shut your mouth vicky...
you dont beleive in divinity..if you did, then you would not speak of the millions of followers to be wrong!

you are still to me a little warped!

CG, with your vast knowledge of other religions, can you think of any passages in some of those other religions which would have the kind of moral influence on mankind as the 10 Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount?

Off the top of my head, I can think of The Eight Fold Path - Buddhist. It has warnings against lying, stealing, killing. It also tells the Buddhist how to live an enlightened life. It is like the Ten Commandments and the sermon on the Mount all in one. (Please note that an understanding of the Four Noble Truths is important to look into first - if you are going to look them up.)

The Buddha's first sermon at the Deer Park near Benares is said to be comparable to Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount (or is it the other way around?) You will find it in the Dhammapada. There are some that say Jesus was influenced by the teachings of the Buddha.

Confucius, notice his dates! (551-479 BC) counseled, "don't do to others what you would not want yourself"

The Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, are wonderful indeed but they are not unique.

Off the top of my head, I can think of The Eight Fold Path - Buddhist. It has warnings against lying, stealing, killing. It also tells the Buddhist how to live an enlightened life. It is like the Ten Commandments and the sermon on the Mount all in one. (Please note that an understanding of the Four Noble Truths is important to look into first - if you are going to look them up.)

The Buddha's first sermon at the Deer Park near Benares is said to be comparable to Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount (or is it the other way around?) You will find it in the Dhammapada. There are some that say Jesus was influenced by the teachings of the Buddha.

Confucius, notice his dates! (551-479 BC) counseled, "don't do to others what you would not want yourself"

The Ten Commandments, the Sermon on the Mount, are wonderful indeed but they are not unique.


Thanks CG. Will check out the Four Noble Truths and The Eight Fold Path.

One thought just came to me: The Bible predicts that conditions in the world will continue to get worse until that Great Day comes when the Prince of Peace will come to bring peace.

So, in a sense, has not all these great religions of old failed, because none of them has brought peace to the world?

If this is the case, then wouldn't this give great credibility that the Bible is truly the Word of God?

im only asking questions vicky...
God!!!
:taped:
but they were seperate statements!
:cheers:

To bad you could not see my emotions as I typed that response. It was not typed with any kid of hard feelings. I was a genuine suggestion.

Thanks CG. Will check out the Four Noble Truths and The Eight Fold Path.

One thought just came to me: The Bible predicts that conditions in the world will continue to get worse until that Great Day comes when the Prince of Peace will come to bring peace.

So, in a sense, has not all these great religions of old failed, because none of them has brought peace to the world?

If this is the case, then wouldn't this give great credibility that the Bible is truly the Word of God?

If you are talking about peace in the world (no wars etc.) then yes, all religions, including Christianity have failed. But I don't think that is the peace that all these religions are talking about, including Christianity.

The nature of the human is one of conflict. We have two major conflicts. One is with each other. We hate, we fight, we kill other for a number of reasons. The second is conflict within our own egos that drives us to do the things mentioned in the first conflict.

Religion does not, necessarily, bring peace to the world. It brings it to the human heart, one person at a time. It is the "fix" for the human ego. When Jesus, and others, said that they came to bring peace, that was the peace they were talking about, the stopping of the war within the human heart. That has not failed. There are millions upon uncounted millions who have achieved this peace. The problem is, there are many more millions who have not and cannot because they see religion as another weapon to add to their arsenal of weapons to use against others. They cannot see the peace religion offers. They have not experienced the death of the ego. The "Big Three" Judaism, Islam, and Christianity lead the world in using religion as a weapon. The "Big Three" acknowledge this with the greatest regret. Yet, no religion can claim "clean hands" here.

I don't know if you saw the TV show, "The West Wing" last Wednesday. President Bartlett called the Palestinians and the Israeli leaders to talk peace. There was tension in the air. There was one scene where all sides took a break to worship. Outside were the Palestinians, worshiping Allah. Inside were the Jews celebrating and worshiping Jehovah. It was a troubling scene because they were all worshiping the same God but their human egos got in the way. It stood in the way of worshiping together and to finding a solution to their problems. Their religions became a stumbling block, a thing that divided and wounded - not as it should be, a thing that mends!

There is no world peace. There never will be. But don't worry about it. Seek the peace in the heart. Christianity can do this, as can others, once we understand what the peace is that they are talking about - God's peace. Once found it lives in the human heart, not in the world.

shut your mouth vicky...
you dont beleive in divinity..if you did, then you would not speak of the millions of followers to be wrong!
Please, I need you to clearify this statment before I respond.
you are still to me a little warped!

Great demos I will respond to you this evening as I have much work to do right now.

Please, I need you to clearify this statment before I respond.


things never look good when you write them, but they sure sound good when you say them!
:fly:

just joshing you vic....
:lafs:

To bad you could not see my emotions as I typed that response. It was not typed with any kid of hard feelings. I was a genuine suggestion.


well you sure as heck came off arrogant!
:realmad:
no ill will...just asking questions!!
and your response to the initial question wasnt sufficient to me! :cool:

Hi Vicky, I am a bit puzzled by your last 2 sentences: "We have to understand 1 thing the Bible is not total fact. It might be faith but faith is not fact"
First before you study the Bible you should understand its history. I have done some reaserch and am still doing it. The Bible we read to day is different from the 1 put together at the Niceian concil. Which by the way was set up by Emproer Constintine. He was a Pagan Roman emperor. He remaned pagan long after the nicien council. He only converted to Christanity near his death.
Ask you self why do we celebrate Christmas on December 25th a high holyday for Pagans. Why do we celabrate Easter. Another high holyday for the Pagans for spring and the goddess Ester. The goddess of fertility, it was celabrated with bunnies eggs and chicks.
Well Vicky, this grabs me as if you do not believe that God Himself exists. (Hope I am wrong in coming to this conclusion).
God a him?? Since when does God have a penis? God is neither male nor female God just is. Now your reference to God is my reference to the Creator. Because nothing can exist with out the Creator creating it. NOTHING!. All serves the Creators purpose. Even Satan. The Creator knows past present and future. We are all children of the Creator all of us no matter how different we are. Christ was a child of the Creator a very enlighten one I might add. Do I think Christ is the Creator I don't know but I will ask when I meet them?
All religions point to the Creator one way or another. Christ him self said in my Fathers house there are many dwellings. Do you really think there is only on path? I feel for every human being there is a path. Even Osama Bin Laden has his path.

But you seem to be saying that the living word of the living God is not fact! I think it is hard for a serious Christian to acept that!
That is why I call my faith a freethinking Christian. I am not caught up in all the rituals of religion. I can say a pray in my head. Because Christ teaches that we should go into a closet and pray. Christ Also teaches that the Creator also knows what we are going to pray before we pray. So for me religious ritual is for man sake not the Creator. The Bible is a book it contains stories, ancient Israeli law, some teaching of Christ, some teachings and opinions of Paul a man who never knew Christ the man that walked the earth. Also other than in the Bible there is no sign of Paul’s existence. (As far as I know)
Example the Bible makes reference to the 4 corners of the earth a globe has no corners.
A serious Christian or a blind Christian
Another thing I would like to touch on here if I may is something CG has posted about how the other great religious works have also lasted very long, and that the Bible seems to be dying.
No book ia alive they are just books.
CG, lets take the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount. Bible scholars believe that afther the children of Israel were being so disobedient and difficult to deal with, God gave them the 10 Commandments. They say He was in effect saying: "Let me show you all what it means to be holy as I am holy. You keep these 10 commandments". He knew full well they could not keep them (Who can?), so He was pointing them to His Son Christ who would come in the future. They would have to depennd on Christ alone to receive salvation and not on any laws which they can't keep!

Re the Sermon on the mount, Bible scholars say ALL the philosophy and ALL the psychology in exstence could not come close to the Sermon on the Mount to produce righteous living! So these two pieces in the Bible are very influential in the Christian world. And I understand that many of the laws of the land in western nations are based on the 10 Commandments!

CG, with your vast knowledge of other religions, can you think of any passages in some of those other religions which would have the kind of moral influence on mankind as the 10 Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount?

As you and Vicky probably know, I am not trying to be difficult or anything, I am just trying to seek knowledge. My knowledge of other religions is nil. Thank you.

Christ teaches an excilent way of life I do my best to follow his teachings. The rest of the Bible means nothing to me except a referance tool.

Christ freed us from the laws of the Jews. He full filled them. Now its time to follow Christ.

in the teaching of christ I am not the freak socities makes me out to be. Christ said there are those that would be born different from male and female. Matthew 19:12

Thanks CG. Will check out the Four Noble Truths and The Eight Fold Path.

One thought just came to me: The Bible predicts that conditions in the world will continue to get worse until that Great Day comes when the Prince of Peace will come to bring peace.

So, in a sense, has not all these great religions of old failed, because none of them has brought peace to the world?

If this is the case, then wouldn't this give great credibility that the Bible is truly the Word of God?

The peace is with in you. The Jews thought Christ came to free them from the Romans and with a wink of his eye they would then rule the earth. (The Jew justified genocide when they went into the so-called Promised Land) How many religions are used to justify murder? Watch the history channel Sunday night 8 pm "Witch Hunt" to see so called christian justice. Christ came to explain this life is a joke it means nothing compared to the big picture in the Creators eye. (So to say) Christ teaches us that haven is with in us.
Why do Christians fear death??? Why do they say "See you tomorrow God spare life" Or should the say God let life be. I can't wait for my life to be over. because then I will move on to a better place. (No I am not suicidal was once before I came to terms with my being transgender. The Creator has a reason for me to be here and I have the scars on my wrist to prove it.)

If you are talking about peace in the world (no wars etc.) then yes, all religions, including Christianity have failed. But I don't think that is the peace that all these religions are talking about, including Christianity.

The nature of the human is one of conflict. We have two major conflicts. One is with each other. We hate, we fight, we kill other for a number of reasons. The second is conflict within our own egos that drives us to do the things mentioned in the first conflict.

Religion does not, necessarily, bring peace to the world. It brings it to the human heart, one person at a time. It is the "fix" for the human ego. When Jesus, and others, said that they came to bring peace, that was the peace they were talking about, the stopping of the war within the human heart. That has not failed. There are millions upon uncounted millions who have achieved this peace. The problem is, there are many more millions who have not and cannot because they see religion as another weapon to add to their arsenal of weapons to use against others. They cannot see the peace religion offers. They have not experienced the death of the ego. The "Big Three" Judaism, Islam, and Christianity lead the world in using religion as a weapon. The "Big Three" acknowledge this with the greatest regret. Yet, no religion can claim "clean hands" here.

I don't know if you saw the TV show, "The West Wing" last Wednesday. President Bartlett called the Palestinians and the Israeli leaders to talk peace. There was tension in the air. There was one scene where all sides took a break to worship. Outside were the Palestinians, worshiping Allah. Inside were the Jews celebrating and worshiping Jehovah. It was a troubling scene because they were all worshiping the same God but their human egos got in the way. It stood in the way of worshiping together and to finding a solution to their problems. Their religions became a stumbling block, a thing that divided and wounded - not as it should be, a thing that mends!

There is no world peace. There never will be. But don't worry about it. Seek the peace in the heart. Christianity can do this, as can others, once we understand what the peace is that they are talking about - God's peace. Once found it lives in the human heart, not in the world.


Thanks CG, I agree with this. I believe I have achieved much of that peace. One thing though, you say that Judaism, Islam and Christianity lead the world in using religion as a weapon. I don't know much about Judaism and Islam, but it is difficult for me to understand how Christianity would do such a thing. [Unless you may be referencing some parts of the Old Testament where God Himself ordered that certain persons be put to death (including children, if I recall correctly). This is something that no one really seems to be able to explain!]. I can't believe true christians today would focus on this kind of practice. Even our own parliament with all their apparent shortcomings seem to regard capital punishment as barbaric and seem to want to discontinue it. [I myself don't agree with capital punishment, even though one of my own daughters was raped and murdered!].

Thanks Vicky, I have read your responses. Gradually I am understanding your views

You seem to take issue with my referring to God as a Him. As you know, the English Language is not exact in many ways and you can loosely use "him" to refer to females also. Sometimes women themselves refer to each other as "You guys", and the Bible many times uses the male pronoun "him" to also refer to females.

I believe that books can be said to be alive if they carry an inspirational message that would give the human heart a good feeling and help one to live a better life. That's my personal belief, which can probably also be in the category of English being used loosely, or as a figure of speech.

When the Bible uses expressions like "the four corners of the earth", and "the sun moving around the earth", though these statements are unscientific, maybe they were used for the understanding of the people during those times when the scientific facts were not yet known.

I agree that December 25 and Easter are Pagan holidays. It seems that some Christians are aware of this and some are not! And there are some Christians who don't celebrate them either. Some KNOW that the Bible states that the 7th day is the sabbath, but still yet regard the 1st day as the sabbath.

From your previous posts I notice that you don't seem to think highly of St Paul, who most Christians believe was the greatest Christian (other than Christ Himself) who ever walked the earth. He actually gave up his life for the gospel after his life was changed. I sometimes wonder why he was not trenslated to heaven like Elijah and Enoch!

While I am addressing you, I would like mention something which might shed some light on what is probably a kind of conflict between you and other Christians on this forum. I have a feeling you may already know this.

There are a number of places where the Bible just about condemn homosexuals and lesbians. (You also said that your status -- transgender is also in the Bible). Now here is the little messy dilemma. Scientists and medical doctors have evidence that many persons are born homosexual, lesbian and transgender. Even some of the young school children right in the Bahamas know this! And I believe many Christians know this also!

But therein lies the problem. It is hard for the average Christian to bring him or herself to accept this, as there is no preponderance of evidence in the Bible that persons are born that way! So their position will be to believe the Creator (ie the Bible) rather than man (ie the doctors and scientists).

It is very bad that this is so, and I just hope that there can be some kind of resolution to this problem -- there are probably persons of this status in every family; there are some in mine.

Thanks CG, I agree with this. I believe I have achieved much of that peace. One thing though, you say that Judaism, Islam and Christianity lead the world in using religion as a weapon. I don't know much about Judaism and Islam, but it is difficult for me to understand how Christianity would do such a thing. [Unless you may be referencing some parts of the Old Testament where God Himself ordered that certain persons be put to death (including children, if I recall correctly). This is something that no one really seems to be able to explain!]. I can't believe true christians today would focus on this kind of practice. Even our own parliament with all their apparent shortcomings seem to regard capital punishment as barbaric and seem to want to discontinue it. [I myself don't agree with capital punishment, even though one of my own daughters was raped and murdered!].

Thanks for your reply. First of all I must say I was shocked to read your words about your daughter. It must have been a terrible thing. Yet, even in the face of this you don't seek capital punishment. You indeed hold a great value to life - even the life of her assailant. You must be applauded for that.

You mentioned God ordering peoples death. This is a hard thing to understand, the cruelty of God. It has been the subject of much theological debate. I have read many of those debates, I have listened to many and none have come up with a good answer. The most repeated answer is that when God does something it becomes right - even if it does not appear to be right. It changes from wrong to right by the very act of him doing it. Another theory is that God is under no law - he is subject to no law. Therefore, his actions cannot be judged by any law. He cannot break the law of a higher authority because he is that higher authority. The way God speaks to Job in the latter part of the Book of Job seems to show this, "Where were you (Job) when I created...." God is the Judge not the judged.

I think you are right. A true Christian could not justify much of the things their faith (or in some cases their God) has done, and in some cases continues to do, to the long-suffering human race. But what is a true Christian? I am sure that the Priests of the Inquisition would have considered themselves true Christians. Some even prayed as the tortured people to death in the name of Christ.

To me, a true Christian is one that follows the teachings of Christ. He does not interpret the teachings, he just follows. His foremost thought is not to give harm, but to hold out the hand of love - especially to those whom one might consider sinners. In fact the worst the sinner, the farther out the hand of love should be stretched. Yet, this is not what is, or has been done, on a mass scale. Therefore, we must conclude that true Christians are few and far between!

The true Christians are out there. I have met many, some famous - most not. All have come through much pain and trial. All have had much doubt, all have had struggles with their faith, sometimes bitter struggles. All of that has forged them into a people with a distinctive view of life and of their fellow beings. Most of them are old! It takes time to understand! There seems to be a glow about them. They are not blind to the misuse of their faith, the vast misuse of their faith and they do nothing to add to that unfortunate situation.

I was once in the company of a group of people who were speaking to an old Nun. Someone asked her, "Because the word Christian has been so misused and abused by most of its followers, what other name would you like to be called by?"
She thought for a moment and said."Sinner!"
I thought that strange! She was far from a sinner but I had heard her use that name before in describing herself and her nuns. By the way, that old Nun was Mother Teresa. There was a real Christian! She did no harm, judged not and held out a hand to all. But most of all she saw herself as just a sinner, nothing special. Because of that she could be used by God for great things. The others who grab and take and kill and judge in the name of the faith cannot be used. They have gotten all they will ever get.

Thanks CG, I agree with this. I believe I have achieved much of that peace. One thing though, you say that Judaism, Islam and Christianity lead the world in using religion as a weapon. I don't know much about Judaism and Islam, but it is difficult for me to understand how Christianity would do such a thing. [Unless you may be referencing some parts of the Old Testament where God Himself ordered that certain persons be put to death (including children, if I recall correctly). This is something that no one really seems to be able to explain!]. I can't believe true christians today would focus on this kind of practice. Even our own parliament with all their apparent shortcomings seem to regard capital punishment as barbaric and seem to want to discontinue it. [I myself don't agree with capital punishment, even though one of my own daughters was raped and murdered!].

I feel I would like to comment on this. First I don't believe in the death penalty either and if I knew you I would have to shake your hand if you could not handel a hug from me. I am sorry to hear what happened to your daughter. Wow so sorry.
Lets say this how many people have committed atrocities and named it as ordered by their god.
Wow is not the Creator powerful enough just the think them out of existence. Sorry even the genocide in the Bible is not of the Creators doing and yet it is. For nothing can exist or happen with out the Creator having planed it.
But what would have happened if the Israelites lost the fight to get into the promised land. Who would have wrote the story how would it read.

Kill only to eat or to keep from being killed your self. And you are your brother keeper. If I saw someone harming/killing another and the only way to stop it is to kill the attacker then so be it they will die if I am there. To kill someone after the fact is wrong in my books.