QUOTE]Gay people were around from ancient times (and I'm talking about before and during biblical times).[/QUOTE]

What? You really haven't taken the time out to read a Bible have you? Only God existed before biblical times. Homosexuality came about like every other bad thing after man sinned against God.

I don't have much time, but the one thing that struck me in your entire soliloquy was that above quoted text.
Please, humour me, only God existed before biblical times? I'm sorry but religious ppl need to strike a balance between creationism and evolution. You're saying that the bible which has been around approx. 3,000 yrs is the first thing EVER (absolutely NOTHING was around before it), when dinosaurs have been dated back MILLIONS of yrs.

Oh and plse don't say the scientists are wrong, go to a museum and SEE the bones for yourself.

Just please, please explain that to me.

Don't worry, all ppl ready for a something to think about (or not).
I'll be posting comments to all that stuff above in the coming days.

But PLEASE, Delroy ENLIGHTEN me!

Phazeme,

I can tell you so much about the beginning of this world just in the first chapter of Genesis.
You're saying that the bible which has been around approx. 3,000 yrs is the first thing EVER (absolutely NOTHING was around before it)
I am not saying that.
Biblical times are what are recorded in the Bible and those recordings date back to the beginning.
The word 'Genesis' is Hebrew for 'origin' when translated to English it means "the beginning." Not the beginning of God but the beginning of this world.
Please, humour me, only God existed before biblical times?
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.Genesis 1:1
I don't see any other name before Gods'.
dinosaurs have been dated back MILLIONS of yrs.

Scientist has no proof of the age dinosaurs or what killed them but there is enough evidence to show that the Dinosaurs died in the great flood of Noah.
The Bible says in Genesis 6:19 "And of every living thing of all flesh, you shall bring two of every Kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 "Of the birds after their kind , and of the animals after their kind , of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind , two of every kind shall come to you to keep them alive.

God never told Noah to bring every animal that was on the earth into the ark; He said two of every "kind" which means two of every kind of animal and birds. Obviously Dinosaurs were too big to live inside the ark with Noah and his family. How would they be fed for forty days and nights?
Komodo dragons have been linked to Dinosaurs along with other animals that exist today which means that all of their kind did not die.


I'm sorry but religious ppl need to strike a balance between creationism and evolution. Christians don't need to strike a balance between anything because God's word is truth and truth outweighs everything.

Who would you believe first, Man or God?

Someone anyone with an INKLING of rationality please stop Delroy stop Delroy now. The reason that dinosaurs aren't alive is that there was NOT ENOUGH ROOM IN THE ARK! *rotflmao*
OMG! Where were you educated? If you went to a private school, go back FIRST thing tomorrow morning and demand your money back, tell them that phazeme sent you and that they did and absolutely awful job in science and rational. If you went to a government school, I wouldn't even know what to do, but I can say this much 'the educational system fail you-- miserably'
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but to say that proof of the age of dinosaurs i.e. carbon dating is wrong is just beyond words. How can you say that?
I believe in God and I can live with myself and I know that I would be able to if I tried to live the life that was forced upon me, but I KNOW that dinosaurs existed. I believe that the story in Genesis is just that a story. I do believe in most of the laws of the bible, because they assist in living and society. But I believe in the original laws, not the laws that you've decided to follow because Paul said so. I hope you know that Paul and Jesus NEVER met.
But to say that homosexuality is wrong or hinders society because procreation is not possible in the traditional way is in my opinion not all that responsible. What about a man and a woman marrying when they know that one of them is infertile? They knowingly get into a marriage that they can not have children just like any homosexual couple.

