What is the Church's role in our society?

Everywhere you turn there is a new church with a new doctrine. Everywhere you turn there is a tent set up preaching the holy gospel. There must be as many prophets as there are stars. Every day someone becomes a reverend doctor. No study, no significant works to warrant an honorary degree, yet they become honorary doctor of divinity. When and where will it all end?

Too many of the churches are nothing more than temples. The same kind of temple Jesus ransacked because it was indistinguishable from a market. The idols are all over the churches now. The pastors and priests and preachers adorn themselves in all kind of religious finery and regalia. Even as they decorate their bodies with the clothes of Judas, their mental and intellectual loyalty to money, women, power, and corruption continue unabated.

Most of these religious leaders need to be washed in the blood of the lamb. Most of these religious leaders see their flock simply as a meal ticket; a springboard to easy money and power. With the government's new bent, they see access to the Public Treasury. Churches should not be given one dime from the Public Treasury. The members of a church should sustain that church. If money has to flow, the churches should contribute money to the Public Treasury.

Oh I love to hear the preachers explain away what Jesus meant when he said it was harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it was for a camel to get through the eye of a needle. The first thing they tell you is that he did not say it was impossible. The next thing they tell you is that Jesus can work that miracle for you. Then they imply that the miracle of getting you and the camel through the eye of the needle can be gauranteed by hefty, regular tithing.

Tithe by giving money or resources to the Red Cross. Give to the Cancer Society. Give to the Children's emergency Hostel. Give to the Ranfurly Home for Children. "Whatever you do for the least of my brethren, so you do unto me". Give your money directly to the poor if you are inclined to give. Let them close down some of these wicked churches!

Not all churches are corrupt and neither are all religious leaders.
Christ was true when He told the Parable of the Sower: “But while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares (weeds that resemble wheat) also among the wheat, and went away.” Matthew 13:25.

There are tares among true believers but the Bible also says in verse 26 of the same chapter: “But when the wheat sprang up and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.” Matthew 13:26. Thus, tares among true Christian will not go unnoticed when new grain (believers) comes into the Church and exposes them.

We should not worry about corruption in the church because Christ makes it evident in verses 28-30 of the same chapter that corruption will exist until His return.
When the slaves asked the Sower in verse 28, “Do you want us, then, to go and gather them (the tares) up?” The Sower replied to them in verse 29, “No; lest while you are gathering up the tares, you may root up the wheat with them.” And in verse 30 he says, “Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Let God send out His mighty Angels in the day of His harvest to bind all those who seek to destroy His kingdom. Let them be gathered up into bundles and cast into the lake of fire. And the children of God will be safe in His barn.

Jesus has a reward for all who oppose Him.

Originally posted by ebo
What is the Church's role in our society?

Everywhere you turn there is a new church with a new doctrine. Everywhere you turn there is a tent set up preaching the holy gospel. There must be as many prophets as there are stars. Every day someone becomes a reverend doctor. No study, no significant works to warrant an honorary degree, yet they become honorary doctor of divinity. When and where will it all end?

Too many of the churches are nothing more than temples. The same kind of temple Jesus ransacked because it was indistinguishable from a market. The idols are all over the churches now. The pastors and priests and preachers adorn themselves in all kind of religious finery and regalia. Even as they decorate their bodies with the clothes of Judas, their mental and intellectual loyalty to money, women, power, and corruption continue unabated.

Most of these religious leaders need to be washed in the blood of the lamb. Most of these religious leaders see their flock simply as a meal ticket; a springboard to easy money and power. With the government's new bent, they see access to the Public Treasury. Churches should not be given one dime from the Public Treasury. The members of a church should sustain that church. If money has to flow, the churches should contribute money to the Public Treasury.

Oh I love to hear the preachers explain away what Jesus meant when he said it was harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it was for a camel to get through the eye of a needle. The first thing they tell you is that he did not say it was impossible. The next thing they tell you is that Jesus can work that miracle for you. Then they imply that the miracle of getting you and the camel through the eye of the needle can be gauranteed by hefty, regular tithing.

Tithe by giving money or resources to the Red Cross. Give to the Cancer Society. Give to the Children's emergency Hostel. Give to the Ranfurly Home for Children. "Whatever you do for the least of my brethren, so you do unto me". Give your money directly to the poor if you are inclined to give. Let them close down some of these wicked churches!

