Matthew 6
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
You only think you have free will. All is as it is and as it should be to teach us.


Those are requests Vicky, not statements.
Don't we still get lead into temptation after we pray?

Jesus is praying that God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.
Not stating that it does happen.

There are many things that happen daily that God does not want to happen,
but because of our freewill we are allowed to do things that God would not approve of. And ven though he can intervene, it is not always appropriate for God to intervene especially when it may cause him to reveal himself.

think about it, if God sent an angel to prevent a public murder from happening
then it would be obvious that God/angels exist if not that satan/demons exist.
We can't acknowledge the existence of one and refuse the other.

Well getting back to the point of proving that the bible is God's word; I don't think that there is a way to prove it is, or that it isn't. For those who believe that there is a creator, and also believe that the GOD described in the bible is how they perceive the creator would be, they may be led to believe that these words must be true. Lending help to that belief is the length of time the bible has been around, despite it's many revisions. And for those who find it hard to believe that the creator would have set such hard guidelines for us to follow, or make this world such a difficult place, when he could easily make all things well, they may not believe that GOD spoken of in the bible, is not the creator they believe in. Then there are those who don't believe in GOD so they definitely won't believe the bible is the word of GOD. But there are many things that are said or written, or may even happen, that we believe in, simply because it was said, written, or maybe happened once, although we weren't there to witness these events. But these cannot always be proven as factual. For example, people say often that they have been abducted by aliens, seen ghosts, and things of the sort. And sometimes they may even have "witnesses". Now who are we to tell them that they saw or did not see what they said they saw?....And if they were to write a book of their experiences, who are we to tell people not to believe in ghosts, or alien abduction etc.? And how can we prove them wrong? I mean there is a posibility that these things happened isn't there? Bottom line is that it is up to each individual to believe what they think is the truth. And no other person has a right to tell that individual that he/she is wrong for their belief. And the individual neither has the right to force what they believe on others; they may spread their belief to others telling them why they believe to try to encourage others, but it is not right for them to infringe on others' beliefs. And i would hope that people would have the dignity and morals to know that a belief in our present time, where harm/discrimination against others is practiced is not righteous by any doctrine. I hope my answer is understandable. :dancer2:

Those are requests Vicky, not statements.
Don't we still get lead into temptation after we pray?

Jesus is praying that God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.
Not stating that it does happen.
Prove it.
There are many things that happen daily that God does not want to happen,
Prove it
but because of our freewill we are allowed to do things that God would not approve of. And ven though he can intervene, it is not always appropriate for God to intervene especially when it may cause him to reveal himself.

think about it, if God sent an angel to prevent a public murder from happening
then it would be obvious that God/angels exist if not that satan/demons exist.
We can't acknowledge the existence of one and refuse the other.

Then in your opinion the Creator is not all powerful and all knowing. The Creator is not able or did not create perfection.

Well getting back to the point of proving that the bible is God's word; I don't think that there is a way to prove it is, or that it isn't. For those who believe that there is a creator, and also believe that the GOD described in the bible is how they perceive the creator would be, they may be led to believe that these words must be true. Lending help to that belief is the length of time the bible has been around, despite it's many revisions.
There are other religions and wirttings much older than the Bible.
And for those who find it hard to believe that the creator would have set such hard guidelines for us to follow, or make this world such a difficult place, when he could easily make all things well, they may not believe that GOD spoken of in the bible, is not the creator they believe in. Then there are those who don't believe in GOD so they definitely won't believe the bible is the word of GOD. But there are many things that are said or written, or may even happen, that we believe in, simply because it was said, written, or maybe happened once, although we weren't there to witness these events. But these cannot always be proven as factual. For example, people say often that they have been abducted by aliens, seen ghosts, and things of the sort. And sometimes they may even have "witnesses". Now who are we to tell them that they saw or did not see what they said they saw?....And if they were to write a book of their experiences, who are we to tell people not to believe in ghosts, or alien abduction etc.? And how can we prove them wrong? I mean there is a posibility that these things happened isn't there? Bottom line is that it is up to each individual to believe what they think is the truth. And no other person has a right to tell that individual that he/she is wrong for their belief. And the individual neither has the right to force what they believe on others; they may spread their belief to others telling them why they believe to try to encourage others, but it is not right for them to infringe on others' beliefs. And i would hope that people would have the dignity and morals to know that a belief in our present time, where harm/discrimination against others is practiced is not righteous by any doctrine. I hope my answer is understandable. :dancer2:

I appreciate the fact that there was no other objection to my last post. However I ask the question, can someone name 2/3 religious/spiritual writings that are older than the bible? I will have a response to the posts relevant to my question.

I appreciate the fact that there was no other objection to my last post. However I ask the question, can someone name 2/3 religious/spiritual writings that are older than the bible? I will have a response to the posts relevant to my question.


Some Buddhist writings
Hindu writings, many of them.
The oral traditions of the Aborigines
The writings of Zarathustra who founded what is believed to be the first "moral" religion.

Jesus is praying that God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.
Not stating that it does happen.

Prove it.

*it is obvious that God's will is not happening, and many will be rejected on judgement day.

---------

Originally Posted by bsmbahamas
There are many things that happen daily that God does not want to happen,

Prove it

Gays being allowed to marry in some states is proof, gay sex is further proof, it is an abomination to God after all.

---

Originally Posted by bsmbahamas
but because of our freewill we are allowed to do things that God would not approve of. And ven though he can intervene, it is not always appropriate for God to intervene especially when it may cause him to reveal himself.

think about it, if God sent an angel to prevent a public murder from happening
then it would be obvious that God/angels exist if not that satan/demons exist.
We can't acknowledge the existence of one and refuse the other.

Then in your opinion the Creator is not all powerful and all knowing. The Creator is not able or did not create perfection.

The bible never said that God created perfection, in fact it says that Jesus Christ, who was God in the flesh, is the only man ever said to be perfect.

We were created in a perfect world, which we then proceeded to corrupt.
Creating something perfect does not make it indestructable.

had to edit this post to provide a link:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i1/history.asp

more proof that the earth was perfect before man messed it up.

Jesus is praying that God's will is done on earth as it is in heaven.
Not stating that it does happen.

Prove it.

*it is obvious that God's will is not happening, and many will be rejected on judgement day.
This is no proof this is faith. I asked you to prove it. not to demonstrate your faith.
---------

Originally Posted by bsmbahamas
There are many things that happen daily that God does not want to happen,

Prove it

Gays being allowed to marry in some states is proof, gay sex is further proof, it is an abomination to God after all.

I just knew you were going to say this. Again you are quoting your faith not fact. It is a fact that homosexuality is against the laws of Liviticus. It is aslo a fact that the laws of Liviticus are for the Israelites on Mount sini. Fact I am not an Isrealite and the Bahamas is not Mount Sini.
Fact there are other religions that celabrate homosexuality. How ever most of them have gone by the wayside as the followers were mudrered by Chistians.
How ever gay marriage is still practiced in many cultuers to this day.
---

Originally Posted by bsmbahamas
but because of our freewill we are allowed to do things that God would not approve of. And ven though he can intervene, it is not always appropriate for God to intervene especially when it may cause him to reveal himself.

think about it, if God sent an angel to prevent a public murder from happening
then it would be obvious that God/angels exist if not that satan/demons exist.
We can't acknowledge the existence of one and refuse the other.
I believe one is not with out the other good and bad are 1. For us as we see things, We can't know the good of the Creator with out knowing the bad of the Creator.
Then in your opinion the Creator is not all powerful and all knowing. The Creator is not able or did not create perfection.

The bible never said that God created perfection, in fact it says that Jesus Christ, who was God in the flesh, is the only man ever said to be perfect.

We were created in a perfect world, which we then proceeded to corrupt.
Creating something perfect does not make it indestructable.

Then which one is it:
The Creator is not perfect?
The Creator did not Create perfection?
The Creator is in capable of creating perfection?

had to edit this post to provide a link:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i1/history.asp

more proof that the earth was perfect before man messed it up.

Some Buddhist writings
Hindu writings, many of them.
The oral traditions of the Aborigines
The writings of Zarathustra who founded what is believed to be the first "moral" religion.


Buddism itself was not founded until 500 BC; Hinduism came after the Aryans defeated the Dravidians in 1500 BC hence, around 1400BC; I asked about writings, not "traditions" show me Aborigine writings about their faith; Zarathustra was "believed" to have founded Zoroatrism, which is dated back to about the 13/14th century BC, no one knows when he was born, or what time he lived in, though some speculate he was born before Plato - still, this puts his suspected "writings" around the time when Hinduism would have been starting as well.

In all this, my point is that all of these writings you speak of, date back to a certain period of time that come long after the times spoken of in the bible, the bible refers to times of creation and times long before Christ. I am not trying to justify the legitimacy of the Christian faith in all this though; my point is to prove the age of the bible, which arguably to some i guess, is older than all of these writings.

Hence, my final point is that based on the info I just admitted, some people do believe that the bible is the word of the creator.

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

Buddism itself was not founded until 500 BC; Hinduism came after the Aryans defeated the Dravidians in 1500 BC hence, around 1400BC; I asked about writings, not "traditions" show me Aborigine writings about their faith; Zarathustra was "believed" to have founded Zoroatrism, which is dated back to about the 13/14th century BC, no one knows when he was born, or what time he lived in, though some speculate he was born before Plato - still, this puts his suspected "writings" around the time when Hinduism would have been starting as well.

In all this, my point is that all of these writings you speak of, date back to a certain period of time that come long after the times spoken of in the bible, the bible refers to times of creation and times long before Christ. I am not trying to justify the legitimacy of the Christian faith in all this though; my point is to prove the age of the bible, which arguably to some i guess, is older than all of these writings.

Hence, my final point is that based on the info I just admitted, some people do believe that the bible is the word of the creator.


The Buddhist have a creation story as do the Navaho indian all were spoken like the creation in the Bible.

Buddism itself was not founded until 500 BC; Hinduism came after the Aryans defeated the Dravidians in 1500 BC hence, around 1400BC; I asked about writings, not "traditions" show me Aborigine writings about their faith; Zarathustra was "believed" to have founded Zoroatrism, which is dated back to about the 13/14th century BC, no one knows when he was born, or what time he lived in, though some speculate he was born before Plato - still, this puts his suspected "writings" around the time when Hinduism would have been starting as well.

In all this, my point is that all of these writings you speak of, date back to a certain period of time that come long after the times spoken of in the bible, the bible refers to times of creation and times long before Christ. I am not trying to justify the legitimacy of the Christian faith in all this though; my point is to prove the age of the bible, which arguably to some i guess, is older than all of these writings.

Hence, my final point is that based on the info I just admitted, some people do believe that the bible is the word of the creator.

There is the point, "times spoken of in the Bible." The Bible suggests it is the oldest, therefore it must be? Just because the Bible speaks about a creation does not mean it was written not long after. In fact Genesis was likely written during the time of the Babylonian exile. 586 - 516 BC as it borrows from the Babylonian Scriptures. So, as you can see the Hindu writings and most of the others had been around before the Hebrews put pen to paper.

The Creation story, the flood, all come from the Babylonian text "The Epic of Galgamesh" Most serious Biblical scholars admit to that, at least in part. The Epic of Galgamesh is perhaps, the oldest written story on Earth. Penned around 2750 and 2500 BC. Perhaps it is even older.

The Bible can claim to be an old book, but it is not the oldest and it has borrowed heavily from other written traditions, as others have borrowed from it. There is nothing wrong with that, that is how religion evolves.

You are trying to use the Bible to prove itself. I know that is the Christian way but it is kind of like going into a bank and when asked to identify yourself you take out a mirror, look into it and say, "Yes, that's me!"

P.S. As for the Aboriginal traditions. You will have to go to Australia and see the cave drawings. It is a pictorial record.

There is the point, "times spoken of in the Bible." The Bible suggests it is the oldest, therefore it must be? Just because the Bible speaks about a creation does not mean it was written not long after. In fact Genesis was likely written during the time of the Babylonian exile. 586 - 516 BC as it borrows from the Babylonian Scriptures. So, as you can see the Hindu writings and most of the others had been around before the Hebrews put pen to paper.

The Creation story, the flood, all come from the Babylonian text "The Epic of Galgamesh" Most serious Biblical scholars admit to that, at least in part. The Epic of Galgamesh is perhaps, the oldest written story on Earth. Penned around 2750 and 2500 BC. Perhaps it is even older.

The Bible can claim to be an old book, but it is not the oldest and it has borrowed heavily from other written traditions, as others have borrowed from it. There is nothing wrong with that, that is how religion evolves.

You are trying to use the Bible to prove itself. I know that is the Christian way but it is kind of like going into a bank and when asked to identify yourself you take out a mirror, look into it and say, "Yes, that's me!"

P.S. As for the Aboriginal traditions. You will have to go to Australia and see the cave drawings. It is a pictorial record.

"Yep thats me" is a good one CG :shaky:

Ok, cool......I'm just saying WHY some people will contest that the bible is the word of the creator....I already stated in my first response that i don't think it can be proven either way, that it is or it isn't. Let's just make that clear. I think it is all on a basis of faith, I'm just saying why I think some believe that the age of the bible means that it is true......cool?...cool,... :cool:

Ok, cool......I'm just saying WHY some people will contest that the bible is the word of the creator....I already stated in my first response that i don't think it can be proven either way, that it is or it isn't. Let's just make that clear. I think it is all on a basis of faith, I'm just saying why I think some believe that the age of the bible means that it is true......cool?...cool,... :cool:

OK. Got your point but I must also add that there is not a fragment of the "original" writings that make up the Bible. Everything is copies of copies so there is nothing to date!

The same might be said of other religious writings but somehow that does not bother them. It is only the Christian who must cry "me first! Me only!" :hammer: