First off I would like to make a statement on religion and the law:
1. Religion is not just religion, but the words of our God
2. Religion has been set aside by us, form the words of men inspired by God
3. All laws, has and will always be, by products of spiritual codes of ethics, and laws of the societies religious doctrine
4. The bible has clear definitions on the price of homosexuality, and perversions in general.
5. The Bible Torah and Qurann, the three major religions of the western hemisphere have clear definitions on sexuality.
6. Religious doctrine’s are the first history books, and are the best references on human nature, and our uncanny ability to fall victim to the past

My job here today is not to decide your spiritual beliefs, but to give to you the facts on societal culture, our relationship to God, the law, and explain to you why the debate on sexuality is more important to us than just your choice.

Facts
1. There is a God, just as we all came from our mother and a father, some entity initiated our existence, and is still present, even homosexuals know it that is why they are fighting to the tooth and nail to be recognized by the church and remain there.
2. The idea of man and woman is to pro-create.
3. God saw fit to make eve for Adam, homosexuality throws the gift of God, “sex between a man and a woman because he created she for he”, directly in our masters face, and reject the gift of our masters grace
4. Sodom and Gomorrah was a place, and was destroyed, and has been recorded not only by the bible, but desert texts have been found describing the nature of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the history from inception and destruction
5. Jesus does speak on homosexuality, and the need to follow the laws of Caesar, and the prophets before.
6. Leviticus 18:22, and 20:13 both describe homosexuality as “an abomination.”
7. Romans 1:26-27 is very specific when Paul says, “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.”
8. In the torah, homosexual acts are forbidden, not homosexual orientation.
9. In the qoran, homosexuality is strictly forbidden, and is mentioned more times than in any other religious doctrine, and is punishable by death in some cases.

Verses that relate to homosexuality in the qoran; VI --- 86; VII -- 80-84; XI -- 77-83; XV --57-77; XXI--74-75; XXVI--160-175; XXVII--54-58: XXIX--26-35; XXXVII--133-138; LI--31-37; LIV--33-39; XI--81; XV--60; LXVI--10

My stand is, that homosexuality is none of the businesses of ordinary people, and we should stay out of it, but in all fairness homosexuals should keep us out of it.
“I understand that it is only fair that a union common law and homosexual unions must be recognized by the State to protect the property rights and intellectual rights of all men and women.” And if they require to be made a union by the state to protect their rights, then so be it…IT IS ONLY FAIR AND JUST.
But, most of us are not and should not be willing to bend our entire rulebook at the whim of any minority and feel that the rule of the majority, with special rights to all human need must be upheld.
Sexuality is chosen, just as we have the will to choose what we wear, what we eat and what we say.
We all must live by the actions we choose, but, I didn’t choose to be black, I didn’t choose to be born on May 13 1979, I didn’t choose to weak eyes,
But I did choose to say what I felt was right, have sex with whomever I chose to have sex with, without it being the business of the entire world, and I have lived with my choices and the consequences of my choices.
I do not, and will never complain or boast about the women I sleep with, or complain that I have a problem with being criticized for having slept with anyone in particular.

The homosexual culture sees fit to indoctrinate, and pollute the minds of people, by giving us too much information on their behavior and practices, when it is only God, and themselves who they have to answer to, and that is wrong. The wrongful spread of propaganda whether it be good or bad is wrong, it is against the civil laws of our lands, it is against the civil codes passed on to us by our God, and it is an invasion of our human rights, and civil liberties. Homosexuals should respect the rights of other persons in their society, and spare us the details that we particularly, do not care for.
Our God made it abundantly clear to us that it is of “our” choice to follow him, but there are consequences to those who choose otherwise.
The gays should respect our wishes, and let majority of the world handle their own affairs, without the fear of being bombarded with propaganda and explicit details of the nature of their relationship.

First off I would like to make a statement on religion and the law:
1. Religion is not just religion, but the words of our God
*snip* blah blah, silly bible stuff *snip*


Introduction



Christians consider the existence of their God to be an obvious truth that no sane man could deny. I strongly disagree with this assumption not only because evidence for the existence of this presumably ubiquitous yet invisible God is lacking, but because the very nature Christians attribute to this God is self-contradictory.




Proving a Universal Negative



It is taken for granted by Christians, as well as many atheists, that a universal negative cannot be proven. In this case, that universal negative is the statement that the Christian God does not exist. One would have to have omniscience, they say, in order to prove that anything does not exist. I disagree with this position, however, because omniscience is not needed in order to prove that a thing whose nature is a self-contradiction cannot, and therefore does not exist.



