Can anyone be a headliner?

[Vicky]

Hi Bahamas Issues can anyone be a headliner as Cedric is with his homophobic articles. Or can I write an article on homosexuality and be a headliner too.

[CG]

Hi Bahamas Issues can anyone be a headliner as Cedric is with his homophobic articles. Or can I write an article on homosexuality and be a headliner too.

Give it a shot! But this is a site devoted to Christ, as Delroy said. We knew this going in. I accept that! I don't expect my Buddhist stuff to be headlined. Do you think your stuff will? I sometimes get the feeling we (who hold differend views) are tolerated, but that is about it. I hope I am wrong but I can live with that.

Anyhow, we should thank Delroy. Most Christian sites would not allow us as much "site time" as we get.

[Delroy]

Anyhow, we should thank Delroy. Most Christian sites would not allow us as much "site time" as we get.

Or the other way around.
I plan to have an automated system placed at the top of the site that will allow every new thread to become a headliner. I hope that this will make everyone happy when it is installed.

God Bless.

[Cedric Moss]

Come on Vicky!

Just because I believe homosexuality is wrong and sinful does not make me homophobic! You know that! Homophobic means being fearful of homosexuals...you know that I am not. On my own initiative I offered to meet alone with the Bahamas Rainbow Alliance (a group you are a part of) and you know every well that our meeting never happened because, evidently you and your group were reluctant to meet me. This was after months of waiting and following up short of begging to meet. Does this sound homophobic? That said, I will not accuse you of being hetrophobic because you all chose not to meet. You had your reasons.

Vicky, resorting to emotional, rhetorical name calling does not help. You need to accept it that I and countless others disgree with you and the views and values you hold and we are not being homophobic...we are disagreeing.

Why do you get upset when others disagree with you and tell you homosexuality is wrong, sinful and aberrant? Normally, getting upset is a sign that one is not confident of the ground of truth on which he stands, and I'm convinced that is the case with you (your footer attests to this). The truth that I stand upon (The Word of God) does not need to be defended by internet sites and nebulus authoritative sources as you do in your attempt to do the impossible to try to make homosexuality and its offshoot behaviours normal.

The day I have to defend God's Word is the day that I become a higher authority than it. So I don't defend it. It defends me.

[Vicky]

Come on Vicky!

Just because I believe homosexuality is wrong and sinful does not make me homophobic! You know that! Homophobic means being fearful of homosexuals...you know that I am not. On my own initiative I offered to meet alone with the Bahamas Rainbow Alliance (a group you are a part of) and you know every well that our meeting never happened because, evidently you and your group were reluctant to meet me. This was after months of waiting and following up short of begging to meet. Does this sound homophobic? That said, I will not accuse you of being hetrophobic because you all chose not to meet. You had your reasons.

Cedric you remember what I told you about lies.

Now if you recall when we contacted each other last year
ref emails

From : Cedric Moss <cmoss@kingdom-life.org>
Sent : Saturday, November 1, 2003 11:13 PM
To : "'Vicky S'" <vickytg@hotmail.com>
Subject : RE: Rainbow Alliance


| | | Inbox

Vicky:

I'm sorry...I do recall that you offered for us to meet. I believe it
was around the time I was having some difficulty posting on
BahamasIssues and I was also busy and did not follow up as diligently as
I out to have.

I had written to Ms. Erin Greene about meeting and I suppose you are
referring to that. If she prefers, I would be willing to meet with a
group that you put together. I am traveling on Sunday, November 9th and
will not be back on the Island until November 22nd. Why don't we
diarize to be in touch on November 24th to organize a day and time?

Please let me know.

Warm regards,

Cedric Moss



-----Original Message-----
From: Vicky S [mailto:vickytg@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 12:41 PM
To: apostle@kingdom-life.org
Subject: Rainbow Alliance

Hi Cedric I understand you want to meet with the or a member of the
Rainbow
Alliance. I am 1 of the founding members.

I invited to to my home some time ago.

I can call a small group of us to meet with you if you like.

Vicky

_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*



Your return was at a busy time for us as it was the Holiday season. So just like you we put it off to be convenient for us. Then you declined the meeting and said that you would lie and say we refused to meet with you.
see your emails below.