My brother it pains my heart to see how you as a young man would allow yourself to be used as an advocate for the Devil to discourage believers in Christ to think the way you do. Yes! The Church does have a role to play in society. Yes! there are many false prophets and false doctrines in our society to contend with. But, who are we to judge? Should we close down the church doors and stop the spreading of the word of God because some of us believe they are false and they are only interested in making money? God forbid. This practice did not just start happening, this was around for many years.

Should one have to go to a school of divinity of the world to be in a position to preach the word of God? I think not, for many preaches are call by God to do His work. Jesus chose twelve disciples, was he not betrayed and denied by two of them? None of us are perfect and this is why the Holy Bible asked that we study to show ourselves approved. Many of the issues that you are concern about the churches have already been spoken about in the Bible and these things must come to past. The comforter, which is the Holy Spirit left by Jesus, is here to lead us believers into all truth.

Though we are all entitled to voice our opinion on various issues in life, one should be very careful on making statements with regards to churches and the spreading of the word of God. Such negative statements can be looked at as blasphemy. This is a tool used by the devil to discourage believers in Christ to loose their faith in God and fall victim to the ways of the world. Do not allow him to use you in this way. There are many other issues of interest in the world to have a discussion on and debate. I pray that God will forgive you for this act and you refrain from it in the future…………….Roderick

Mr. ebo, i agree with Roderick.

'For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he'. You shouldn't think that way. Becareful, Let God judge, who are we to.

Until next time......

Roderick and Sha'bez, I agree with you both. When responding let's try not to be emotional and damn people to hell. We do not have that authority.

You skip over the points that I make and ignore that my comments are consistent with what Jesus said and did. Men make up doctrine and rules as we go along. Many of the rules have nothing to do with the gospel and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

So what if the church buildings close? Jesus used to meet in fields. Remember when he fed 5000? He was not in a building. Remember that where two or more are gathered in "My name", there I am in the midst of them. This is the true church. When people fellowship in harmony to explore and relate positively to each other and to God, we have the true church. As long as we stay positive on this website and unite to wish each other well we have a virtual church. We are gathered in his name.

Tell me what is wrong with responding directly to Jesus' instruction - "What you do unto to least of my brethren, so you do onto me"? What is wrong with that? Does it not make sense to use your God-given intelligence to direct the blessing the Lord has put in your care to those the Christ suggested you direct the resources to - "the least of his brethren: the poor, the sick, the downthrodden, the dispossessed, those without hope, those without love? Would you rather I give tithes to a sweethearting, bisexual, preacher who lives the high life? Surely this cannot be God's will! I prefer to give tithes to The Red Cross, The Ranfurly Home, The children's Emergency Hostel, The Cancer Society or some other cause that will truly and directly help the "least of my brethren". If that is blasphemy, then I am a blasphemer!

I persist that Jesus said and it is quite simple to understand - "It is harder for a rich man to get into heaven than it is for a camel to get through the eye of a needle". When it suits us we take the bible literally. When it does not suit us we take it figuratively. I believe God is just. I believe God gave us a sense of justice. I believe our sense of justice is in harmony with God's sense of justice. Pray and meditate on any issue and the truth will come from within you. Do not bow to the dogmas of earthly masters dressed up in fancy custumes!

Do you think it is better to build humungous buildings with fancy airconditioning systems and million dollar organs or feed the poor in our community? What would Jesus have done? Build the big building or feed the poor?

Jesus took the thief off the cross and welcomed him into heaven. We make a great fuss but all that is required of us is that we believe. And if we don't believe, does that mean we are going to burn in hell for all eternity? The answer simply is we do not know. But I do not think so!

Another thing that is amazing to me is why we think that all Muslims, Jews, Athiests, Agnostics, and people from other religions will burn in hell for all eternity! No matter how much you preach it, no matter who you qoute, I do not and cannot believe the God I serve would do something so evil. These are merely the stories men make up to terrorize and frighten others into believing or claiming to believe what we believe. God is not PETTY! God is bigger than that! It is time we try to be more like Christ instead of making Christ more like us!

Any organization accepting public resources should be made to account for those resources. That includes the churches. How is it that the church ends up being the property of an individual? How is it that father passes the church to his child? The actions of the "church" are desrtroying the church and leading to the establishment of the "true church".

The "true church" will be the body of people who love each other for no other reason than we all share this existence. The true church will share and care for each other. There are some examples springing up around the place now. We are seeing actions in some - a few traditional churches, that signal the coming of the "true church". We see people taking their resources and supplying the needs of other members of their communities. We see them providing food. We see them providing houses. We see them providing living instructions. We see the whole body increasing in wealth. Perhaps we will not see a rich man enter heaven but we may see a rich church entering heaven because the members will alter the reality of richness and poverty. If everyone has, then no one is "rich".

Please let's continue this communion because we have much to share with each other. Satan cannot exist where love reigns. So let's begin and end all our communications with a commitment to love one another. Instead of quoting scripture let's let our lives be a simple quote - " Whatever I do for the least of my brethren, so I do unto my God!"

Love all - Muslim, Jew, Christian, Hindu, Athiest, Agnostic. Love all!

I must say that it appears to me as if you have a personal issue with the churches in our land and maybe all over the world where money is collected. You are making it too obvious in your statements that either you are jealous or you feel that the people are being taken advantage of. There is nothing criminal in persons giving their tithes and free will offering to a church or any organization. If they believe they should give it to a dog or a cat that is their belief. The only issue to be derived from this act is ignorance. If it is not being given from the heart or in the proper way, (one tenth) which is to the honor and glory of God then it can be questioned from a Christian perspective. You must understand that the church is a body of people who decides what is done with the money or any donation given, not only the pastor.

No one should be in a position to tell anyone how he or she should go about paying his or her tithes or offering whether it is to a church or a charitable organization. This is between that person and their God. The triviality of this matter is of no interest to me unless one wish to be enlighten to the paying of tithes. Therefore I have written an article on the paying of tithes that may help you and others who wish to read about it and understand my point of view in this matter.

As for the other issues on heaven and hell, they are mentioned in the Holy Bible. If you are a Christian, you cannot believe in one portion of the bible and exclude the portions you wish to disbelieve. Do you believe the God whom you serve destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of SIN? If not, then I think we are serving different Gods. As you continue to debate some of the trivial issues of this world remember that no man knows the works of God so don’t even try. Just remember that His words WILL come to pass………………Roderick Mckenzie

The Paying Of Tithes
Tithes is the tenth part of produce or other incomes paid voluntarily or under the compulsion of law for the benefit of religious institutions, for the support of priests and pastors, and the relief of those in need. Due to different local circumstances, tithes can be derived from various sources of income. For example, secular and ecclesiastical tithes personal and real tithes - that is, tithes on income from personal trade, profession, or property. There are also tithes on fruits of the soil. In days of old tithes were based on the value of the crop or animals taxed. This type of tithing was common to substitute a money payment for payment in goods.

The very first indication of tithe paying to God in the Bible is found in the book of Genesis chapter 4 verses 2-7, which reads, “And she again bare his brother Able. And Able was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in the process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground and offering unto the Lord. And Able, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Able and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”

The scripture further indicates that because Cain was jealous of Able because God had accepted his generous offering, he killed him. Since Cain killed Able, God cursed him and God told him that his brother’s blood cried from the ground and that Cain was cursed from the earth, which had opened her mouth to receive his brother’s blood from his hand. Whenever Cain tilled the ground it would not henceforth yield her strength to him and a fugitive and a vagabond he should be in the earth. My brothers and sisters, one of wisdom can see the spirit of Cain has passed on through the generations in many persons in this earth as can be seen today. Many persons are being killed because of their blessings from God and jealousy from their fellow man.

The paying of tithes is not a popular topic to discuss even for some Christians. Though many in the world do the principle of paying tithes on a daily base, it is not always seen that way. This is attributed to Ecclesiastes chapter 11 verse 1 which states, “Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.” Every day monies and other material items are given to poor persons, charitable organizations and persons who may just need a helping hand. The persons, or the organizations giving items or money, from a world standpoint are usually doing it for a favor in return, a kind deed for the community or even as a tax right off from the Government in some countries. Whatever earnings are being given out, God must receive his tenth first, for it is holy unto Him and it must come from the heart specifically for Him.

The confusion for many Christians in this venture is misinterpretation. Many Christians live above their means by going to the extent of borrowing money to pay their tithes and sowing seed offering, with the concept of “proving God”, in expectation of receiving monitory and material gains. Yes! God did promise to supply your need, not your want. God’s blessings are not always material gain or money. One can also be blessed with a spiritual gift to be able to bring others to Christ. The power of tithing should not be used for God to fulfill a financial or material agenda. God already knows our needs. So many Christians are in debt running after material blessings that many are unable to pay the one tenth of their earnings, therefore being looked at as robbers. Malachi chapter 3 verses 8-10, “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and in offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the store house, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that shall not be room enough to receive it.” When one robs God of His tithes he puts himself in debt and will not receive his blessing from Him. The same happens as interest grows when one refuse to make a loan payment to the bank.
Governments use the word tax in collecting money for the running of a country. Churches use that word tithes to maintain itself and to spread the word of God for the edification of His kingdom. In some countries tithing has been abolished and has been gradually replaced by other forms of taxation. The paying of tithes is one of the commandments of God given to Moses for the children of Israel in Mount Sinai as mentioned in the book of Leviticus chapter 27 verse 30-34. Many Christian denominations do not believe in tithing with the notion such Christian practices have been done away with in the Christian faith. Many persons feel uncomfortable putting money in the church due to allegations of mismanagement and misappropriation of funds. As Christians such thoughts should be unthinkable, for God watches over what belongs to Him and also those who are in charge of what is His.

There is a question in the minds of many with regards to persons who spread the word of God setting a price to do the same. The Apostle Paul said in first Corinthians chapter 9 verses 16-19, “For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; Yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel! For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me. What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel. For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.” Preachers, teachers and all others responsible for the spreading of the word of God are compensated through the paying of tithes and free will offering. There is no need for congregational members to go on the streets begging with sponsor sheets for the Church building fund and other church needs if the members are paying their tithes on time.
In closing, man has invented many ways to improve one’s personal economic empowerment. There are various institutions to teach one the different concepts of investing for the future and becoming financially stable. There are books to teach one how to get rich quick, all in hopes for a better more comfortable life. Persons are investing in stocks, bonds, ‘asue’ and other mutual funds to attain financial and material gain. I pray that having been educated on the ‘paying of tithes’ one can invest in a spiritual blessing from God, through the paying of tithes and not depend on the blessings that man has to offer. God bless you all.
Roderick R. Mckenzie
Roddie30@hotmail.com

My beloved friend I greet you in the name of God with love. I can see you speak from your heart so I will respect your opinion. Some may think some of the things you think are trivial, but I know what you think is important to you and perhaps to many others. They are your opinions and I respect that.

Everyone has an opinion. That makes us neither right no wrong but means we think about things differently. The problem comes when we start demeaning the opinions of each other or trying to label them, or cast them aside as trivial. I am not God. I may be wrong! But I have opinions!

You say and I quote: "You must understand that the church is a body of people who decides what is done with the money or any donation given, not only the pastor."

If this were true, there would be very little problem with churches. Unfortunately, and this is too clear by events that have made it into the news, that a very few members of the churches decide what happens with the money. Most of the members do not know what happens to the money or how much money there is. My point is that the money should be accounted for - surely you do not object to accounting for the contributions to the church.

When I speak about the churches' behaviour, I think I made it clear that I was not speaking of all churches. I gave some examples of how some churches are in fact looking out for the least of Jesus' brethren. Surely you do not object to that!

It is equally clear that some church leaders - many in fact, are using their superior intellectual and communication skills to exploit the weaker members of the church. We can list many examples of this. Surely you are not defending these people. For it is clear that these people - people who behave like I described, are operating churches for the money, for profit, for financial gain and not for the good of God's people.

You say and I quote: "No one should be in a position to tell anyone how he or she should go about paying his or her tithes or offering whether it is to a church or a charitable organization. This is between that person and their God."

This is your opinion. I respect it but I do not agree with it. If you can opine what people should not be able to do, why can't I opine what people should be able to do and should do. Paying tithes is not between the person and their God. God does not need tithes. He never did. God always took care of his church! He always will!

You say and I quote: "As you continue to debate some of the trivial issues of this world remember that no man knows the works of God so don’t even try."

I agree with you that no man, including you, knows the works of God! The nature of man however is to try to determine the nature of God. Some of us busy ourselves setting up as interpreters for God or even demi-gods. The truth of the matter is WE DO NOT KNOW! RELIGION IS BASED ON FAITH! IF WE KNEW, THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR FAITH. The base of all religion is belief, faith. Hence all religion is founded on ignorance which requires that we believe things which may conflict with common sense. Religion requires we believe the impossible! That my friend is faith!

Now on a personal level - why am I going on about tithing and what to do with it. I have seen my people exploited for so long and I think it is wrong to use religion to steal from poor people! Too many people are exploited in the name of God! If you think this is okay, I am sorry - we have to agree to disagree. Just as we try to prevent people being stolen from in all other arenas in society, so too we should (in my humble opinion) try to prevent people being exploited by religious shysters!

I depart from you with continued love and respect. I sense you seek more light. When you have only the moon, you cannot explain the glory of the light from the sun. As bright as the sun is, there are brighter stars! So continue to seek more light. The Grand Architect of the Universe arranged for a series of brighter lights to promote our advancement to him.

Originally posted by ebo
My beloved friend I greet you in the name of God with love. I can see you speak from your heart so I will respect your opinion. Some may think some of the things you think are trivial, but I know what you think is important to you and perhaps to many others. They are your opinions and I respect that.

Everyone has an opinion. That makes us neither right no wrong but means we think about things differently. The problem comes when we start demeaning the opinions of each other or trying to label them, or cast them aside as trivial. I am not God. I may be wrong! But I have opinions!

You say and I quote: "You must understand that the church is a body of people who decides what is done with the money or any donation given, not only the pastor."

If this were true, there would be very little problem with churches. Unfortunately, and this is too clear by events that have made it into the news, that a very few members of the churches decide what happens with the money. Most of the members do not know what happens to the money or how much money there is. My point is that the money should be accounted for - surely you do not object to accounting for the contributions to the church.

When I speak about the churches' behaviour, I think I made it clear that I was not speaking of all churches. I gave some examples of how some churches are in fact looking out for the least of Jesus' brethren. Surely you do not object to that!

It is equally clear that some church leaders - many in fact, are using their superior intellectual and communication skills to exploit the weaker members of the church. We can list many examples of this. Surely you are not defending these people. For it is clear that these people - people who behave like I described, are operating churches for the money, for profit, for financial gain and not for the good of God's people.

You say and I quote: "No one should be in a position to tell anyone how he or she should go about paying his or her tithes or offering whether it is to a church or a charitable organization. This is between that person and their God."

This is your opinion. I respect it but I do not agree with it. If you can opine what people should not be able to do, why can't I opine what people should be able to do and should do. Paying tithes is not between the person and their God. God does not need tithes. He never did. God always took care of his church! He always will!

You say and I quote: "As you continue to debate some of the trivial issues of this world remember that no man knows the works of God so don’t even try."

I agree with you that no man, including you, knows the works of God! The nature of man however is to try to determine the nature of God. Some of us busy ourselves setting up as interpreters for God or even demi-gods. The truth of the matter is WE DO NOT KNOW! RELIGION IS BASED ON FAITH! IF WE KNEW, THERE WOULD BE NO NEED FOR FAITH. The base of all religion is belief, faith. Hence all religion is founded on ignorance which requires that we believe things which may conflict with common sense. Religion requires we believe the impossible! That my friend is faith!

Now on a personal level - why am I going on about tithing and what to do with it. I have seen my people exploited for so long and I think it is wrong to use religion to steal from poor people! Too many people are exploited in the name of God! If you think this is okay, I am sorry - we have to agree to disagree. Just as we try to prevent people being stolen from in all other arenas in society, so too we should (in my humble opinion) try to prevent people being exploited by religious shysters!

I depart from you with continued love and respect. I sense you seek more light. When you have only the moon, you cannot explain the glory of the light from the sun. As bright as the sun is, there are brighter stars! So continue to seek more light. The Grand Architect of the Universe arranged for a series of brighter lights to promote our advancement to him.

Well my brother, I see you feel that it is your calling to stop the exploitation of the poor and weak in our land. You keep up the good work……………Roderick

Roderick i have been reading your conversations with ebo and i must say that you are right on track i will not respond to him personally because he seemed set in his way.I noticed he keeps talking about opinions but when you give your life to Christ the only opinion you have is the word of God and God tells us in Malachi to bring all the tithes into the store house.

He is questioning God Almighty if he prefers to give his money to the red cross or the salvation or whatever charity he choose then i guess that is what his bible teaches. He needs prays so his eyes can be opened. If he read the book of Revelation he would see that hell fire will burn forever and remember one thing, God is not sending anyone to hell, they choose to go there themselves by rejecting eternal life.

Hell was not made for man but for the devil and angels. He also needs to understand the principal of blessing and cursing, you will never be able to help everyone in need becuase there are people who have been cursed and no matter what you do to try and help them it does not work.

Jesus Christ was very clear when he said whatever you do for the least of his brethren so you do unto him.

How much clearer can you get?

The poor, the weak, the dispossessed - they are the least of his brethren. There are some churches that are doing good things in the community. I commend them. Too many churches are busy exploiting the ignorance of the masses and fleecing them of their meager earnings. If this is what you support, I can only say that I will love and pity you while you burn in the eternal fire called hell.

God gave you a brain to think. Common sense tells you what is going on in this country and this world is wrong! Jesus said help the poor and the weak. He did not say help them if they are not cursed. Who cursed them?

Many of us were poor and were helped by other people or by the system and today we can bear labels other than poor. Now it is our turn to assist those who may be less fortunate.

I like how so many skirt around the instructions of Jesus Christ when it comes to wealth. I will make it very clear. Wealth is for using, not for storing. If God blessed you with great wealth, you should be using it to improve the earth, humanity, and the least of your brethren. And guess what, you will gain even more wealth! Too many of the "high priests" in these churches are too wicked and mean. How can you be wearing a $10,000.00 diamond ring when you have tithing members of your congregation going without meals? Where is your conscience? Sell the ring and buy food for those tithing members! Listen to the call of God!

I say give to the Red Cross because the Red Cross has a direct link to dealing with the poor and needy on a daily basis. They have a food program - meals on wheels. How can you suggest the hungry children, and the poor old people they are feeding are cursed? That kind of thinking is what keeps us third world.

Through our education systems, through our churches, through our family and social relationships we must reject poverty and work to eliminate it. There are enough resources on this earth to eliminate poverty. It may be difficult because many of the efforts at eliminating poverty run into the strong force of corrupt greed.

The church is the Bahamas is viewed as a business. If you are lazy and a good talker you can make money by starting a church. Too many of these churches have no direction, no purpose but to build bigger buildings which they register in the pastor's name (and he wills it to his children), and enrich the men and women on the pulpit. They select verses from the bible to shout into the minds of their mentally weaker brethren to control them so they tithe to support their wicked lifestyles. Time is longer than rope. You can do fool as much as you want but not for as long as you want. Old age, sickness. and death will force a change.

Wickedness and injustice in our institutions could well be the cause of all the crime we have in society. Too many people with suppressed consciences are running society. The leaders of the church can shout when one government does something but are quiet when the other does the same thing. The evil must be burned out of the churches.

You may call this a prophecy or you can accept it as a simple prediction - the day will soon come when churches will be deconsecrated and the buildings used for productive purposes. People will see that all those who claim to be called were not called, at least not by God.

Let me give you an example of the wickedness in the churches, the lack of caring and vision: When the hurricane was impending Bishop Niel Ellis volunteered his church to be used as a hurricane shelter. He said not to worry about messing up the new carpet. Go upstairs if necessary. The Golden Gates Assembly was long established as a hurricane center. Very few other churches stepped forward. What does that tell you about them? How much do they care about their poor tithing members who sustain the church?

People will soon be able to discern who is true and who are in it for the money. By your actions you shall be known.

Sugarbear, how do you know who is cursed? That poor person you think is cursed may be a blessing for you from God. Someone put in your path so you can help them and in the process enrich your soul.

I admit I need prayers because I am indeed ignorant on many things and cannot be arrogant in the tiny amount of knowledge I have been exposed to. I do not claim to know God's will, his purpose or how he set up schemes. I trust that the little knowledge God exposed me to thus far is what he intended for me to use. If he knew I needed more he would have given it to me. This conversation with you may be God's way of enriching my knowledge bank.

Faith is an opinion so strong that the person who has faith accepts as fact things he has no real reason for accepting as fact. You know nothing directly of God. Like the rest of us you have been taught things and you believe it. You have studied, read, and heard things and you believe them. We all have opinions. We may all be wrong. To have faith means that you do not actually know!. If you knew, there would be no need for faith!

This is my first submission as the co-moderator of the Church Issues forum. Over the past few weeks, I have been reading the posts to this forum. EBO, I've read your comments (this and previous ones) about the church in the Bahamas in general, and as a Pastor (for a bit more than 12 years), with much regret I have to agree that most (not all) of your commentary is fair and accurate. In general, the church in the Bahamas is in a poor state. However, you will agree that the counterfeit is evidence that the genuine does exist. Not all churches will be guilty of your charges.

You seem to have a genuine heart for the poor and that is a good thing. Scripture teaches that God defends the cause of the poor and personally deals with those who oppress them.

While the desire to get rid of poverty is noble and from the point of view of the resources of the world it is possible, it will not happen totally before Jesus returns. Jesus Himself said that the poor will always be with us. You see EBO, the primary reason for poverty, stemming back to the fall of man in the Garden of Eden is disobedience and sin. This is not to say that all poor people are disobedient or sinners. However, people are poor either because of their own bad choices (which would be a kind of sin because strictly speaking, sin is to miss the mark) or the oppression of others. Having said that, I would also say that much can be done and I believe that much will be done. While churches can and should be more conscious and helpful to the poor, these handouts might ensure that people do not go to bed hungry but will hardly do anything to put a dent into poverty.

If we will tackle poverty, we have to look at some of the institutional reasons for poverty. EBO, from reading your posts, you seem to be well informed. Therefore, I believe that you will agree that the political/economic system of most nations (ours included) is designed for the wealthy and against the poor. They are designed to even ensure that the gap widens. For example, here in the Bahamas, by and large the wealthy have always enjoyed political power. Therefore, they primarily consider their own interests in governance and policy making. For example, take some time to consider rates of duties on products. The duties are interestingly higher on goods that the poor tend to buy. For example, sugarized juices (which many poor people buy because of the “low” price) attract a duty of 65% whereas pure juices which the wealthier among us tend to buy attracts a duty of 25% (I believe these numbers are still correct, although I have not recently checked.). This would be a very interesting study so that they poor can be informed of how they bear the highest tax burden in our country.

Even with FTAA looming, the clearest position we have heard from this and the former government is that there will be NO income tax. Everything else about FTAA is hazy. Why is this? Clearly, the poor pay the bulk of our taxes with our current import tax system. The sad thing is that they do not know. It would be a very interesting study to compare the tax burden of a person making $1,000 per month with someone making $10,000 per month. Even more interesting would be to compare it to those who have 7 figure incomes. The wealthy are able to save and consolidate their excess earnings and pass them on perpetually and widen the poverty gap.



EBO, I believe that the most significant thing that can be done to begin to address the poverty situation is to change our taxation system away from import taxes to a flat income tax (everybody pays the same percentage). An exemption should be given to low income persons at a level that is determined based on a poverty baseline. For example, the cost of housing and living would directly decrease for the poor because they would pay no or little taxes and those who are above the poverty income level will be pay more according to their income but the same percentage.

EBO I do not consider myself poor (By the way, what I have did not come from any church. I have never received any kind of salary or support from my church. I make a living by “tent making” like the Apostle Paul) and I realize that a flat tax would result in me paying more taxes. However, it is the fairest system of taxation.

Regarding the tithing issue, I understand your anger when you see church leaders who are greedy for money. However, EBO, if you agree with tithing and Scripture clearly teaches it applicability, then you have to do it God’s way. You do not have a choice about giving it to Red Cross because God clearly told us to take it to the storehouse which correctly understood is the local church which you belong to. I believe is that if there is abuse of finances in a church, the correct response is to leave the one that you are a part of and prayerfully find a church where financial abuse does not take place and become a part of that body of believers.

While there are other issues like educational reform, I trust that this perspective helps to give another angle on the complex issue of poverty.

I will end by saying that the issues of the poor will only be addressed when they are in mass educated about them and are significantly represented in parliament.

Originally posted by roddie
My brother it pains my heart to see how you as a young man would allow yourself to be used as an advocate for the Devil to discourage believers in Christ to think the way you do.

So you actually think because he has a mind for himself and questions some things, that he is working for the devil. You need to grow up!

Originally posted by roddie
Do you believe the God whom you serve destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of SIN? …Roderick Mckenzie

were you there!?

Originally posted by sugarbear

He is questioning God Almighty if he prefers to give his money to the red cross or the salvation or whatever charity he choose then i guess that is what his bible teaches. He needs prays so his eyes can be opened. If he read the book of Revelation he would see that hell fire will burn forever and remember one thing, God is not sending anyone to hell, they choose to go there themselves by rejecting eternal life.

christianity is about doing good, the right thing, and helping others, so if I had $20 to give, I would give it to the red cross first also, as they need the money more than a church does. I can praise god if i wanted right here in my house, but I dont need to, I can simply pray to him, nice and quiet as God is God and will hear me no matter where I am.

If they want to pay money to the churches then thats fine too, its their money, not mine, but dont ask me to borrow any money after giving all your money to your church!