The reason that dinosaurs aren't alive is that there was NOT ENOUGH ROOM IN THE ARK! I did not say that there wasn't enough room in the ark; I said that the dinosaurs were too big to maintain and it would make more sense to allow a smaller cousin of the dinosaur into the ark.
Where were you educated? If you went to a private school, go back FIRST thing tomorrow morning and demand your money back, tell them that phazeme sent you and that they did and absolutely awful job in science and rational. If you went to a government school, I wouldn't even know what to do, but I can say this much 'the educational system fail you-- miserably' I will not render evil for evil.
I attended C.C. Sweeting all my high school years which I now see to have been a blessing upon me only God could have given. Although invaluable; I never paid a dime for my education which still maintains me today. Government or Private, whatever school you went to failed you, whatever church you went to failed you, your home failed you, but I would like you to know that God always has the last say in any situation and He we never fail you.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but to say that proof of the age of dinosaurs i.e. carbon dating is wrong is just beyond words. How can you say that? How can I say that?
For thousands of years MAN believed that the earth was flat. One week they tell me on CNN that coffee helps prevent cancer and the next week they say it promotes it. You choose who you want to believe.
I believe in God and I can live with myself and I know that I would be able to if I tried to live the life that was forced upon me Are you trying to tell me something?
If you feel uncomfortable speaking in this open area we can talk through the private message system or email. You can trust me.
but I KNOW that dinosaurs existed I believe that they existed also and I never said that they didn't. I believe that the story in Genesis is just that a story. The Bible says in 2 Peter 1:20-21 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."
If you believe that the Flood was just a story then what about Noah's children whose bloodline led directly to Abraham and from Abraham to David and from David to Jesus who was called the Son of David. Do you see how Satan tries to deceive us? If I believed that the flood never happened then I must believe that Jesus never was born. Every letter, every story, every song in the Bible is there for a reason and if you remove one then the whole thing falls apart.
But I believe in the original laws, not the laws that you've decided to follow because Paul said so. I hope you know that Paul and Jesus NEVER met. This statement just tells me even more that you do not know anything about the Bible. Paul and Christ did meet on the road to Damascus Acts 9:3-6. Jesus fulfilled the original Law because He was the Ultimate sacrifice and through His sacrifice we have all been given Grace and through Grace we can be forgiven of our sins. Without Grace the original Law would condemn us to hell without an appeal.
Do you understand? If you choose to live under the original law then you reject your own appeal and condemn yourself to hell. Paul never wrote anything under his own authority but he always called himself A Bound Servant of Jesus Christ.
But to say that homosexuality is wrong or hinders society because procreation is not possible in the traditional way is in my opinion not all that responsible. When it comes to the Word of God opinions don't really matter, mines or yours and the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong. Procreation isn't the only thing that homosexuality hinders, there is a list of damages that it causes which you can find in the Bible if you take the time to read it.
What about a man and a woman marrying when they know that one of them is infertile? They knowingly get into a marriage that they can not have children just like any homosexual couple. I told you to read your Bible carefully. Let me use the example of Sarah and Abraham. They had two things going against them, they were both over the age of having children pulse Sarah was barren. But they believed in God and had a child. The same can happen to any married couple who has faith in God. Not homosexuals. God will never grant homosexuals the gift of children and only an evil and opposing world does that in an attempt to destroy the purpose of God, which we see happening today.

Lets not talk about dinosaurs anymore, I want to talk about the real reason you came here.

Things are really heating up in here. Let's see if I can help.

Delroy and Phazeme: It is not helpful to insult each other. We all have our limitations. Let's focus at the topic we are discussing and appreciate that we are all from one tribe. Loving each other in spite or because of our differences must be the order of the day.

From the Christian point of view, forget all the name calling and damning to hell. Since Christian is supposed to be Christ-like, let's try to approach each other the way Christ would have approached us. With love. I am certain Christ would not have approached Phazeme with condemnation but with understanding, open arms of love.

Phazeme please remember that all religion is based on ignorance. Religion requires you believe things you do not and cannot know to a higher degree than you believe things that you can personally evidence. It is called faith. Religion is faith-based. We cannot prove recent history so it is far more difficult to prove ancient history. Most times we can prove what did not happen. It is far more difficult to prove what did happen.

Evolution is real. Evolution can be proven by observance and experimentation. Evolution can be proven by research on discovered animal and plant remnants. Carbon-dating is a well-established scientific tool which few knowledgeable religious leaders will reject.

A Jehovah's witness named John said to me the other day that the fact that he can think, and the fact that he can observe the things around him shows him evidence of God. I agree. We may not have the story completely right, there is lots of evidence of this, but there is also overwhelming evidence that God exists. One problem we face is man trying to establish himself as "Assistant God". If God is powerful enough to send his own son, I am confident he can communicate his will and intentions effectively to each of us. I am confident that he has. This is a subject for another place though.

In this thread, let's focus on the topic of homosexuality. Phazeme you are critical to our discussion because you are the only person in this discussion who has admitted to practicing homosexual activity and enjoying it. The rest of us are on the outside looking in and can only assume things and make uninformed judgments. Our culture and conditioning has inculcated us with emotional and psychological barriers to the concept of homosexuality.

What I am still trying to work out is the naturallness of homosexuality. You can look at some children and see they have a different sexual orientation than their gender suggests. They seem predisposed to be gay. All through nature there are gay animals. From this observation, I would say that homosexuality has a natural function. Instead of rejecting homosexuality without thought we need perhaps to determine what the prime natural function of homosexuality is so we can appreciate why it exists and perhaps stop trying to destroy something that might cause the rest of us to be destroyed in the process. If we understand homosexuality fully, homosexuals may be less inclined to try to convert "straight" people to their orientation.

Most of our homophobia is rooted in the fear that we might be homosexual ourselves or that a powerful homosexual may convert us to practice homosexuality. When we reject homosexuality, we may be rejecting a part of ourselves; a part that we try to keep submerged. Bringing homosexuality out in the open may be more threatening to us "straight" people than to homosexuals.

Is there a test that can be done to determine the proclivity of someone to be gay? Are there physical differences between gays and straights?

Until next time let's keep love at the heart of our discussion. I have gay friends that I love. I love them not in spite of their gayness. I just love them. Some of them are family. I cannot change them and I would not attempt to change them. I wish I understood them.

Be careful who you hate. According to Chris Rock, whoever you hate becomes a part of your family!

Things are really heating up in here. Let's see if I can help.
No you can't help!
You're only distracting me from answering some important questions that Phazeme has about her life.
Delroy and Phazeme: It is not helpful to insult each other.
Show me one line in my posts where I insulted anyone.
From the Christian point of view, forget all the name calling and damning to hell. Since Christian is supposed to be Christ-like, let's try to approach each other the way Christ would have approached us. With love. I am certain Christ would not have approached Phazeme with condemnation but with understanding, open arms of love.
Showing love is to be caring, honest and patient which I express throughout my posts.
You only want to find out why she does what she do; I am telling her where to find her answers.
I think that I love Phazeme allot more than you do and deep down she knows it.
Phazeme please remember that all religion is based on ignorance.
That is not true.
To believe in noting is a religion within itself but to believe in the one true God and follow Him is more than a religion; its understanding life.
Religion requires you believe things you do not and cannot know to a higher degree than you believe things that you can personally evidence. It is called faith.
I really understand what you are trying to say here but let me tell you what faith is.
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Where can you find the substance of things hoped for?
Where is the evidence of things that you cannot see?
Let me answer those questions.
Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
The only way that you can have faith is through hearing the Word of God being preached to you by the Holy Spirit when you read the Bible or through men when they preach it. The Bible contains the only substance of things hoped for by man and that is eternal life. It also contains the only evidence of things not seen which is the glorious Kingdom of God.

Evolution is real. Evolution can be proven by observance and experimentation. Evolution can be proven by research on discovered animal and plant remnants. Carbon-dating is a well-established scientific tool which few knowledgeable religious leaders will reject.
That not true.
Planes and computers are well-established tools also but they still crash.
God created this entire universe in less than a week. How long did it take men to invent the wheel?
Do you know that it is easier on the brain to believe in the Bible than it is to believe in anything else?
One problem we face is man trying to establish himself as "Assistant God". If God is powerful enough to send his own Son, I am confident he can communicate his will and intentions effectively to each of us. I am confident that he has.
God gave us that job to be an "Assistant" to Him which is a privilege for people who aren't worthy enough to even tie His sandals. He did this not for His benefit but ours; because God doesn't need our help and through us assisting Him we will gain wisdom. Who knows the ways of a boss better than His employees?
In this thread, let's focus on the topic of homosexuality. Phazeme you are critical to our discussion because you are the only person in this discussion who has admitted to practicing homosexual activity and enjoying it. The rest of us are on the outside looking in and can only assume things and make uninformed judgments. Our culture and conditioning has inculcated us with emotional and psychological barriers to the concept of homosexuality.
What?
Speak for yourself.
I don't have any emotional or psychological barriers and I am sure that allot of other Bahamians don't either.
What I am still trying to work out is the naturallness of homosexuality.
Keep trying.
You can look at some children and see they have a different sexual orientation than their gender suggests. They seem predisposed to be gay.
Don't let your eyes deceive you.
Children live what they learn. If a child is judged by the way they appear then they will behave that way. If you tell a boy from birth that he is a girl and he is treated as one then he will believe that he is.
Most of our homophobia is rooted in the fear that we might be homosexual ourselves or that a powerful homosexual may convert us to practice homosexuality. When we reject homosexuality, we may be rejecting a part of ourselves; a part that we try to keep submerged. Bringing homosexuality out in the open may be more threatening to us "straight" people than to homosexuals.
What?
Again I say; Speak for Yourself.

Now Phazeme, if we could clear our minds from all unrighteousness and talk about the real reason you came here.

If I knew everything, I would be God.
If I was always right, I would be God.
If I knew the future, I would be God.
I am not God!

I just saw the result of research on gay sheep on CNN. Studies indicate gay rams have an enlarged section of the hypothalmus which is not present in "straight" sheep. Delroy I emailed it to you so you can study it and see what you think. Phazeme and others, you can find it on cnn.com and do a search for homosexual sheep. Otherwise the url is below.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/11/05/science.sheep.reut/index.html

Delroy I know you believe you have a more direct hookup with God than the rest of us but that arrogance can be an error. God gave humans the ability to think for a reason. If you check the bible you will note in Proverbs that the Bible defines a fool as one who avoids knowledge. Anyone who knows everything can learn nothing.

You say I cannot help. I do not believe you can convince Phazeme of anything. She has a strong and clear mind. She has excellent reasoning skills. The forces needed to convert her are greater than you or I can muster. I accept her as she is - a child of God. According to my limited knowledge of the bible she is a sinner just like you and me.

How am I distracting you from answering some important questions about Phazeme's life? You know as little about Phazeme's life as I do. The difference is you are trying to judge her. You must remember that this is your website and you can easily banish me or Phazeme from the site. On this website you are "God!"

I feel it was a little insulting when you said and I quote "This statement just tells me even more that you do not know anything about the Bible." Phazeme is right about the flood. From my reading of Genesis there was no whole world flood. Genesis is a story about a family tree and incidents that occurred in different generations. I too believe that Genesis is just that, a story.

Contrary to all the shouting, there are four essentials to being a Christian:

1. To believe Jesus Christ was the son of God.
2. To believe Jesus was born of a virgin.
3. To believe Jesus died for our sins.
4. To believe Jesus arose from the dead.

Tell me which of these four you can prove.

If you cannot prove it, and you believe it, you accept it on faith! Since you do not actually know, you are ignorant like the rest of us even though you may pretend to know everything. Hence we are back to my point - religion is based on ignorance! We believe. We have faith. If you know for sure you have no need for faith. Thomas did not know for sure so he wanted to see and touch Jesus' wounds. He was there. He saw Jesus' miracles and knew what he was capable of. You were not there and are quoting from a translated and interpreted book from another culture and a couple thousand years removed. You cannot know! You, like the rest of us, can only believe.

There are some other aspects of philosophy we can get into but let's create a separate thread for that if you wish. Here we can continue, with your permission, the discussion on homosexuality!?

Let me direct this question to you because somethng you said indicates you might have some experience. Have you ever had a homosexual experience? Does what Phazeme say disturb you? You said and I quote, "I don't have any emotional or psychological barriers and I am sure that a lot of other Bahamians don't either." To my thinking if you do not have any barriers to homosexuality, you could very well be gay. I do not think so from what I know of you, but some closets are more secure than others.

I have barriers to the concept of engaging in homosexual acts. It makes me want to puke. But this I realize is probably the result of conditioning, being raised in a strongly heterosexual family with macho brothers and friends. In my day it was a cardinal sin to be homosexual. People were attacked for being gay. Ignorance was the order of the day.

Things started to change when I started seeing more gay people, seeing they were in most cases very decent people, and then having gay friends and family. I remember all Chinese used to look alike until I got Chinese friends. All gays were doomed to hell until I got gay friends.

If we have nothing positive to say to gays, then at least let's not judge them. Let's leave that to the almighty who will also judge us. And in all our deliberations let's remember that we are all ignorant about a lot more than we are knowledgeable about. Admission of ignorance is the first opportunity to learn.

Where do you find these stuff?
Shall we do the same things that animals do?
There are some animals that howl at the moon when it's full. Do you want us to do that also?
If we compare ourselves to animals we are in serious trouble.
What animals do belongs in the animal kingdom and we are not apart of it.
I will say again.
We were created in the image of God. Genesis 1:27
Delroy I know you believe you have a more direct hookup with God than the rest of us but that arrogance can be an error.
I have a direct hookup with the Bible and you can also.
God gave humans the ability to think for a reason.
Yes and a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
If you check the bible you will note in Proverbs that the Bible defines a fool as one who avoids knowledge.
I think you missed out the first part of that verse.
Here it is entirely: Proverbs 1:7"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools (people who don't fear God) despise wisdom and instruction." To fear God is to obey His commandments and true wisdom comes from God.
According to my limited knowledge of the bible she is a sinner just like you and me.
"Let the week say I am strong and let the poor say I am rich." I was born in sin but because of Jesus I am now a new creature. I have been wash by the blood of the lamb.

How am I distracting you from answering some important questions about Phazeme's life. You know as little about Phazeme's life as I do. The difference is you are trying to judge her.
Where did I judge anyone in the forum?
I am pointing her to the Bible and you are sending her to CNN.
You must remember that this is your website and you can easily banish me or Phazeme from the site. On this website you are "God!"
This site is for Bahamians and everyone has the freedom to speak here. I only commented on this topic because Phazeme said something about my belief that was not true. Banning you or her will defeat the purpose of this site and I; letting questions go unanswered will do the same.
I feel it was a little insulting when you said and I quote "This statement just tells me even more that you do not know anything about the Bible."
How is that an insult? She attacked the authenticity of the Bible and to do that you must have at least read it fully. This is not just about Phazeme but about truth.
Phazeme is right about the flood. From my reading of Genesis there was no whole world flood. Genesis is a story about a family tree and incidents that occurred in different generations. I too believe that Genesis is just that a story.
If you believe that then that is your right. I have already explained that subject.
You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Contrary to all the shouting, there are four essentials to being a Christian:

1. To believe Jesus Christ was the son of God.
2. To believe Jesus was born of a virgin.
3. To believe Jesus died for our sins.
4. To believe Jesus arose from the dead.

Tell me which of these four you can prove.
I don't have to prove anything, God is my defense. The Bible says in Philippians 2:10 "That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth, and of those under the earth."
One day God will prove all things.
If you cannot prove it, and you believe it, you accept it on faith! Since you do not actually know, you are ignorant like the rest of us even though you may pretend to know everything. Hence we are back to my point - religion is based on ignorance! We believe. We have faith. If you know for sure you have no need for faith. Thomas did not know for sure so he wanted to see and touch Jesus' wounds. He was there. He saw Jesus' miracles and knew what he was capable of. You were not there and are quoting from a translated and interpreted book from another culture and a couple thousand years removed. You cannot know! You, like the rest of us, can only believe.
That is not true.
The reason why most people believe in Jesus Christ today is because of what He is doing now in there lives. Christ's miracles did not stop in the Bible; it continues today. People are being healed, lives are being changed and Jesus is still alive. "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20:29
There are some other aspects of philosophy we can get into but let's create a separate thread for that if you wish. Here we can continue, with your permission, the discussion on homosexuality!? [QUOTE]
You don't need my permission to continue, this forum is just as much yours as it is mines.
[QUOTE]Let me direct this question to you because somethng you said indicates you might have some experience. Find it and allow me to correct you.
Have you ever had a homosexual experience?
No. And I never will.
Does what Phazeme says disturb you?
No. I have come across this type of attack before and I thank God for what I learned from it.
You said and I quote, "I don't have any emotional or psychological barriers and I am sure that allot of other Bahamians don't either." To my thinking if you do not have any barriers to homosexuality, you could very well be gay. I do not think so from what I know of you, but some closets are more secure than others. Ha! You think you know me. From what I am reading, you seem to be the one who is second guessing himself. Don't allow yourself to be deceived! So as a man thinks, that he is. My thoughts are geared towards God. Your thoughts are geared towards naturalizing homosexuality. If I allow the act of anyone else to effect me emotionally or psychologically then I am week in the mind.
I have barriers to the concept of engaging in homosexual acts. It makes me want to puke. But this I realize is probably the result of conditioning, being raised in a strongly heterosexual family with macho brothers and friends. In my day it was a cardinal sin to be homosexual. People were attacked for being gay. Ignorance was the order of the day.
Ignorance is still the order of the day because man is still ignoring Gods laws.

Pahzeme has the right to defend what she believes in and I have the right to defend what I believe in.
You do also.

Well I am a radical Christian but compare to some Christians that I know; I am soft.

Yes the bible has been "translated" again and again but everything there is still absolutely true.

For you to determine what you are reading is true or false you must have the Spirit of truth which only Jesus can give to you. “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me” John 15:26.

It’s not a matter of me wanting to believe anymore because the evidence is so clear that the Bible is all truth that even to a skeptic like me has to believe in it. I haven’t yet found a greater skeptic than myself, yet I can’t deny it. A wise man once quoted to me this scripture when I asked: “Why can’t people recognize the truth when they see it?” He said that “the god of this world (satan) has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ” 2 Corinthians 4:4.
The light of the gospel is in the Bible but only few can see it. Even physically blind people know the truth when they hear it and believe. Yet there are some who see in 20/20 vision, hear clearly and still don’t believe.

I also believe in science so the first testament has many fairy tales
You can’t believe in two things because that is impossible.
Jesus said that “No one can serve two master; for either he will hate the one and love the other”. Matthew 6:24

Jesus wasnt around in first Testament

Yes Jesus was around in first Testament.
This is one of the most powerful verses in the Bible and also my favorite; it might seem a little confusing but I will gladly explain it for you:
John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word was with God (the Father), and the Word was God.”
These extra verses seal it:
2 “ He (Jesus) was in the beginning with God.” 3 “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”
I have allot more evidence of the existence of Jesus in the Old Testament but I don’t want to fill this forum.
I hope that this sheds some light on this subject.

Peace on, back to TBN ;-)

another thing that i dont get is when people start quoting the bible, its like they cant think for themselves

My mind belongs to God.
Even Christ quoted the Bible to Satan.
I don't want to think for myself because my own mind limits me and if I answer the rest of your statement I would just be repeating myself.
I explained all of that in my earlier posts.

That’s before sin entered into the world.
Now all man's thoughts are evil.
So God gave us the Bible to show us how He meant for us to think.

All my thoughts are not evil anymore because when you become a true Christian your mind is renewed through the word of God which again is in the Bible.
1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."

Hallelujah! :dancer: Thank God for Jesus.

Allow me to quote myself:

I don't want to think for myself because my own mind limits me and if I answer the rest of your statement I would just be repeating myself.

Now where in there do you see "I don’t think for myself".
Ofcourse I think for myself but now my thoughts are influenced by God and not by Satan.

Yes we can close this subject but I just wanted to point out the truth.
If you want to resume going to church I can recommend a good one for you. Just drop me a PM if you’re interested.

Cheers :D

This discussion is very interesting. It would make an excellent case study in human psychology and sociology. What's perhaps more interesting than the subject itself is the communication among those discussing it.

I'm a homosexual. I've been trying to understand the kind of biblical rhetoric I hear from Delroy. He is what some would call a "strong Christian" but a tad confrontational. There is a biblical quote for any situation. I've not made up my mind if that's mere divine providence or convenient text-manipulation by man.

I must say I am quite disturbed by Delroy and Sha'bez's triteness and sarcasm. (Opinion!) I think Phazeme is quite mischievous. Perhaps she is only trying to stir debate, although I don't think it's that innocent. What's unfortunate is that Sha'bez and Delroy while crafting excellent arguments (which I suspect are rooted in genuine Christian love) have completely circumvented any effectiveness their posts may have had by taking an unnecessarily snide and pompous angle in delivering their message.

I think the Bible is fairly clear on the issue of homosexuality: It is against it. References are made to such effect in both testaments. We can argue over the subtleties in interpretation by translators, and I could argue over the origin and composition of the Bible, but I'd have to teach some history which I don't have the space nor time for.

First, let's not fool ourselves. This is not a discussion about homosexuality. If it were we'd find more persons like Ebo involved who want to learn and less provocative and defensive homosexuals (read: Phazeme) who want to teach. The discussion is polarized now into what is Christian and un-Christian. It is a stark (and bleak?) reality that with posts akin to those of Sha'bez and Delroy in this forum, what we will hear is what's right and what's wrong. They have resolved themselves to believe that salvation is spelled out in perfection in the Bible and our fate is a simple issue to work out - heaven or hell, your pick. I am certain, too, that the 9-11 hijackers were equally convinced that God and his Holy Q'uran had to be zealously defended from the opinions of those that sought to pervert it and suggest imperfection of it. It is only a matter of time before more Christians "see" the signs of the "end times" and despite its necessary occurrence to fulfill prophecy, in vain they will still seek to channel religious fervor to oppose "unrighteousness" as the Catholic church did during the Spanish Inquisition. The end result? Bloodshed, hatred and a one-way ticket to Gehenna. Work on your beam before touching your brother's speck. Did I miss the memo or aren't we all answerable to God for ourselves, not each other?

Let me get to the point: I don't understand 'strong Christians' and probably never will. They don't seem to understand homosexuals and probably never will. However, I don't think it is very productive or 'righteous' for anyone to be condescending to another due to a difference of opinion or belief. I find the back-and-forth of this thread just a bit discouraging. It's great we can talk about these things in an open and uninhibited forum. But while we're pushing our views to be accepted, let's not forget that we all have a responsibility (Christian or not) to love each other while doing so (in the way Christ demonstrated). It amazes me that Delroy and Sha'bez can quote the way they do and have no qualms about the self-serving and insensitive manner in which they do so. ('Don't use God's name if you don't know Him'???!)

I have resolved that when common ground can't be met to discuss an issue (like homosexuality) we must agree to disagree. If the very legitimacy of homosexuality is questioned, (and thus the premise of any discussion on the subject) how can two opponents hope to have a fair debate that will not sink into character attacks, belittlement and ridicule? I daresay they cannot.

After everyone's done holding up each other's arguments in order to tear them down and mock them, perhaps we can talk about homosexuality. Do we dare?

Welcome Rio,

First of all you chose the right subject to reply to being in your situation.
I don't consider myself to be a “strong Christian”, at least not yet but when I get there you and the world will know.

You are right about me being confrontational because I learned that from Christ.
However I never displayed any triteness or sarcasm in my posts. I never called Phazeme a "mischievous person" even though it appeared that she was; looks can be deceiving, thats your opinion of her ( I leave all name calling to God). If I was “self-serving and insensitive” like you said I am then I would have had many names for her and you.

I didn't come hear to argue over the topic of Homosexuality.
I only responded to this topic when Phazeme claimed that the Bible was not Authentic and I can't allow claims like that to go unanswered when I know the truth.

In response to your statements about “Bloodshed and hatred”: Don't be deceived, Satan has allot of his people out in the world doing wrong things in the name of Jesus in order to build up hate towards True Christians. Let me use the example of the Child Molestation cases in the U.S; there are many genuine, God fearing Priests within the Catholic church but the sin of a few destroyed the credit of many. You see Satan is a great deceiver and he has deceived many persons into believing only in the things that are not true. He has placed false Christians among the Genuine ones ( read the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13:24 ) in an attempt to destroy the church.

You say that you don't understand “strong Christians” but I believe that this is just temporary for you. I do understand homosexuals but what I don't understand is how someone can tell me what Christ demonstrated and still choose to take a next road in life away from the one that He directed us to walk. I am sure that the answer to that question is somewhere in the Bible but I haven't come across it as yet.

Sha'bez only spoke what came from the Bible like I did so all you are doing is directing your accusations towards God and not us.

If you want to be a Homosexual thats your choice but don't accuse the the Bible of being false and my belief of being based on a fairytale like some have done here. My answer to anyone who opposes God is found in Philippians 2:10 “That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
You see it doesn't really matter who believe or don't believe now because soon everyone will know the truth ( including you ).

My faith and courage is not based on sand or dust but stone and on stone that cannot be broken. I didn't get the truth laying down and having it fed to me, I had to go out and find it. God said in Proverbs 8:17 that "those who seek Me diligently will find Me". I know God no matter what Satan tells you. He knows God also.

Please don't confuse my posts to be anything negative or personal towards you or anyone else because sometimes it may appear that way but if I was speaking to you in person I am sure that you wont feel that way.

I welcome you here to this forum and I am sure that it was God who guided you here just like He did with Phazeme and you will not leave unanswered also.

God bless.