From : Cedric Moss <cmoss@kingdom-life.org>
Sent : Saturday, January 31, 2004 10:54 AM
To : 'Vicky S' <vickytg@hotmail.com>
Subject : RE: meeting


| | | Inbox

Hi Vicky:

I really don't want to make this more than it was but please try to
understand what I wrote and what I did not.

Vicky, since we will not be meeting, lets see if we can perhaps gain
understanding of each others position on the matter of legal accommodation
for homosexual unions.

First of all, we need to not be accusatory, especially when our remarks are
unfounded. Vicky, you are very quick to call my statement kind of
hypocritical and your assessment of my statement is wrong. I accepted Ms.
Greene as a genuine person and that's which I invited her to lunch to talk.
I did not and still do not understand the ground on which she and your
groups stands to request/demand legal accommodation for non male/female
unions. Vicky, it can be just "a feeling and a view" that you should have
the union rights you desire. Those are not rights as we understand rights.
The request for these other unions is also a request to legally redefine
foundational aspects of our society. All I am saying is that from my
vantage point and evidently the vantage point of the vast majority of
Bahamians, we will be disadvantaged as a society to do so. You and your
group feel otherwise and that's fine...you are entitled to that view. I
just wanted to learn first hand what ground you were standing on. Now
what's
hypocritical about that?

Vicky, whether you admit it or not, you know it is discourteous to receive
an e-mail invitation to have lunch and discuss it with others but not even
acknowledge receipt to the sender. But I will not accuse Ms. Greene of what
I think her reasons for not responding are because I might be wrong.

I have no reason to lie about the exact way my invitation to Ms. Greene
played out. You will note that I remember facts well and had to remind you
that the group meeting was your idea and not mine. The only reason I
mentioned the possibility of referring to my attempt to meet is that people
sometimes accuse you of not seeking a better understanding of the other
person's view. All I was simply saying is that I can honestly say that I
tried to meet with you and your group without any restrictions or
stipulations on my part and after months of trying and waiting I gave up and
I would state this publicly if it became appropriate.

You mention middle ground and co-existence. If by this you mean some sort
of legal accommodation for same sex unions, I disagree with that type of
middle ground because it encroaches on the institution of marriage. We have
means under our existing laws whereby same sex persons can achieve ALL that
the practical benefits they desire from a law to give them legal unions of
some sort (like wills, powers of attorney, legal agreements etc. So why is
there a need for legal accommodation of their unions? If I am wrong on this
please point out the specific circumstances to me and I will gladly retract
my statements.

I am all for protecting the free association and private sexual expression
of all people, but I'm not for redefining our society and thank God, the
clear majority of Bahamians hold this view. Vicky, we are certainly holding
opposite positions and we both know that the Bahamas is a constitutional
democracy and at the end of the day we both have to be governed by the laws
of our state.

Take care and I trust this clarifies for you my previous note and my
position.

CBM
-----Original Message-----
From: Vicky S [mailto:vickytg@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 7:47 AM
To: Cedric Moss
Subject: RE: meeting


Hi Cedric

Please understand we are an Alliance a group we work together. That is why
she passed it on to the group.

Vicky, I only sought the meeting for better understanding,

This statement is kind of hypocritical after reading your last paragraph.
What is the point to understanding us if you and your special interest group

have no intention of finding middle ground for co existence as Bahamians in
the Bahamas.

Sorry but you were not refused and you making that statement will be a lie.
Is not telling a lie against the teachings of Christ?????


