Now,Vicky, you know that cannot be proven to your satisfaction...even if God himself drop the answer on ya head...How would you know it's the Creator and not Satan as it says in the Bible Satan will fool many into think he is The Creator?????you would infinitely regress until you find the mental ground to reject probability and logical conclusion so that you can be your own Lord and Master. If the message was to treat someone differently than I my self would want to be treated I would not pay any attention to it. If it were a message to groveling on the ground in some sort of worship I would not. I can stand in pride, respect of the Creator, myself, in total humility and worship of the Creator.
Ever heard of Steven Hawkins' Grand Unification Theory? Or Hidelberg's Laws of Thermodynamics, Faubach's Infinite Regression Argument, Darwin's Natural Selection, Kant, Russell, Ryn and Solon etc.?
They all agree to one thing...none of us can definitively prove the Bible is the word of God...but none of us can prove it is not! Want to try that one?
Steven Hawkins said that natural phenomenon proves that according to the intricate and precise nature of the universe there HAVE to be a point of origin! He went further and said that point of origin must contain the generative genius of creation. He concluded this because being the greatest Astropsycisist, he must concede that the universe is not random! And like the others, because he would not accept God from the Bible, he said: "The universe has order and Hidelberg's Laws of Thermodynamics says that order cannot come from disorder...therefore, there must be a unifing first order...I cannot say it is God...but I cannot say it is not God"! Bertrand Russell put it this way: " I never said there is not a God...I said I don't know if there is a God"! And Blanch Bellow concluded this way: "There has to be a God...but I will not obay him/her"!These people aknowledge the Creator in these words not that the Bible is/are the Creators words
I have read holy books from all the major faiths,studied evolution, astronomy, genetics, philosophy and history...the Bible make a whole heap of sense to me.In what way? Please explain how it makes sence to stone a child just because he does not listen to his Mom and Dad?? Thats in the Bible. What if the Mom and Dad are telling the kid to go out and sell drugs??? None of the great thinkers has disproved its contents, nor has a single christian brought concrete evidence to prove it is the word of God! You take your pick...or better still, you prove it is not the word of God!
Vic, our existence dictates that our universe is not random... no one can prove this either way. thus not random...then ordered! Because it is ordered...there must be the first order...the grand unification point of origin (I believe that point is God) may have given men a book. You think that the designer of the universe don't know to inspire men to write a book?
I believe the Bible is the word of that Creator! After all, the written word is how we pass on knowledge and information...simple! Many of the stories in the Bible were before the writen word. This is my personal choice...based of logic and reason!
The bottom line is...if you reject the Bible as the word of God because it cannot be concretely proved, then logic require that you reject all other knowledge and theories that you cannot concretely prove! Or you are being dishonest!There is much in the Bible you would reject such as slavery and the list would go on. The bottom line is... you can reject the part of the Bible you choose because you don't want it imposed on you. After all you probably would still be a slave. Hummm...lets seeee...how is it that you don't live by all the laws in "the word for God"??? So sorry I did not realize you knew better than "God"
Hummm...lets seeee...how about let us start with GAYS ARE BORN OR HOMSEXUALITY IS NOT A CHOICE! The jury is out for these issues...huh?
Still on your side for your right to be who and what you like to be...;)


Licks, for me there is truth in all not just the Bible. But like all religious writings the Bible has had its writers and these writers have had their own artistic input as they saw the context of their times and the limit of the language. If you believe it is truly the word of the Creator why don't you believe in the right to own a slave??? Why don't you insist we stone those that commit adultery?? Do you eat pork and crawfish please point out where the Creator changed his/her mind and its now ok after all according to you it’s the word of the Creator. Why is it we feel we don't have to wear tassels on our four quarters???? It’s in the Bible
You say you have studied other religions lets pick Baha'i or Quakers can you prove their writings are not the word of the Creator?

The point is the Bible is about faith personal faith. Can you or any one prove their faith is better than mine???? So why must I live by your faith or you live by mine.
No matter the faith sex gender race creed and any orientation or variations to humanity we should all live and let live accepting all humanity as human and equals in all our flaws and glories.

Sorry, can't help you prove it, but this Top 10 list is pretty darned funny.
Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.


WOW! your little analogy at the end sounds just like that...ah..ah...yes! That missing link thingum!:p

Vicky, I must admit, some of the questions you put to me are chosen to show me that there are some things in the Bible that are alienated to our neo-biblical sensibilities of mordenist thinking. Those "things" are there...they are undeniably apart of the Book! I did not say that I can of has proven that the Bible is true...but that based on my experiences and study, I have concluded that it is awsome...so I hold to it! Not blindly, mind you, but after 30 plus years reading into those issues! No, I not a preacher or anything of that sort...just like knowledge!

If you noticed in my piece I alluded to fair play and equity for all...whether that equity makes fools of wisepersons of us all...to each his own! In fact, I used no thinking of christians...but of some of the foremost philosophers, atheists and agnostics in history! :cool:

I also said that the originator of this thread nor I can concretely prove to you that the Bible is the word of God. Each of us has his personal reasoning that concludes for us that the Bible did in fact come from God! And you cannot prove it did not!

Also, logic demands that you cannot conviently dismiss my arguments based on some structural fallacy and revert to that same structure to prove a similar syllogistic conclusion where your argument's stem, body and conclusion are mirror images of the ones you dismissed previously. Either both are wrong or both right! There can be no win-lose outcome. In addition, your reply presupposes a "true" and a " false" way...concluding that one of us is wrong and the other is right. But I say neither of us can prove either way...nor can we concretely display what we believe! Thus, we only believe! Effectively, this negates us to equality and consequently, acceptance by faith! You to your bowl of pottage and I am to mine!

Now you may understand why I am not gay yet defend gay people's rights to self expression, non-discriminatory access to resources and social equality! My religious beliefs are not law of the land...and you are free to hold them or not...yet, you are still my equal! We just hold different views about religion!:cool:

I highly respect and value both of your opinions.
But the bible says that Jesus ascended into the air, later it says he returns and we are caught up into the air to meet him.
I understand that the Holy Spirit comes to live in us - as Christ in us, not as Christ being here.
Why don't you two expand so that i may understand you more fully.
He was seen ascending into the air, so how can he still be here?


It seems to me that you conviently vacillate between the bombastic and the aburd to disprove anything contrary to your opinions. For example, those questions above! CHRISTIANS ACCEPT THOSE WORDS BY FAITH!! So why are you asking them to explain them more fully for you? If they answer you according to their faith, you will only come with some other off-the-wall smart a** question that they can't explain by extra-faith means. Then I can just hear you: "See! The Bible can't be proven"!

I think you are just being plain mean! Tell you what. I am going to ask you to explain how come you have a mind (an entity) that you cannot prove to me that it is there! Yet, you tell me and errybody who gat half an ear,that you have one! I een know if you lying to me! :due: I can't see ya mind!

How can it be that you have this vibrant mechanism in your person that governs your very existence and you can't see, touch nor show it to me? You don't even know where the hell it is! Where is it? In your head, in your chest or what?

Now don't call on scientific studies "last resort" to tell me where is your brain...they can only measure brain wave patterns as your body do certain things! Nothing else! In fact the whole world of academia combined cannot prove you've got a mind!

Now, they can conduct experiments and give probability levels of the possibility that you do have one! But, they cannot prove you have one, where-ever humans keep them!

There is no single study to definitively pin-point your mind and say: "There or here is the mind of bsmbahamas...see or feel it! Huh? I guess that I have to take it by faith that you do have a mind in one er them pockets or something...but I can't prove it! Nor can you! So are many mysteries of life!:rolleyes:


:driving: :bouncy: :hammer:

Sorry, can't help you prove it, but this Top 10 list is pretty darned funny.
Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian
10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.
9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.
8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.
7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!
6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.
4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."
3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.
2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.
1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.





That's some monster stuff right there.

Now,Vicky, you know that cannot be proven to your satisfaction...even if God himself drop the answer on ya head...you would infinitely regress until you find the mental ground to reject probability and logical conclusion so that you can be your own Lord and Master.
Ever heard of Steven Hawkins' Grand Unification Theory? Or Hidelberg's Laws of Thermodynamics, Faubach's Infinite Regression Argument, Darwin's Natural Selection, Kant, Russell, Ryn and Solon etc.?
They all agree to one thing...none of us can definitively prove the Bible is the word of God...but none of us can prove it is not! Want to try that one?
Steven Hawkins said that natural phenomenon proves that according to the intricate and precise nature of the universe there HAVE to be a point of origin! He went further and said that point of origin must contain the generative genius of creation. He concluded this because being the greatest Astropsycisist, he must concede that the universe is not random! And like the others, because he would not accept God from the Bible, he said: "The universe has order and Hidelberg's Laws of Thermodynamics says that order cannot come from disorder...therefore, there must be a unifing first order...I cannot say it is God...but I cannot say it is not God"! Bertrand Russell put it this way: " I never said there is not a God...I said I don't know if there is a God"! And Blanch Bellow concluded this way: "There has to be a God...but I will not obay him/her"!
I have read holy books from all the major faiths,studied evolution, astronomy, genetics, philosophy and history...the Bible make a whole heap of sense to me. None of the great thinkers has disproved its contents, nor has a single christian brought concrete evidence to prove it is the word of God! You take your pick...or better still, you prove it is not the word of God!
Vic, our existence dictates that our universe is not random...thus not random...then ordered! Because it is ordered...there must be the first order...the grand unification point of origin (I believe that point is God) may have given men a book. You think that the designer of the universe don't know to inspire men to write a book?
I believe the Bible is the word of that Creator! After all, the written word is how we pass on knowledge and information...simple! This is my personal choice...based of logic and reason!
The bottom line is...if you reject the Bible as the word of God because it cannot be concretely proved, then logic require that you reject all other knowledge and theories that you cannot concretely prove! Or you are being dishonest!
Hummm...lets seeee...how about let us start with GAYS ARE BORN OR HOMSEXUALITY IS NOT A CHOICE! The jury is out for these issues...huh?
Still on your side for your right to be who and what you like to be...;)




Very good point. I'll also add...

Mr. Josh McDowell, a noted Bible teacher, says that only God could have created a book which:

1. Has been transmitted accurately from the time it was originally written.
2. Is correct when it deals with historical people and events.
3. Contains no "scientific absurdities"
4. Remains true and relevant to all people for all time.


Additionally, God has chosen written communication as the primary means to deliver his message about the meaning of life. The reason is simple. For reliability you can not beat the written word. If you verbally tell someone something to someone, and that someone tells someone else, then the chances of something changing is very high. But when you write your message down and give it to someone else, there's no question as to what you said.

Very good point. I'll also add...
Mr. Josh McDowell, a noted Bible teacher, says that only God could have created a book which:
1. Has been transmitted accurately from the time it was originally written.
2. Is correct when it deals with historical people and events.
3. Contains no "scientific absurdities"
4. Remains true and relevant to all people for all time.



on points 1 and 3 is he sure about that. especially on 3, it has just become clear to me that the bible is filled with absurdities and gigantic, ginormous gapping holes.

1. Has been transmitted accurately from the time it was originally written.
As no one knows the date it was written - that is overstated. Most of it was likely written during the Babylonian Captivity (586 - 538 B.C.) The writers relied heavily on the Babylonian writings such as the "Epic of Gilgamesh" where the story of the worldwide flood was taken. They also had a similar account of creation,

2. Is correct when it deals with historical people and events.
There are many correct things there. However, there are some glaring mistakes. For example, here is no historical proof of a Hebrew king named David. His name is found only in the Bible.
There are many correct things in the Holy Books of other faiths as well - many historical people and events.

3. Contains no "scientific absurdities"
Not so. There are many. One that springs to mind is the one where the "sun stood still." We now know that it would have had to been the earth that stood still as we move around the sun. (The writers at the time did not know this.) Had that happened they all would have drifted off into space!

4. Remains true and relevant to all people for all time.
That remains to be seen, as "all time" has not expired yet! Also, many people do not find it true or relevant at all now a days!

The Bible is a book of faith and some facts, and some history, but it is more a book of faith.(Just like every other Holy Book.) If it is read like a history book, the meaning of its faith message is lost and one is left with cold "facts."

big old round of appluase to CG. also how do i know i shouldnt be reading the koran (sp), maybe the jehovah witness bible, maybe i should become morman or luthran. all i know is in any event it seems as though the majority of us are goin to hell (believers, of the wrong faith; and non believers) and it is a toss up of who is goin the other direction.

big old round of appluase to CG. also how do i know i shouldnt be reading the koran (sp), maybe the jehovah witness bible, maybe i should become morman or luthran. all i know is in any event it seems as though the majority of us are goin to hell (believers, of the wrong faith; and non believers) and it is a toss up of who is goin the other direction.


i aint worried, its up to gawd, just do good as best you can, treat others as you would want to be treated, and you cant go wrong, i mean humans are never going to be perfect ... you could be the most devoted christian in the world, or islam, or hindu, or whatever, but its up to the big guy in the sky as to where yah go :rolleyes:

i aint worried, its up to gawd, just do good as best you can, treat others as you would want to be treated, and you cant go wrong, i mean humans are never going to be perfect ... you could be the most devoted christian in the world, or islam, or hindu, or whatever, but its up to the big guy in the sky as to where yah go :rolleyes:


so I am guessing u believe that there IS A GOD/GODS/CREATOR and there is a heaven and a hell. I say we go the same place we came from before we were born.

so I am guessing u believe that there IS A GOD/GODS/CREATOR and there is a heaven and a hell. I say we go the same place we came from before we were born.


who knows .... except the dead ...

who knows .... except the dead ...


ror u b keepin some late hrs dude

this still early .. ill sleep plenty when im dead :D
anyway workin on video code ...

Vicky, I must admit, some of the questions you put to me are chosen to show me that there are some things in the Bible that are alienated to our neo-biblical sensibilities of mordenist thinking. Those "things" are there...they are undeniably apart of the Book! I did not say that I can of has proven that the Bible is true...but that based on my experiences and study, I have concluded that it is awsome...I do not say the Bible is not awsome as are other religions Holy writings awsome. How is it christians can condenm other religions and the Holy writings yet can't prove their own. so I hold to it! Not blindly, mind you, but after 30 plus years reading into those issues! No, I not a preacher or anything of that sort...just like knowledge! Great then please name the other relihions you studied and what partof their Holy writings showed you they were wrong.
If you noticed in my piece I alluded to fair play and equity for all...whether that equity makes fools of wisepersons of us all...to each his own! In fact, I used no thinking of christians...but of some of the foremost philosophers, atheists and agnostics in history! :cool:
I also said that the originator of this thread nor I can concretely prove to you that the Bible is the word of God. Each of us has his personal reasoning that concludes for us that the Bible did in fact come from God! And you cannot prove it did not!Here you go again you use the word fact as if you have some sort of proof that the Bible is the word of the Creator. If you have no proof I suggest you re word this like this. "Each of us has his personal reasoning that concludes for us that the Bible did in faith come from God!"
Also, logic demands that you cannot conviently dismiss my arguments based on some structural fallacy and revert to that same structure to prove a similar syllogistic conclusion where your argument's stem, body and conclusion are mirror images of the ones you dismissed previously. Either both are wrong or both right! There can be no win-lose outcome. In addition, your reply presupposes a "true" and a " false" way...concluding that one of us is wrong and the other is right. But I say neither of us can prove either way...nor can we concretely display what we believe! Thus, we only believe! Effectively, this negates us to equality and consequently, acceptance by faith! You to your bowl of pottage and I am to mine!This is well said you to yours me to mine. Both equal very good.
Now you may understand why I am not gay yet defend gay people's rights to self expression, non-discriminatory access to resources and social equality! My religious beliefs are not law of the land...and you are free to hold them or not...yet, you are still my equal! We just hold different views about religion!:cool:

Ding and the sparks fly you hit the nail on the head.