Still only boils down to faith
You know a wise teacher once said to his student "it is silly to teach with words therefore I will not." What other way does the master have to teach the student?

1) Either we have not learn to use words as visual as action portrays or it is foolish to attempt to use words to make the point.

2) Or, it may be that we understand faith and fact in different ways.

Either way I concede defeat, words and my understanding is all that I have.
So, then; maybe you can explain to me how you understand this faith fact riddle.
Words are all you have, perhaps you can do better!

You know a wise teacher once said to his student "it is silly to teach with words therefore I will not." What other way does the master have to teach the student?

1) Either we have not learn to use words as visual as action portrays or it is foolish to attempt to use words to make the point.

2) Or, it may be that we understand faith and fact in different ways.

Either way I concede defeat, words and my understanding is all that I have.
So, then; maybe you can explain to me how you understand this faith fact riddle.
Words are all you have, perhaps you can do better!

Now as far as the Creator is concerned there are many religions and more writings but all can only say we belive.
That is why I call God Creator of all.

Fact we have not fact about the Creator. We have faith. Go to court, fact an evidence are used not belief. You can't have a witness say I believe he killed the man now can you. I know I was not there and did not see but I believe it anyway. That is faith. An eyewitness or eyewitness's give testimony it’s considered fact. I am an eyewitness for my self I tell you all I am gender dyaphoric/transgender/crossdresser/a woman trapped in a mans body how ever you want the label to be. Does anyone have any fact that I don't exist???

Fact hermaphrodites are born everyday. These are human where the genitalia are not clearly male or female. Facts the same conditions that cause this can also affect the brain. Fact these same conditions that effect the brain might not effect genitalia.

Hoe does one prove the Bible is not the word of the Creator. I say which one or even which religion. The one Emperor Constantine had the Bible canonized at the Niacin Council. (A council of men decided what would be in the Bible and what would not.) (Oh and they were being paid by emperor Constantine do you think this Pagan Roman Emperor had any influence on what’s in the Bible. I ask why is Christmas on Dec. 25 why do we celebrate Easter with bunny rabbit’s chicks and eggs?)

Doesn't The Bible itself tell you that it is not the word of the Creator? John 1:1
And as far as your response to IUpdate. "It all boils down to faith."
I agree, but according to Genesis that's how God made that which was made.
HE spoke things into existence using His Faith, His Word and His words.
So I'm think CG and IUpdate are onto something alot of people miss.
With faith we can establish fact, it just so happens that the steps between faith and fact differ with each process faith is used.

HI, just read this post. This is very interesting. First of all Vicky have you ever read the Bible? If you have you would know about the accurate predictions that it. Eg. Daniel chapter 2. Read it then give me your response.
Regards

Doesn't The Bible itself tell you that it is not the word of the Creator? John 1:1
And as far as your response to IUpdate. "It all boils down to faith."
I agree, but according to Genesis that's how God made that which was made.
HE spoke things into existence using His Faith, His Word and His words.
So I'm think CG and IUpdate are onto something alot of people miss.
With faith we can establish fact, it just so happens that the steps between faith and fact differ with each process faith is used.


how do you come to the conclusion that Joh chap 1 vs 1 means that?
just asking to explain your interpertation!

HI, just read this post. This is very interesting. First of all Vicky have you ever read the Bible? If you have you would know about the accurate predictions that it. Eg. Daniel chapter 2. Read it then give me your response.
Regards


Ok so what is your point?
Its a story/prediction many civilizations had their religious predictions. Danal simple stated a fact that civilizations would rise and fall. There is nothing special about that.
The civilization that was in the Bahamas fell and ours rose from it. Oours will fall to. Its called evolution.

The point is that Daniel was accurate, he named the civilizations in order . No other book can claim such accuracy. His predictions were centuries before their time, and he does not take credit for it. He gives credit to the Lord.The Lord said that the Medo-Persian empire would come after Babylon, and Babylonians knew this. Why didn't they stop it ? Some of the nations that were in the prediction were not even known.
Many times men have tried to disprove the Bible. None have succeeded. Why?
Men have tried to destroy it. None have succeeded. Why? You tell me why this book still stands.
Regards

The point is that Daniel was accurate, he named the civilizations in order . No other book can claim such accuracy. His predictions were centuries before their time, and he does not take credit for it. He gives credit to the Lord.The Lord said that the Medo-Persian empire would come after Babylon, and Babylonians knew this. Why didn't they stop it ? Some of the nations that were in the prediction were not even known.
Many times men have tried to disprove the Bible. None have succeeded. Why?
Men have tried to destroy it. None have succeeded. Why? You tell me why this book still stands.
Regards

I like your name, "seekeroftruth." I don't doubt that you are. However, many seekers of truth that I have encountered are not as much seeking truth as seeking to confirm what they already hold to be true. They disregard anything that does not fit their preconceived ideas. I hope you are not such a seeker?

On the Book of Daniel. Yes, it was accurate. Some scholars believe the accuracy can be explain by the fact that it was written after the events happened. This may be true in part but it does not, to me, satisfactorily explain the Book. I would believe that there was some spiritual help in the writing of the book. I concede this as there are other Holy Books from other religions, many of them older than the Bible, that have prophecies as well. One that springs to mind is an American-Indian prophecy that predicted the "Iron Horse" (Rail Roads) and the "Singing Wires (sometimes called Vines)" long before they were common even in Europe.

You wrote, "Many times men have tried to disprove the Bible. None have succeeded. Why?" I think that, in many minds, the Bible has been disproved. It is clear that the earth goes around the sun, not as the Bible states, the sun around the earth. Evolution was the mechanism that created life, not creation. (Or perhaps it was a mixture of the two.) The list goes on.

In a sense, the Bible is destroyed. Vast armies of people, many who call themselves Christian, no longer hold the Bible as the infallible word of God, nor do they hold it as the only word of God. The power and the wonderful mystery that the Bible held in our lives has greatly diminished. Many Christians never read the Book! When I was into Christianity the hardest job we had was to get people to read the Bible. Many found it to difficult. More of them found it was irrelevant to their lives. Many, simple did not believe it and yet they continued to call themselves Christians. A goodly number believe it but never read it - they rely on others to tell them what it means (hence the 27,000+ different "kinds" of Christianity.)

You also wrote, "Men have tried to destroy it. None have succeeded. Why?" I would ask why have the Holy Books of Hinduism (much older that the Bible) survived despite attempts to destroy them? The same hold true for many other Holy Writings from other religions. The reason is that people believed in the writings. When people no longer believe, the writings die. They don't die all at once, they drift into obscurity.

The Bible still stands today, but it stands on shaky legs. The drift began with the Enlightenment and it is still going on at an ever increasing pace. I think a Christian's job, particularly a Christian leaders job, is to slow down, or stop that drift by teaching the truth. This truth must be based on fact and not on a cosmology that is 2,000 years out of date. Ask any kid that you know and he will tell you that what he learns in Sunday School is contradicted by what he learns Monday thru Friday at school. A religion cannot last long with that kind of thing going on. Gods do not hold religions up. The believers do. No more believers, no more religion! :rip:

how do you come to the conclusion that Joh chap 1 vs 1 means that?
just asking to explain your interpertation!


John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The word Bible or Scripture does not appear in this sentence.


2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Saying that The Word (the same) was in the beginning with God, and that The Word had an indelible hand in making any and everything that has material properties.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Word is a "him" not an it.
The Bible is an "it."

i thought it was the word become life...
as jesus was the word become flesh...

I like your name, "seekeroftruth." I don't doubt that you are. However, many seekers of truth that I have encountered are not as much seeking truth as seeking to confirm what they already hold to be the true. They disregard anything that does not fit their preconceived ideas. I hope you are not such a seeker?

On the Book of Daniel. Yes, it was accurate. Some scholars believe the accuracy can be explain by the fact that it was written after the events happened. This may be true in part but it does not, to me, satisfactorily explain the Book. I would believe that there was some spiritual help in the writing of the book. I concede this as there are other Holy Books from other religions, many of them older than the Bible, that have prophecies as well. One that springs to mind is an American-Indian prophecy that predicted the "Iron Horse" (Rail Roads) and the "Singing Wires (sometimes called Vines)" long before they were common even in Europe.

You wrote, "Many times men have tried to disprove the Bible. None have succeeded. Why?" I think that, in many minds, the Bible has been disproved. It is clear that the earth goes around the sun, not as the Bible states, the sun around the earth. Evolution was the mechanism that created life, not creation. (Or perhaps it was a mixture of the two.) The list goes on.

In a sense, the Bible is destroyed. Vast armies of people, many who call themselves Christian, no longer hold the Bible as the infallible word of God, nor do they hold it as the only word of God. The power and the wonderful mystery that the Bible held in our lives has greatly diminished. Many Christians never read the Book! When I was into Christianity the hardest job we had was to get people to read the Bible. Many found it to difficult. More of them found it was irrelevant to their lives. Many, simple did not believe it and yet they continued to call themselves Christians. A goodly number believe it but never read it - they rely on others to tell them what it means (hence the 27,000+ different "kinds" of Christianity.)