Have a nice day


Vicky


>From: Cedric Moss <cmoss@kingdom-life.org>
>To: 'Vicky S' <vickytg@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: meeting
>Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 14:15:34 -0500
>
>Hi Vicky:
>
>I have no desire to try to Bible thump with you or the others for reasons
>too long (and obvious) to mention.
>
>First of all, I never asked to meet with your group...that was your idea.
>
>In a personal effort to get a better understanding of the exact
>constitutional/legal/discriminatory concerns (civil unions, marriage etc) I
>had heard Erin voice publicly about not having some sort of legal
>accommodation for people in her interest group, I invited her to have lunch
>to talk. That's all. She for reasons unknown to me did not respond but
>mentioned my invitation to you and perhaps others. Then you came up with
>the group meeting idea with specific rules etc.
>
>Vicky, I only sought the meeting for better understanding, not to convince
>anyone of anything. The business of convicting and convincing is that of
>the Holy Spirit.
>
>I do appreciate you following this up but at this point, bearing in mind
>what I have on my plate, lets forget about meeting. However, if the public
>circumstances arise that it is appropriate to say that I sought to meet
>with
>the Rainbow Alliance for a better understanding of their concerns, I will
>state that I did so with persistence but was turned down.
>
>My interest in being apart of the national discussion is not primarily
>spiritual. It is out of a national concern. Out of my concern, I will
>seek
>to try to influence as many people as I can in our nation to be involved in
>a process whereby we enshrine marriage in our constitution as being between
>a man and a woman and prohibit any form of legal accommodation for any
>other
>relationship combination. I will also be careful to ensure that
>homosexuals
>and all others have the freedom of association and private expression of
>their sexuality. If the majority of Bahamians agree with these views they
>will so enshrine and protect marriage. If not, they will not and perhaps
>might even go as far as to grant the same things I propose that we
>restrict.
>And if they do, I will have to live with it if I choose to live in the
>Bahamas. That's the reality of democracy, and especially so in this
>wonderful nation of ours which (according to Paul Adderley) is one of a
>handful governed by a constitution. So unlike Great Britain who will soon
>pass a same sex union law, our parliament does not have the last
>word....thank God!
>
>So Vicky, those are my plans...not that you did not know them.
>
>Take care and all the best.
>
>Cedric Moss
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vicky S [mailto:vickytg@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, January 30, 2004 1:44 PM
>To: Cedric Moss
>Subject: RE: meeting
>
>
>Hi Cedric
>Asked the group about time and date again. They asked again for what
>purpose
>
>do you want to meet with us??? They seem to think you want to try and
>convert us or get into a Bible back and forth as to who/what is right and
>who/what is wrong. You have to know as far as your type of Christian faith
>we have been there done that and bought the T-shirt to. Are you looking for
>understanding as to what it is to be different???? What is it you want to
>find out what is it you want to learn What do you hope to achieve???? I am
>just passing on the questions to you.
>
>
>Vicky
>
>
>
>
> >From: Cedric Moss <cmoss@kingdom-life.org>
> >To: 'Vicky S' <vickytg@hotmail.com>
> >Subject: RE: meeting
> >Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:19:10 -0500
> >
> >Hi there!
> >
> >Just following up on the long promised meeting. Are you and your group
> >still open to meeting? Also, please let Erin know that although I know
> >that
> >she got my mail (you told me she did), I have not even gotten her
> >acknowledgement. I'm assuming she chose not, for whatever reason, to
> >acknowledge receipt.
> >
> >Please let me know about the meeting.
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Vicky S [mailto:vickytg@hotmail.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 2:35 PM
> >To: Cedric Moss
> >Subject: meeting
> >
> >
> >Hi Cedric group wants to know how many people are you thinking of
> >accompanying you?? We thought it was just you but a member is thinking
> >that
> >
> >since you mentioned a big crowd at my house that may be you are thinking
>of
> >bringing other people with you.
> >
> >Vicky
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online

Vicky, resorting to emotional, rhetorical name calling does not help. You need to accept it that I and countless others disgree with you and the views and values you hold and we are not being homophobic...we are disagreeing.

I did not call you any names

Why do you get upset when others disagree with you and tell you homosexuality is wrong, sinful and aberrant? Why do you get up set when we disagree with you and say nothing is wrong with homosexuality and as you say off shoot behaviors? What is wrong is your belief that it is wrong. I ask you all to look at history and all the condemnation we face as homosexuals and off shoots to change it to left handed. You see all and I mean all was said before by so called Christians in their attack on left-handed people. It went on for hundreds of years. People were taught from birth that to be left-handed was to be a worker of Satan. You tell a lie long enough pretty soon people accept it as the truth. Until the people stood up and said this is wrong. Just as we now say this is wrong. Normally, getting upset is a sign that one is not confident of the ground of truth on which he stands, and I'm convinced that is the case with you (your footer attests to this). The truth that I stand upon (The Word of God) does not need to be defended by internet sites and nebulus authoritative sources as you do in your attempt to do the impossible to try to make homosexuality and its offshoot behaviours normal.

Who is upset here not me because just as the Christian injustice to left-handed people was stopped this injustice too will be stopped. I might not live long enough to see it but it has begun. People are starting to question the interpretation you hold so strongly to and many are finding out for them selves your misinterpretation is just that a misinterpretation. Just as the lie was perpetuated about Sodom to create fear many people are looking to the translation and seeing the world Yahda does not mean homosexual sex.

You are up set because I call a spade a spade you can't answer my questions with out condemning your stance on homosexuality and off shoots.


The day I have to defend God's Word is the day that I become a higher authority than it. So I don't defend it. It defends me.

[Cedric Moss]

Vicky:

I am saddened by your angry and accusatory response. You do not know me a part from reading my comments. Why would you choose to accuse me of lying instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt and at least proposing that I forgot that you did initially offer for us to meet?

Do you recall a few weeks back when we were in touch by e-mail when I reminded you of something that I gave you the benefit of the doubt of forgetting. I did not accuse you of lying.

About not debating the Scriptures, please do not assume that my choosing to not do so makes your views right...as kindly as I know to say, they are not. I accept Holy Scripture as being God-breathed and inerrant and you do not so any discussion about things contained therein would be pointless and lead us no where.

That said, I again encourage you to be less hostile and accusatory as you discuss this and other issues...people have different views. and those who stand on the ground of God's truth do not have to defend it...it defends them.

[Vicky]

Vicky:

I am saddened by your angry and accusatory response. You do not know me a part from reading my comments. Why would you choose to accuse me of lying instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt and at least proposing that I forgot that you did initially offer for us to meet?

Here is your lie.
Just because I believe homosexuality is wrong and sinful does not make me homophobic! You know that! Homophobic means being fearful of homosexuals...you know that I am not. On my own initiative I offered to meet alone with the Bahamas Rainbow Alliance (a group you are a part of) and you know every well that our meeting never happened because, evidently you and your group were reluctant to meet me. This was after months of waiting and following up short of begging to meet. Does this sound homophobic? That said, I will not accuse you of being hetrophobic because you all chose not to meet. You had your reasons.

Your words say we refused to meet when it was you who backed out.

Do you recall a few weeks back when we were in touch by e-mail when I reminded you of something that I gave you the benefit of the doubt of forgetting. I did not accuse you of lying.

About not debating the Scriptures, please do not assume that my choosing to not do so makes your views right...as kindly as I know to say, they are not. I accept Holy Scripture as being God-breathed and inerrant and you do not so any discussion about things contained therein would be pointless and lead us no where.

By not debating Scriptures you prove you cannot defend your position on homosexuality and the so called off shoot.

That said, I again encourage you to be less hostile and accusatory as you discuss this and other issues...people have different views. and those who stand on the ground of God's truth do not have to defend it...it defends them.
This is so true "blessed are those who are persacuted in my name sake."

I have defended my position with truth from the same scriptures you try to use against us. These scriptures defend us and you choose to back/look away because they no longer defend you. You are now trying to say majority this and that. Because you can no longer turn to scripture to defend your position.


There is no way you can call me heterophobic you for get I am married to a very supportive woman and I have no sexual interest in the same sex.

You keep saying I am hostile for you to think this you must be feeling it your self. Because I assure you I am not hostile. I am aggresive because if I enter a conflict I do my best to learn and win.

But lets put the shoe on your foot How would you like it if you were a citizen of a country that there are laws dening you a recognized union with the woman you love because she was born with hump on her noes and these laws where put in place just because the mojority of people thought and were taught that noses with humps were againt the Creators will. But you studied scriptuers and you find these people are mistaken and they have a history of being mistaken would you not stand up for your rights. Or would you just go and find another woman.

That is not a question of scripture.

[Cedric Moss]

Vicky:

I decided to give you the last word...lets call it a day.

Take care and all the best.

[CG]

Vicky:

I decided to give you the last word...lets call it a day.

Take care and all the best.

Well, Vicky, I can't say if you won or lost this one!

You are fighting an uphill battle. However, take comfort! Things will change, perhaps not today, or tomorrow are even 50 years from now but things will change and when it does the church will embrace it by explaining that they always really supported the issue! They will offer a "clarification" of their position, where they will explain that they were always in the forefront, fighting for the change. This has happened before - the geocentric universe, slavery, women's rights, women as Rev. the list goes on and on. The church changes its views and values, often. I just pretends it does not.

[Delroy]

Well, Vicky, I can't say if you won or lost this one!

You are fighting an uphill battle. However, take comfort! Things will change, perhaps not today, or tomorrow are even 50 years from now but things will change and when it does the church will embrace it by explaining that they always really supported the issue! They will offer a "clarification" of their position, where they will explain that they were always in the forefront, fighting for the change. This has happened before - the geocentric universe, slavery, women's rights, women as Rev. the list goes on and on. The church changes its views and values, often. I just pretends it does not.

That day will never come CG.
Yes! These values: slavery, women's rights has always been accepted by the the True Church but never homosexuality. Whatever church embraces this spirit is Anti-Christ.

[CG]

That day will never come CG.
Yes! These values: slavery, women's rights has always been accepted by the the True Church .

No they were not, and in some cases still are not.

Let us look at two other "abominations." Fornication and Adultery. In years past women (and sometimes men) were stoned to death for committing the above sins. Later women we branded with the letter "A" for adulteress. The Church spoke out strongly against these sins. Children born "in sin." were excluded form much of the Churches life as well as the life of the society. In some cases the church would not marry them. No "true church" embraced these practices.

Do I have to tell you how things are today? Those two sins are regularly practiced in society and with some big shots in the church, yet the Bible speaks out more strongly about Adultery and Fornication that it does about Homosexuality. Things change. Of course these sins are not officially sanctioned by the church but they are accepted, or at least ignored.


but never homosexuality. Whatever church embraces this spirit is Anti-Christ. We will see!

[Delroy]

No they were not, and in some cases still are not.

Let us look at two other "abominations." Fornication and Adultery. In years past women (and sometimes men) were stoned to death for committing the above sins. Later women we branded with the letter "A" for adulteress. The Church spoke out strongly against these sins. Children born "in sin." were excluded form much of the Churches life as well as the life of the society. In some cases the church would not marry them. No "true church" embraced these practices.

Do I have to tell you how things are today? Those two sins are regularly practiced in society and with some big shots in the church, yet the Bible speaks out more strongly about Adultery and Fornication that it does about Homosexuality. Things change. Of course these sins are not officially sanctioned by the church but they are accepted, or at least ignored.

We will see!

The True Church CG is that which exist in the Word of God. The Kingdom of God exist in His Word. The Word of God is Truth and the Church is the people of the Kingdom. The people of the Kingdom live by the Word. If you knew the Word then you would know the truth.

In the Kingdom of God all men are equal. Why? Because the Word says so and the Kingdom of God exist in His Word.

In the Kingdom of God the spirit of Homosexuality does not exist. Why? Because the Word says so and the Kingdom of God exist in His Word.

Shall I go on?

[Vicky]

The True Church CG is that which exist in the Word of God. The Kingdom of God exist in His Word. The Word of God is Truth and the Church is the people of the Kingdom. The people of the Kingdom live by the Word. If you knew the Word then you would know the truth.

In the Kingdom of God all men are equal. Why? Because the Word says so and the Kingdom of God exist in His Word.

In the Kingdom of God the spirit of Homosexuality does not exist. Why? Because the Word says so and the Kingdom of God exist in His Word.

Shall I go on?

Delroy Where do you find this word of the Creator????

[Delroy]

Delroy Where do you find this word of the Creator????

Vicky you appear to read the Bible more than I do so you should know.

[CG]

.......Shall I go on?

Yes Please.

Also, can you clarify "The Kingdom of God exist in His Word." All persuasions of Christianity claim to live by the Word - while claiming the other do not. All things written are subject to interpretation. Some times that interpretation differs little, at other times it is poles apart.

You also said, "If you knew the Word then you would know the truth." Well, I do know the Word. I know the Word as the Catholics interpret it, as the Protestants understand it and I also know how the Jews and the followers of Islam see it.

As surprising as it may seem, I really have no quarrel with the many faces of Christianity. I have no quarrel with the many expressions of God. My dispute is with those who leave no room for the fact that religious expressions and beliefs change. The change may be slow, sometime almost imperceptible but change it does - change, it has!