was not real we could all ignore their existence!

My God always was, He is, and after we are all gone, He will continue to be. He always come out on top, He is greater than those who do not understand and their proof to discredit Him, He is so greater that He swears by HIMSELF...isn't that awesome...God does not need us, God will be great without us, He exist even if we are not here, Don't you guys get it yet...HE IS GOD!!!! {To you be all praise, Father!}

[CG]

dacy2003 you wrote" "Today I just want to express my amusement that so much effort is put in to proofing if God exist, now if the Bible is true..." This is important stuff! Perhaps not to you as you are comfortable with your belief system. However, there are many people who are confused. They don't really know what they are supposed to believe, or if they can even believe at all.

You went on the say, "Isn't is just amazing that of all the religion, Christianity is always under fire." I think Judaism is under fire too, and sometime literally! Right now all religions are in trouble and "under fire." People are moving away from belief in a God. This is sad. I wish religion would wake up and see that.

You then said, "...His name (Jesus) is so powerful and is the cause for so much discomfort." Because to many bad things were done in his name - memories are long! Happily, we can say that the name also causes great comfort for many.

Here is a point! "How is that other religious books are not debated for their authenticity..." Well, some are but the Bible is one of the few books that its followers insist be taken literally. Here lies the problem. It stories (many of them) cannot be taken literally anymore - we know too much. As Joseph Campbell said, talking about the ascension of Christ, "We know now that even at the speed of light his body would not be out of the known universe yet." Religion has not kept up with knowledge.

I differ with you when you said, ..."but this alone is proof within itself that the God of the Bible is the one true God." No it does not. It just proved that there are problems in interpretation. However, I do agree with you when you said, "....and that His Word, the Bible is powerful enough to provoke men throughout the ages to examine themselves according to the words written there in." Right! This is what any Scripture should be doing.

[Truthseeker]

I hope we can use this thread to debate the facts about the authenticity of the bible and not belittle individuals because they do see things differently than the christian or spiritual person. Let us debate with proven historical Facts not quotes from the bible, otherwise this thread would just degenerate into preachy sermons. Search outside the bible for your proof as to why, when, where and how it was witten. I have read enough of the preaching in the religion threads so do me this favour please! :) because you fervently believe something does not necessarily make it true only the facts can do that.

[dacy2003]

What are you afraid of?

You chose to quote every and anything, I chose to quote what I believe...what's with you anyways...

You go around saying anything you so please but you want to tell me what to say...I see you have not mature since our last encounter...
well neither have I! :bored:

[CG]

Truthseeker, I hope that your remarks, as well stated as they are, are not directed at me. But I take your point. Alas, for the believers in the Bible, they see that the proof for the Bible is the Bible itself! That is rather like going to the Bank and when asked if you can identify your- self you pull out a pocket mirror, look in it and say, "Yes, that me!"

You said, "...because you fervently belief something does not make it true only the facts can do that." There are so few creditable, independent facts. There lies the problem. Does anyone have any Extra-Biblical (outside the Bible) proof? Or, and I ask with all respect, do you really need facts and proof?

[dacy2003]

CG

How can I say this without coming off as rude...

I don't really care if you agree with my statements...I really don't need you to agree.

Religion is a universal problem, now Relationship is something special. Don't you see man's wisdom is foolish...so all the scientific studies and proof does not change what your heart and my heart tells us is true.
And the reason why deep in our hearts we know that the God of the Bible is true, because it recognizes its Creator and acknowledge every expression of HIM.

To believe is a choice, to disbelieve is also a choice, but a mistake that results in eternal death, because you would have rejected the only begotten Son of God...no joking with that.

CG, My God is real, His principals and commandments recorded in the Bible are for real, this is just how it is...no matter what other god man may chose to worship, one day we all will behold Him and we will recognize HIM...

[Truthseeker]

CG my remarks were not directed at you personally but to those individuals who refuse to bring some level of rationality to our discussion. I am not trying to suppress anyone's belief system, but would like an objective honest dialogue going. dacy2003 is that too much to ask of you? I accept and understand most of your beliefs CG, Delroy, dacy2003, Cedric Moss and even Oparietal sometimes. :p

CG you say that there is insufficient evidence to properly answer the question but I beg to differ. If we approach this subject rationally and weigh the facts against the widely held beliefs we can gain an appreciation of the truth about the bible authenticity. Many christians and non-christian scholars have studied the scriptures in their historical/political/religious context and have passed onto to us useful information which may be pertinent to this debate.

Let us assume for the sake of this discussion that all of us have stumble for the first time upon this book 'The Bible'. Obviously after we have read the stories contained within there are going to be many questions asked about this book because it contains incredible events and sayings which are ordinarily outside of our natural observation. First and formost, if we are to accept this Bible as fact/fiction, given its incredible stories, we would need to have some personal information about the character of its authors eg name, place of origin, objectivity in reporting, culture, etc. Secondly we might want to know if these events or saying in the Bible are testifiable and can withstand closer scrutiny.Thirdly, we may also want to know if the events contain in the Bible correspond with any other proven historical events/timelines. Finally we would want to objectively know if this Bible's written words are superlative to any other written/religious books/documents of its kind.

I believe these are just some of the criteria we should apply when deciding if the Bible is Fact or Fiction. Remember we are not trying to decide if you believe in the bible only whether or not it is a work of fact or fiction because people can believe either.

Yes CG we do need facts or proof to support our assertions. This is how it is done in the natural world. Not everyone has the capacity to understand the spiritual realm like Delroy or Oparietal. Simple non-religious folks like me need proof for now.

[CG]

dacy2003 You have NOT come off a rude at all! I understand, and respect, your belief. I also respect and read the Christian Bible.

Man's wisdom is not always foolish. Sometimes it is wise. Most of the time it is an up hill struggle to understand the world around us and the capricious nature of things. Sometimes mankind is wrong, but because it is willing to adapt it can change and in time, comes to the truth. The church cannot, or will not adapt.

You wrote, "My God is real, His principals and commandments recorded in the Bible are for real, this is just how it is..." Those principles and commandments are good, they are needed. I would do nothing to move you from them but they are not exclusive to the Christian faith. 500 years before Jesus, Buddha was saying the same things, often word for word! My point is that we are more in agreement that we are in disagreement. There is a universal truth that it to be found in all religions.

Religions must unite. Sadly, because Christians thinks that they hold the only truth, THEY are the stumbling blocks to true understanding. The Bible, as great a book as it is, is set in stone. As the world changes, it does not. This will "kill" it, as other religions have died. Don't forget, Christianity is the "new kid" on the block. Most religions are older. Most religions die in time. Adapt or die that is the thing. Give a little! God does!