I do not need a complete knowledge of the universe to prove to you that cubic spheres do not exist. Such objects have mutually-exclusive attributes which would render their existence impossible. For example, a cube, by definition, has 8 corners, while a sphere has none. These properties are completely incompatible: they cannot be held simultaneously by the same object. It is my intent to show that the supposed properties of the Christian God Yahweh, like those of a cubic sphere, are incompatible, and by so doing, to show Yahweh's existence to be an impossibility.




Defining YHWH



Before we can discuss the existence of a thing, we must define it. Christians have endowed their God with all of the following attributes: He is eternal, all-powerful, and created everything. He created all the laws of nature and can change anything by an act of will. He is all-good, all-loving, and perfectly just. He is a personal God who experiences all of the emotions a human does. He is all-knowing. He sees everything past and future.

God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.



One Bible verse which Christians are fond of quoting says that atheists are fools. I intend to show that the above concepts of God are completely incompatible and so reveal the impossibility of all of them being true. Who is the fool? The fool is the one who believes impossible things and calls them divine mysteries.




Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection



What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.




Perfection Begets Imperfection



But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.



What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.




The Freewill Argument



The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.



Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.



Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?



The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.




All-good God Knowingly Creates Future Suffering



God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.




Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins



God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.




Belief More Important Than Action



Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus. It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.




Perfection's Imperfect Revelation



The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.



No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.




Contradictory Justice



One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.




Contradictory History



The Bible contradicts itself on matters of history. A person who reads and compares the contents of the Bible will be confused about exactly who Esau's wives were, whether Timnah was a concubine or a son, and whether Jesus' earthly lineage is through Solomon or his brother Nathan. These are but a few of hundreds of documented historical contradictions. If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?




Unfulfilled Prophecy



The Bible misinterprets its own prophecies. Read Isaiah 7 and compare it to Matthew 1 to find but one of many misinterpreted prophecies of which Christians are either passively or willfully ignorant. The fulfillment of prophecy in the Bible is cited as proof of its divine inspiration, and yet here is but one major example of a prophecy whose intended meaning has been and continues to be twisted to support subsequent absurd and false doctrines. There are no ends to which the credulous will not go to support their feeble beliefs in the face of compelling evidence against them.



The Bible is imperfect. It only takes one imperfection to destroy the supposed perfection of this alleged Word of God. Many have been found. A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.




The Omniscient Changes the Future



A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.




The Omniscient is Surprised



A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. The Bible says that God experiences all of the emotions of humans, including anger, sadness, and happiness. We humans experience emotions as a result of new knowledge. A man who had formerly been ignorant of his wife's infidelity will experience the emotions of anger and sadness only after he has learned what had previously been hidden. In contrast, the omniscient God is ignorant of nothing. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.



We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything. Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.




The Conclusion of the matter



I have offered arguments for the impossibility, and thus the non- existence, of the Christian God Yahweh. No reasonable and freethinking individual can accept the existence of a being whose nature is so contradictory as that of Yahweh, the "perfect" creator of our imperfect universe. The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.



Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:



"You are a fool for denying the existence of the IPU. You have rejected true faith and have relied on your feeble powers of human reason and thus arrogantly denied the existence of Her Divine Transcendence, and so are you condemned."



If such arguments are good enough for Yahweh, they are good enough for Her Invisible Pinkness.

As for me and my house, we shall choose reality.

Unceremoniously stolen from the pen of Chad Docterman

Joe you are entitled to your opinion, but I would like for you to answer for the millions like me who believes in the existence of God.
1. Where we as humans came from?
2. How is it that we are able to reason even things like this?
3. How was the Universe created?

Telling me the answers like others have push via science that there was an explosion that resulted in every thing is highly unlikely, since if there was nothing in the begining how can one get an explosion from nothing. Don't you think it is just illogical for planet like ours to spin in space around a fire ball (sun) that brings warm temperatures, that induces the very existence of life. Don't you think that it is highly unlikely that even the ants, who crawled the earth are here with a purpose and did not just happen. Don't you think that it is highly unlikely that MAN could have just happen, evolve over years from a tap pole to what he is now?
I tell you Joe when I look at my fingerprints that is not similar in appearance to any other on this planet, as I think about my ability to think independently from any one else, and be the only person who is thinking what I am thinking in the entire world I can’t help but see the magnificence of the existence of man and he could never have happen as a result of a mistake, there must have been a God somewhere.

You have reason out the existence of GOD unfortunately you can not help but do it like any other man with the reasoning of a man’s mind, which is limited. In all of your reasoning to question the existence of God you have use the logic of man to explaiHow ever we are told by scriptures that man can not even begin to comprehend the mind and thoughts of God. We have also been told by scriptures that there are some mysteries that we would never know and be able to comprehend. So, Joe you can not even begin to reason out the why in GOD. A friend told me one day that, because man is now unraveling the mysteries of the DNA and genetics they are proving the none existence of GOD. I told him that when man is able to make another man from dust then I would say they have unraveled the mystery of the creation. Yes they can clone humans from cells, but those cells must first exist for them to do so. They are incapable of doing it with out the material called human or animal tissue. So if it can be done by man now with all of his knowledge, how can I believe that it just happen, without some divine intervention. One must have never existed in this form as man to think or even believe after seeing the complex beautiful nature of the universe and come to the conclusion that the existence of God is a fairytale.

Joe you are entitled to your opinion, but I would like for you to answer for the millions like me who believes in the existence of God.
1. Where we as humans came from?
I have no idea.
2. How is it that we are able to reason even things like this?
Ditto
3. How was the Universe created?
Ditto^2

The problem with this argument, is that you are trying to prove that a very complex system (your christian god) exists because there are some rocks flying around a star.

I can at times believe that there is something magical or spiritual up there that had a hand in creating everything we see around us, but that _IN NO WAY_ means that it is this christian god that we speak of.

Man O man, we sure have something on our hands with this thread. Yk2bad is trying to deal with the situation of homosexuals -- then -- BAM! suddenly Joe goes into the existence/non existence of God.

Don't get me wrong Joe, I respect you and your thoughts, etc, but I also think you are being deceived. When we are being deceived, we just don't and can't know it! We would be the last person on earth to know we are being deceived.

WHY? Simple: If we KNOW we are being deceived, we would just snap out of it, that is, we would "catch ourselves" and we would just NOT allow ourselves to be deceived!

Joe puts me in mind of an old Englishman I used to work with who seemed to have had atheistic beliefs. And at that time I myself used to be thinking along those lines, which was during my teen years.

But one thing that Englishman used to always say to me was: "Demos, you have GOT to believe in SOMETHING!"

bb359, you have given a pretty good answer to Joe's theory. One other thing I believe you could say to your friend who talked about how our knowledge of DNA will help prove the non existence of God: tell him if or when man ever attempts to make man from the dust of the earth, first, MAKE HIS OWN DUST!

Someone once said that a true atheist, deep down in his inner man (his spirit) believes there is a God. But some outside force (probably Satan, himself) keeps deceiving him into thinking otherwise. So there is always this great big battle going on in his mind, which is difficult, if not impossible, for him to control!

Joe, with all your scientific knowledge and intelligence, when you look at the earth and observe all the beauty and order of its creation; when you think of the multitude of things in the universe that man cannot understand ( and probably will never be able to understand in this age!), don't you believe that there just must be an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful Being (Almighty God) Who put the whole thing together!?

(Will give my views later on the topic y2kbad raised)

Great Demos

Great Demos, you wrote "Don't get me wrong Joe, I respect you and your thoughts, etc, but I also think you are being deceived. When we are being deceived, we just don't and can't know it! We would be the last person on earth to know we are being deceived." Taking what you say as true, is it possible that the Christian is being deceived? Or just plan wrong - after all as you say, "We would be the last person on earth to know we are being deceived." Leave room to consider it could work both ways.


"..... when you look at the earth and observe all the beauty and order of its creation; when you think of the multitude of things in the universe that man cannot understand ( and probably will never be able to understand in this age!), don't you believe that there just must be an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful Being (Almighty God) Who put the whole thing together!?"

Order and beauty? Perhaps to an extent but when I hear that argument I am reminded of the story of the Pastor who was talking to the Farmer. As he observed the orderly rows of corn and the beauty of the rustic farm he said "It is wonderful what you and God have done with this land!" The Farmer replied, "Yes, but you should have seen the mess it was in when he had it all to himself!"

Great Demos, you wrote "Don't get me wrong Joe, I respect you and your thoughts, etc, but I also think you are being deceived. When we are being deceived, we just don't and can't know it! We would be the last person on earth to know we are being deceived." Taking what you say as true, is it possible that the Christian is being deceived? Or just plan wrong - after all as you say, "We would be the last person on earth to know we are being deceived." Leave room to consider it could work both ways.


"..... when you look at the earth and observe all the beauty and order of its creation; when you think of the multitude of things in the universe that man cannot understand ( and probably will never be able to understand in this age!), don't you believe that there just must be an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful Being (Almighty God) Who put the whole thing together!?"

Order and beauty? Perhaps to an extent but when I hear that argument I am reminded of the story of the Pastor who was talking to the Farmer. As he observed the orderly rows of corn and the beauty of the rustic farm he said "It is wonderful what you and God have done with this land!" The Farmer replied, "Yes, but you should have seen the mess it was in when he had it all to himself!"


CG, let me see if I can clear this up a bit. I believe what is causing this first point to seem a bit muddled is that you are taking it out of context. You just have to consider the following Paragraph where I explained WHY.

And when you talk about the possibility of the Christian being deceived, If you mean generally, I guess it is possible for ANYONE to be deceived. (Remember, even Solomon allowed some wicked women to deceive him into worshiping false gods). But I DON'T believe a person is being deceived for believing in the exixtence of Almighty God!

On the second point about the farmer, as the Bible says, God hates laziness, and that He uses us (our hands and feet) to do things. He works through people. So I believe that even in the garden of eden, Adam and Eve had to work. Hope this helps.

(CG, in reading some of your threads, and more or less, kind of 'getting to know' you through what you say, I would like, if I may, to ask you something that has more or less puzzled me. I remember you saying that you used to be a Christian, and that sometimes you would give talks at churches. What I could not fathom is why would one gave up Christianity for another religion? Am not trying to pry or be personal, just looking for a little enlightenment, thank you).

Great Demos

(CG, in reading some of your threads, and more or less, kind of 'getting to know' you through what you say, I would like, if I may, to ask you something that has more or less puzzled me. I remember you saying that you used to be a Christian, and that sometimes you would give talks at churches. What I could not fathom is why would one gave up Christianity for another religion? Am not trying to pry or be personal, just looking for a little enlightenment, thank you).

Great Demos


Great Demos, you asked a question that many of my Christian friends have asked and it is always difficult for me to answer because I fear I might give offence. First of all I ask them, "Who said I gave up on Christianity?" I believe, and have taught, that there are many roads to faith. Christianity is but one of them but it is not, at this time, a road that I am comfortable traveling. (However, I do visit Christian Churches from time to time.)

My big problem with Christianity is that it is so intolerant!!! It is often a religion of hate and destroy, neatly covered in a blanket of love. Even a quick glance at the history of the faith will show this to be true. It is religion that demands uniformity (which is strange for a faith that has thousands of different expressions.) It must destroy, or bring under subjection, all that oppose it, and it sees everything as opposing it. There is no room in the world for the Christian and the "other." (Happily, most Christians do not see things this way now, but it is still "on the Books" so to speak.)

Christianity is "the new kid on the block" religiously speaking, yet it claims to be the only way. I have lived and practiced many religions and I can see that God, and truth, is in them all - it is just expressed in a different form. However, this is not a view that a Christian can support.

Another problem is that Christianity tries to make religious metaphor into facts and demands that everyone see it their way. For example, the Virgin Birth. Most Christians must take this as a fact! It really happened and it only happened once, with Christ. Yet, most world Saviors have a Virgin, or unusual birth - The Buddha was born from his Mother's side. She was, in a dream, impregnated by being touched on her heart, by a white Elephant sent from the heavens. Buddhists don't see this as a fact, they see it as a story that shows that the Buddha was a special person, sent on a special task to show love (which is believed to come from the heart.) All religions are rich with these kinds of stories.

If you saw the movie "The Passion of the Christ" You will have been struck by the fact that this is a religion of blood, a religion in need of blood. Even its follower's sins cannot be forgiven without the blood of God's son being brutally extracted. It is strange that a God of love needs such pain and blood.

Buddhism, on the other hand does not need blood. All it wants is for the believer to awaken to their true Buddha Nature that lies within us all. It does not need to destroy other religions to get that. I have known a number of people who practice Buddhism and "another" religion at the same time. Buddhism has no problem with that - the "other" religions do! When Buddhism comes to town it does not demand the death of your religion - if you are happy with it fine.

Buddhism takes joy in differences. It sees life as a garden with many kinds of flowers. It really values life in all forms. Most Buddhist are vegetarians, they don't want to even kill an animal to live - but if you do eat meat that is your business, the Buddhist would not be offended or interfere. Buddhist don't get easily offended - they seldom interfere.

Have said all that, let me sum up by saying - Buddhism "speaks" to my mind, my soul, my heart, and my body. It does not make exaggerated claims about itself. It does not demand that I force others to believe as I do. It asks nothing of me but to awaken. It is religion as religion should be - a matter of conscience between the believer and "God," however one sees that god to be. It is a "live and let live" religion, I like that!

Great Demos, you asked a question that many of my Christian friends have asked and it is always difficult for me to answer because I fear I might give offence. First of all I ask them, "Who said I gave up on Christianity?" I believe, and have taught, that there are many roads to faith. Christianity is but one of them but it is not, at this time, a road that I am comfortable traveling. (However, I do visit Christian Churches from time to time.)

My big problem with Christianity is that it is so intolerant!!! It is often a religion of hate and destroy, neatly covered in a blanket of love. Even a quick glance at the history of the faith will show this to be true. It is religion that demands uniformity (which is strange for a faith that has thousands of different expressions.) It must destroy, or bring under subjection, all that oppose it, and it sees everything as opposing it. There is no room in the world for the Christian and the "other." (Happily, most Christians do not see things this way now, but it is still "on the Books" so to speak.)

Christianity is "the new kid on the block" religiously speaking, yet it claims to be the only way. I have lived and practiced many religions and I can see that God, and truth, is in them all - it is just expressed in a different form. However, this is not a view that a Christian can support.

Another problem is that Christianity tries to make religious metaphor into facts and demands that everyone see it their way. For example, the Virgin Birth. Most Christians must take this as a fact! It really happened and it only happened once, with Christ. Yet, most world Saviors have a Virgin, or unusual birth - The Buddha was born from his Mother's side. She was, in a dream, impregnated by being touched on her heart, by a white Elephant sent from the heavens. Buddhists don't see this as a fact, they see it as a story that shows that the Buddha was a special person, sent on a special task to show love (which is believed to come from the heart.) All religions are rich with these kinds of stories.

If you saw the movie "The Passion of the Christ" You will have been struck by the fact that this is a religion of blood, a religion in need of blood. Even its follower's sins cannot be forgiven without the blood of God's son being brutally extracted. It is strange that a God of love needs such pain and blood.

Buddhism, on the other hand does not need blood. All it wants is for the believer to awaken to their true Buddha Nature that lies within us all. It does not need to destroy other religions to get that. I have known a number of people who practice Buddhism and "another" religion at the same time. Buddhism has no problem with that - the "other" religions do! When Buddhism comes to town it does not demand the death of your religion - if you are happy with it fine.

Buddhism takes joy in differences. It sees life as a garden with many kinds of flowers. It really values life in all forms. Most Buddhist are vegetarians, they don't want to even kill an animal to live - but if you do eat meat that is your business, the Buddhist would not be offended or interfere. Buddhist don't get easily offended - they seldom interfere.

Have said all that, let me sum up by saying - Buddhism "speaks" to my mind, my soul, my heart, and my body. It does not make exaggerated claims about itself. It does not demand that I force others to believe as I do. It asks nothing of me but to awaken. It is religion as religion should be - a matter of conscience between the believer and "God," however one sees that god to be. It is a "live and let live" religion, I like that!


Ok CG, your account has left me spellbound, has almost persuaded me to become a Buddhist. I certainly would not be offended for receiving an answer to a question I have asked. At least now I have a good idea where you are coming from. You say that there are many ways to faith, but Jesus Himself said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. He instructed Nicodemus that he MUST be born again, and history seems to indicate that Nicodemus eventually became one of His disciples.

When you say that Christianity is so intolerant, I take it you mean as it is practised in some churches today, NOT as it has been taught by Christ. My church teaches that God, His Son, and Holy Spirit are perfect Gentlemen -- They don't force anything on anyone! This is why when you see a photo of Christ knocking on a door [of a person's heart], there is never a lock or handle on the door: He is too much of a Gentleman to force Himself in! (I understand that if a Moslem witnesses to you to accept their faith and you refuse, their "Bible" authorises them to put you to death!). I really never knew that Christians were so extremely intolerant and brutal toward other religions: the most I would hear them say at times is that all the other religions are false and they worship false Gods or dead Gods. [Or, does all this intolerance applies to Christians in OTHER countries, not the Bahamas?)

Just as in any other organization, there are problems in the Christian church. St Paul found this out -- he had a number of issues with the other saints. In my church I notice coldness and a lack of love among some of the members and our pastor preaches about it many times. In the book of Revelation, Christ instructed John to send letters to the 7 churches -- there were only 2 of the 7 that Christ was fully pleased with, and I understand that that is the same percentage of churches in the world today that Christ is pleased with, only 2 out of 7!!! So those "Christians" who are displaying all that wickedness you mentioned are definitely not conducting themselves in a manner befitting Christians who are truly followers of Christ!

I know a number of persons who walk in integrity and decency even moreso than myself -- I don't even like to tell them about Christ because they really and truly seem to be living the Christian life! Moreso than many Christians!

They don't attend church and they never admit to being born again. One of them said because of what he saw some priests used to do when he was an altar boy, it messed up his mind -- he lost complete faith in church because of that! Most Christians would say that these persons are lost and would not go to heaven, but I have a problem with that. Having such decent minds and hearts, I believe the Holy Spirit will one day work on their conscience and encourage them to be born again. Then again, these persons might have already accepted Christ but just don't believe in disclosing some things to everyone. There are some persons who are secretive.

You talk about ".......a God of love needing such pain and blood...." There ar so many things especially in the old testament about God that we will probably never understand: all the violence, etc, that was allowed. At one point He got so angry with the children of Israel, He wanted to destroy them all, but Moses intervened. It looks a bit strange to me that Almighty God would allow Moses to change His mind, so to speak! One of the most puzzling thing to me is when he told Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac. Now I guess God would just have had to destroy me, but I don't think I could bring myself to do something like that! I even hate to hear pastors preach about it! But God Himself said: "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isa 55: 8-9).

I take joy in diferrences also, and I would think most intelligent people would. I also am something of a vegetarian, as Genesis 1:29 and 3:18 instructs us that seeds, nuts, fruits, vegetables, etc, shall be our meat. I would eat a little fish at times -- a diet of plant food alone seems to cause me to lose too much weight!

Well, CG, thanks for all the info, who am I to cast stones on your beliefs which are helping you so much. One day we would all come to a fuller understanding of what religion is all about.

Great Demos

I have numbered my comments in blue so if you wish to respond just write the number so the posttest do get to long.
First off I would like to make a statement on religion and the law:
1. Religion is not just religion, but the words of our God
1. If you are going to use this as a justification to socially and thru law restrict another person rights to life and happiness I say Prove it.
2. Religion has been set aside by us, form the words of men inspired by God
2. see 1.
3. All laws, has and will always be, by products of spiritual codes of ethics, and laws of the societies religious doctrine
3. Now here is a good one. So what religion says don't drink and drive. So I say lets use the Navajo or Inuit people base for laws. By the way they honor same sex union.
4. The bible has clear definitions on the price of homosexuality, and perversions in general.
4. How about all the other clear definitions on the price of the laws in the Bible you don’t follow??? Lev. 19:19 by Lev. 19:27 who says which laws in the Bible we will and will not follow. If you want to choose which laws you follow so can I.
5. The Bible Torah and Qurann, the three major religions of the western hemisphere have clear definitions on sexuality.
5. They are the 3 with the biggest mouths and the biggest pockets. Not to talk about the biggest killers. Christians saw to it that the Native Americans were destroyed or they would be the dominant religion in the western hemisphere.
6. Religious doctrine’s are the first history books, and are the best references on human nature, and our uncanny ability to fall victim to the past
6. Not so there are writings that are just as old and not religion based. You just assume there are no others. Many Egyptian hieroglyphs tell of the life of the people and have no religion in them.

My job here today is not to decide your spiritual beliefs, but to give to you the facts on societal culture, our relationship to God, the law, and explain to you why the debate on sexuality is more important to us than just your choice.

Facts
1. There is a God, 7. I say again Prove it. Just as we all came from our mother and a father, some entity initiated our existence, and is still present, 8. I say again Prove it even homosexuals know it that is why they are fighting to the tooth and nail to be recognized by the church and remain there.
9. Uh sorry you are wrong we don’t need to be recognized by the clubs you call churches.
This is you arrogance thinking you have something we want. We are standing up defending our selves against discrimination based on religious BELIEFS. Beliefs are something you believe to be fact without proof. Example the world is flat or the sun goes around the earth. Science has proven other wise. Sconce has also proven that homosexuality and gender dyshporia (common term transgender) is inborn. Just as being left handed is inborn.

2. The idea of man and woman is to pro-create.
10. All men and women that don’t want to or can’t pro-create should not have sex or get married.
3. God saw fit to make eve for Adam, homosexuality throws the gift of God, “sex between a man and a woman because he created she for he”, directly in our masters face, and reject the gift of our masters grace
11. Knock knock anyone home uh where did Cain find his wife???
12. If the Creator did not create homosexuals and transgender then where did they come from??
4. Sodom and Gomorrah was a place, and was destroyed, and has been recorded not only by the bible, but desert texts have been found describing the nature of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the history from inception and destruction 13. Very good where can we find proof of these desert texts? Are they from the time of Sodom and Gomorrah? How many years after Sodom and Gomorrah were they written? Are they related to the Bible? Also please find the chapter and verse in the King James Version (just in case I don’t have your version of the Bible) and post it here???
5. Jesus does speak on homosexuality, and the need to follow the laws of Caesar, and the prophets before. 14. Please find the chapter and verse in the King James Version (just in case I don’t have your version of the Bible) and post it here???
Yes Jesus did speak about the prophets
6. Leviticus 18:22, and 20:13 both describe homosexuality as “an abomination.”
15. Can you follow all the laws of Leviticus?? Judge not lest you be judged by the same measure you judge others. HHHMMM who said that I wonder if this His teaching is more important than the teachings of Moses????
7. Romans 1:26-27 is very specific when Paul 16. HHmm Paul not Christ. Do you follow all of Paul’s rules?? Who do you pray to Paul or Christ?? Says, “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.” 17. A letter to the Romans about the practices in the worship of their gods.
8. In the torah, homosexual acts are forbidden, not homosexual orientation. The Torah is the Old Testament.
9. In the qoran, homosexuality is strictly forbidden, and is mentioned more times than in any other religious doctrine, and is punishable by death in some cases.

Verses that relate to homosexuality in the qoran; VI --- 86; VII -- 80-84; XI -- 77-83; XV --57-77; XXI--74-75; XXVI--160-175; XXVII--54-58: XXIX--26-35; XXXVII--133-138; LI--31-37; LIV--33-39; XI--81; XV--60; LXVI—10

18. Ok so you have 3 religions coming from the same area of the world saying basically the same thing about homosexuality and other things. 2 of them have basically the same writings Torah Koran the 3rd is the Torah plus a New Testament.
19. What about all other religions of the world? Most of them accept homosexuality and have same sex marriage. Most all hold transgender as special people and honor them.

My stand is, that homosexuality is none of the businesses of ordinary people, and we should stay out of it, but in all fairness homosexuals should keep us out of it.
20. My stand is homosexuals and transgender are just as ordinary as heterosexual people. It just that we are taught to believe they are less ordinary and thus less normal thus less than human and thus less equal. Science has proven that homosexuals and transgender is inborn. The question is will you accept the world is round or do you still think it is flat? It was a Christian belief that if you did sail off the earth you would fall into hell. Christopher Columbus and space travel have proven it wrong. Science!!!
“I understand that it is only fair that a union common law and homosexual unions must be recognized by the State to protect the property rights and intellectual rights of all men and women.” And if they require to be made a union by the state to protect their rights, then so be it…IT IS ONLY FAIR AND JUST. 21. Thinking out side of the box again very good.
But, most of us are not and should not be willing to bend our entire rulebook at the whim of any minority and feel that the rule of the majority, with special rights to all human need must be upheld. 22. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Sexuality is chosen, just as we have the will to choose what we wear, what we eat and what we say.
23. So you think you just wake up one morning and say I think I will be homosexual or transgender today, like picking which doughnut you will eat with your coffee. 24. Then why did you choose heterosexuality?? Think about this now; can you choose to be a homosexual? We are not talking about going out and just having sex with someone of the same sex, But to be in love with them wanting them as a life partner.
25. Transgender issue. Can you want to change you gender identity, to want to live and appear as the opposite gender. Would you ever consider putting sharp cutting shears between your legs and with a quick cut remove that which makes you male. Or in the case of a woman remove your breast??? I know people who have done it.
26. Why would an ordinary (as you say) person choose to be homosexual or transgender? 27. Why would they risk social condemnations for a chocolate doughnut? When having a chocolate doughnut will cause you to be cut off from your family, friends will most likely cause you to lose your job; can lead to violence against you.
28. If you think it is so simple prove it. Lets see you BB choose to be homosexual or transgender.
We all must live by the actions we choose, but, I didn’t choose to be black, I didn’t choose to be born on May 13 1979, I didn’t choose to weak eyes, 29. I did not choose to be transgender I just am. I knew I was different since the 4th grade. I did not just wake up one morning after 35 years of life and say oh I want to live as a woman today. I have wanted to be female since I knew there was a difference in gender. I learned how to be boy very fast. As a child I remember being told if you can kiss your elbow you can become a girl or vice versa. I remember putting my arm in a stair railing and pulling my self around to kiss my elbow. Can you imagine the pain, one time I came so close I could feel my breath on my elbow as the tears of pain and failure rolled down my face.
But I did choose to say what I felt was right, have sex with whomever I chose to have sex with, without it being the business of the entire world, and I have lived with my choices and the consequences of my choices.
I do not, and will never complain or boast about the women I sleep with, or complain that I have a problem with being criticized for having slept with anyone in particular.

The homosexual culture sees fit to indoctrinate, and pollute the minds of people, by giving us too much information on their behavior and practices, 30. Give me examples of the behavior and practice we have given you. When it is only God, and themselves who they have to answer to, and that is wrong. The wrongful spread of propaganda whether it be good or bad is wrong, it is against the civil laws of our lands, it is against the civil codes passed on to us by our God, 31. Which civil codes?? and it is an invasion of our human rights, and civil liberties. 32. So then the rightful spread of propaganda is ok?? Homosexuals should respect the rights of other persons in their society, and spare us the details that we particularly, do not care for. 33. Same thing for heterosexuals. What details are you talking about???
Our God made it abundantly clear to us that it is of “our” choice to follow him, but there are consequences to those who choose otherwise.
The gays should respect our wishes, and let majority of the world handle their own affairs, 34. And those of us that are different should not care if we are treated less equal. Without the fear of being bombarded with propaganda and explicit details of the nature of their relationship. 35. How about the propaganda of the heterosexuals, who use religion and the Creator to make those of us that are different less equal just because they believe something with out proof.
36. No matter how many or how long people believe something it can never make it right. There has to be proof. If not it is nothing but a belief. Example for how many years and how many people (the majority) believed the world was flat. How many believed the sun went around the earth. We still say sunrise meaning the sun moves but it’s the rotation of the earth the sun does not go around the earth.

Post #2 right on Joe Baboon

Joe you are entitled to your opinion, but I would like for you to answer for the millions like me who believes in the existence of God.
1. Where we as humans came from?
2. How is it that we are able to reason even things like this?
3. How was the Universe created?

Telling me the answers like others have push via science that there was an explosion that resulted in every thing is highly unlikely, since if there was nothing in the begining how can one get an explosion from nothing. How do you know the Creator did not make the big band as it is called. Don't you think it is just illogical for planet like ours to spin in space around a fire ball (sun) that brings warm temperatures, that induces the very existence of life. Don't you think that it is highly unlikely that even the ants, who crawled the earth are here with a purpose and did not just happen. Don't you think that it is highly unlikely that MAN could have just happen, evolve over years from a tap pole to what he is now?
I tell you Joe when I look at my fingerprints that is not similar in appearance to any other on this planet, as I think about my ability to think independently from any one else, and be the only person who is thinking what I am thinking in the entire world I can’t help but see the magnificence of the existence of man and he could never have happen as a result of a mistake, there must have been a God somewhere.

You have reason out the existence of GOD unfortunately you can not help but do it like any other man with the reasoning of a man’s mind, which is limited. In all of your reasoning to question the existence of God you have use the logic of man to explaiHow ever we are told by scriptures that man can not even begin to comprehend the mind and thoughts of God. Ok so you think these men that worte these scriptuers understood the mind of the Creator. Do you think all these preachers know the mind of the Creator?? They are human just like you or I. We have also been told by scriptures that there are some mysteries that we would never know and be able to comprehend. So, Joe you can not even begin to reason out the why in GOD. A friend told me one day that, because man is now unraveling the mysteries of the DNA and genetics they are proving the none existence of GOD. I told him that when man is able to make another man from dust then I would say they have unraveled the mystery of the creation. Yes they can clone humans from cells, but those cells must first exist for them to do so. They are incapable of doing it with out the material called human or animal tissue. So if it can be done by man now with all of his knowledge, how can I believe that it just happen, without some divine intervention. One must have never existed in this form as man to think or even believe after seeing the complex beautiful nature of the universe and come to the conclusion that the existence of God is a fairytale.

Great Demos Post 5 CG is so right.

.......One day we would all come to a fuller understanding of what religion is all about.Great Demos

There is much in your reply that I could answer but you wrote something at the end that is very interesting. You said, "Well, CG, thanks for all the info, who am I to cast stones on your beliefs which are helping you so much. One day we would all come to a fuller understanding of what religion is all about."

That's it!! That's it!! "One day we would all come to a fuller understanding of what religion is all about." My fear is that most Christians, and they are not alone in this, do not understand religion at all - let alone what it is all about!

Religion has been used to build political structures, to gain land, wealth and to justify the most horrible acts that have every been visited on mankind. Religious structures have understood that if they can link their faith to health, wealth, progeny and victory the money comes rolling in. Christianity, is not alone in this, but it has been in the forefront. But that is not religion! That is "self-help" at best! Even walking in integrity and decency is not what religion is all about. I know Atheist who do that!

Religion is one soul connecting to something bigger, that's it! From that connection flows understanding and tolerance and love. If one does not have those three things, in abundance, one has not made a connection. I have known peoples of all faiths who have made that connection and when you ask them what their faith is they are almost reluctant to say, Christian or Buddhist, or Hindu, or whatever. Their faith has been a "vehicle" to help them make that connection. Once the connection is made the religion takes on a lesser status. It might well be still practiced but the connection is the thing - not the religion. Have I lost you here? In short, if one can say, I love my brother who is a Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever, but they are going to roast in hell because they do not embrace my faith, then one has not made the connection.

The next question is if Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but thought me," did he make the connection? If he really said that then the answer is no! But every religion has added that "clause" to their beliefs, after the fact. They want to draw people to the faith and keep them there. There is even a Buddhist writing that says "There is no way but the Way of the Lotus." But that was added after the fact too. The Buddha never said it. Yet, both the Buddha life and the Christ life show that a connection was made! The connections may differ but they are there none the less. Both offer a "way" to understanding and to help us in our connecting. We should be about that connection, not damming others or judging, or telling other how to live. I think Jesus might well be ashamed of many of his followers, as the Buddha might well be ashamed of many of his followers - Buddhist are not perfect either! We all make mistakes when we think we are the only game in town and when we have not made that all important connection with something bigger than ourselves - that is religion and it has no name!

Vicky you and I have no issues, so be it if the big bang was GOD my point only was that he exist. Secondly I agree not even the men who I believe were inspired by God and wrote the Holy Scriptures knew all of his mysteries or understood him; after all they were just men like you and I. Note also that most of these men reach points where they question his instructions or acts. However this does not nullify the fact that what they wrote is believe by millions around the world as the inspired word of GOD.