You also wrote, "Men have tried to destroy it. None have succeeded. Why?" I would ask why have the Holy Books of Hinduism (much older that the Bible) survived despite attempts to destroy them? The same hold true for many other Holy Writings from other religions. The reason is that people believed in the writings. When people no longer believe, the writings die. They don't die all at once, they drift into obscurity.

The Bible still stands today, but it stands on shaky legs. The drift began with the Enlightenment and it is still going on at an ever increasing pace. I think a Christian's job, particularly a Christian leaders job, is to slow down, or stop that drift by teaching the truth. This truth must be based on fact and not on a cosmology that is 2,000 years out of date. Ask any kid that you know and he will tell you that what he learns in Sunday School is contradicted by what he learns Monday thru Friday at school. A religion cannot last long with that kind of thing going on. Gods do not hold religions up. The believers do. No more believers, no more religion! :rip:


O O OO O Nail on the head. However what I read of those predictions was open to interpretation. If someone prophesizes that the civilization Gaga GooGoo will come after ours and they have the power to make it known, when the next civilization is on the rise they will say it was said many years ago the Gaga GooGoo would be our civilization.
So for 1 it’s not the teachings of Christ. For 2 it’s a historical story like a flying carpet Or the unicorn.
We have to understand 1 thing the Bible is not total fact. It might be faith but faith is not fact.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


The word Bible or Scripture does not appear in this sentence.


2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Thank you so much for that. As I have tried to tell all these doubting Thomas's, That nothing can exist with out the Creator creating it and all that the Creator created is good just see the blessing on the 6th day for creation.
So even the GLBT are created by the Creator to serve the Creators purpose. Even lucifer serves the purpose of the Creator.
After all the Creator knows past present and future.

Saying that The Word (the same) was in the beginning with God, and that The Word had an indelible hand in making any and everything that has material properties.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Word is a "him" not an it.
The Bible is an "it."

i thought it was the word become life...
as jesus was the word become flesh...

Think you need to do some reaserch. Christ calls hime self the Son of man. Not the word become flesh.

Also look into the Bible code. They might have something to think about. They say that the Hebrew writings (the Torah I think) are just 1 word with out spaces for words puncituition marks or anything. Each letter next to the other and 1 above the other. That is the word that is refered to in John.

O O OO O Nail on the head. However what I read of those predictions was open to interpretation. If someone prophesizes that the civilization Gaga GooGoo will come after ours and they have the power to make it known, when the next civilization is on the rise they will say it was said many years ago the Gaga GooGoo would be our civilization.
So for 1 it’s not the teachings of Christ. For 2 it’s a historical story like a flying carpet Or the unicorn.
We have to understand 1 thing the Bible is not total fact. It might be faith but faith is not fact.


Hi Vicky, I am a bit puzzled by your last 2 sentences: "We have to understand 1 thing the Bible is not total fact. It might be faith but faith is not fact"

Well Vicky, this grabs me as if you do not believe that God Himself exists. (Hope I am wrong in coming to this conclusion).

But you seem to be saying that the living word of the living God is not fact! I think it is hard for a serious Christian to acept that!

Another thing I would like to touch on here if I may is something CG has posted about how the other great religious works have also lasted very long, and that the Bible seems to be dying.

CG, lets take the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount. Bible scholars believe that afther the children of Israel were being so disobedient and difficult to deal with, God gave them the 10 Commandments. They say He was in effect saying: "Let me show you all what it means to be holy as I am holy. You keep these 10 commandments". He knew full well they could not keep them (Who can?), so He was pointing them to His Son Christ who would come in the future. They would have to depennd on Christ alone to receive salvation and not on any laws which they can't keep!

Re the Sermon on the mount, Bible scholars say ALL the philosophy and ALL the psychology in exstence could not come close to the Sermon on the Mount to produce righteous living! So these two pieces in the Bible are very influential in the Christian world. And I understand that many of the laws of the land in western nations are based on the 10 Commandments!

CG, with your vast knowledge of other religions, can you think of any passages in some of those other religions which would have the kind of moral influence on mankind as the 10 Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount?

As you and Vicky probably know, I am not trying to be difficult or anything, I am just trying to seek knowledge. My knowledge of other religions is nil. Thank you.

Think you need to do some reaserch. Christ calls hime self the Son of man. Not the word become flesh.

Also look into the Bible code. They might have something to think about. They say that the Hebrew writings (the Torah I think) are just 1 word with out spaces for words puncituition marks or anything. Each letter next to the other and 1 above the other. That is the word that is refered to in John.

im only asking questions vicky...
God!!!
:taped:
but they were seperate statements!
:cheers: