On the surface, it would seem that there are so many, many, laws to follow that no one would know what to follow. In reading the Old Testament and especially the Law in the Torah (the first 5 books of the O.T.) we must consider Man(kind)'s condition and what God had communicated, and how He communicated. During this time we call the dispensation "Law". At first we didn't have any knowledge of right and wrong and thus we were in the dispensation of "Innocence". Following our fall, Man(kind) followed his own mind as to what was deemed right and wrong: the dispensation of "Conscience". In the post-flood era God then gave Man(kind) the "Law" through His prophets.
From an historical standpoint, it should be noted that for the most part, in the beginning, our Bible was not written: it was from an oral tradition, akin to the African "Girot" who learns history as a musical or poetic narrative from an elder. Contemporary history was then added to the narrative and it was the duty of the story-teller to train up someone to take his place. Taking this in consideration to the way of intellectual Jewish thinking was to have another source "document" (or oral tradition) called the Talmud which serves as a commentary to sacred texts. Much like the sacred texts, this source had strata (layers) that was built up from previous thinkers much like a brick wall is made. It has been sugguested that sometimes the 2 had been intwined as one. I would agree that this is debatable!!
On the otherhand we see that it is impossible for us to live under "the Law", with its prohibitions, restrictions, limitations and punishments: therefore "Grace" has now come in. Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil ... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)
So for us as Christians, the law has not changed. The purpose of the Law was to reveal our sinful nature, wheither conscienious or unconscience, whiether through commission or omission. Grace (through Jesus Christ) has brought us freedom from the bondage of the Law. There are somethings that God has changed for us: e.g., dietary laws. This was changed as well as an addional meaning of Gentiles being a part of "the Way" (the early Church) in Acts 11:7.
Otherwise since the Law has not changed, sin is still sin. Homosexuality is still a prohibited act, that even Jesus had alluded to in Luke 17:32: "Remember Lot's wife", who disobeyed God by looking back at a burning Sodom and Gomorrah***
(***those that have an ear to hear, let them hear)
So I must concur what the Holy Bible says, but as I have stated in another posting, we are to hate the sin, but love the sinner. Wheither the sin be of a disobedient child, a theif, we are to rebuke and correct, not condemn and execute.
As an added note, the best correction is through example. Let everything be done decently and in order.

Addressed To: Justice

Originally Posted by Justice
To Wendall Lewis and other anti-gay marriage people:

Opinions are only a sum total of what people have been taught. Most of the opinions here reflect the Bahamian society. But are most of the opinions here the correct opinions or just opinions?

The Oxford Modern English Dictionary defines opinion as follows: " a belief or assessment based on grounds short of proof." I put it to you justice, that the evidence given by both Wendell and bb359 are packed with document references to the source proof. That source proof being the Bible, a most reputable book. Over centuries law makers have used this reputable source as the governing pillars and fabric of their society. Even Historians today reference the Bible for information to archaeology findings, because of its remarkable accuracy to time and facts. You open your address questioning their facts as opinion ; Having read your statements I see no evidence of reference to a reputable source. Thus deeming your piece of literature as The oxford modern dictionary( Oxford university press 1992, Reprinted 1993, 1994 ) defines " ... based on grounds short of proof. One can only contend that the very question raised in your opening statement levied against the articles of Wendell and bb359 gives verdict to your own writing ....that they are ....just opinions. Very week ones I might add !!!!!!!

Hi JCF101
I have what should be a simple thing for you to do. If you can I will speak out against homosexuality and transgender if not you speak up for equal rights for all, even homosexuals and transgender and same sex civil union.

what to take it on???

JCF101

I REST MY CASE ON CHRIST THE SOLID ROCK I STAND ALL OTHER GROUND IS SINKING SAND!!!!! HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!

On the surface, it would seem that there are so many, many, laws to follow that no one would know what to follow. In reading the Old Testament and especially the Law in the Torah (the first 5 books of the O.T.) we must consider Man(kind)'s condition and what God had communicated, and how He communicated. During this time we call the dispensation "Law". At first we didn't have any knowledge of right and wrong and thus we were in the dispensation of "Innocence". Following our fall, Man(kind) followed his own mind as to what was deemed right and wrong: the dispensation of "Conscience". In the post-flood era God then gave Man(kind) the "Law" through His prophets.
From an historical standpoint, it should be noted that for the most part, in the beginning, our Bible was not written: it was from an oral tradition, akin to the African "Girot" who learns history as a musical or poetic narrative from an elder. Contemporary history was then added to the narrative and it was the duty of the story-teller to train up someone to take his place. Taking this in consideration to the way of intellectual Jewish thinking was to have another source "document" (or oral tradition) called the Talmud which serves as a commentary to sacred texts. Much like the sacred texts, this source had strata (layers) that was built up from previous thinkers much like a brick wall is made. It has been sugguested that sometimes the 2 had been intwined as one. I would agree that this is debatable!!
On the otherhand we see that it is impossible for us to live under "the Law", with its prohibitions, restrictions, limitations and punishments: therefore "Grace" has now come in. Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets, I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil ... Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Matthew 5:17-18)
So for us as Christians, the law has not changed. The purpose of the Law was to reveal our sinful nature, wheither conscienious or unconscience, whiether through commission or omission.
Please give me chapter and verse where you read this. What I understand of the Tora and or the Old Testament the purpose was to build the nation of Isreal and to sepperate the isrealites for the rest of the people on earth.
Leviticus 27 34.
These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
Deuteronony 26 15-19
Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
This day the LORD thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:
And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken.
Grace (through Jesus Christ) has brought us freedom from the bondage of the Law. There are somethings that God has changed for us: e.g., dietary laws. This was changed as well as an addional meaning of Gentiles being a part of "the Way" (the early Church) in Acts 11:7. Written by Paul a man who only claims he is a disciple.
Otherwise since the Law has not changed, sin is still sin. Homosexuality is still a prohibited act, that even Jesus had alluded to in Luke 17:32: "Remember Lot's wife", who disobeyed God by looking back at a burning Sodom and Gomorrah*** This reference is about disobedience not homosexuality.
(***those that have an ear to hear, let them hear)
So I must concur what the Holy Bible says, but as I have stated in another posting, we are to hate the sin, but love the sinner. Wheither the sin be of a disobedient child, a theif, we are to rebuke and correct, not condemn and execute.
As an added note, the best correction is through example. Let everything be done decently and in order.


Let me ask you all. How many of you believe in unicorns? Are they real or myth??

HI,JCF101,
THANK YOU FOR YOUR OPINION ON THIS SUBJECT,EVEN IF IT IS WRONG.
WHEN ONE DON'T BELIEVE THE VERY WORD OF GOD ALMIGHTY NOTHING I SAY WOULD HELP.BUT REMEMBER WE ALL WILL BE JUDGE BY GOD FOR WHAT WE DO IN LIFE.INCLUDING A SINNER MAN LIKE ME.THANK GOD FOR HIS SON JESUS AND WHAT HE DID FOR US.JESUS IS LORD AMEN.

HI,JCF101,
THANK YOU FOR YOUR OPINION ON THIS SUBJECT,EVEN IF IT IS WRONG.
WHEN ONE DON'T BELIEVE THE VERY WORD OF GOD ALMIGHTY NOTHING I SAY WOULD HELP.BUT REMEMBER WE ALL WILL BE JUDGE BY GOD FOR WHAT WE DO IN LIFE.INCLUDING A SINNER MAN LIKE ME.THANK GOD FOR HIS SON JESUS AND WHAT HE DID FOR US.JESUS IS LORD AMEN.

That is your belief. No one has the right to step on it and call it wrong, so why do you step on others beliefs and call them wrong?

I could, if I twisted it around a bit, make a case from my Scriptures (Buddhist) that you are wrong. I could use other Scriptures as well, but that would be wrong and very unproductive.

Its Not My Belief, Its My Life,am Sorry If You Think Am Calling Your
Belief Wrong.but If You Can't See Your Mistake.again Nothing I Can Say Would Help,have a good day.

Its Not My Belief, Its My Life,am Sorry If You Think Am Calling Your
Belief Wrong.but If You Can't See Your Mistake.again Nothing I Can Say Would Help,have a good day.

.....but If You Can't See Your Mistake.again Nothing I Can Say Would Help,have a good day.

I might say the say to you but I will not. Have a good day to. May the Buddha life come to you.

Dear Fellow Christians,
May the peace of the Holy Ghost be with you this day!

According to
Mt 7 vs 6
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

In other words teaching about the kingdom (God's order and Decree) should be given in accordance with the spiritual capacity of the learners.......

It beats me, I wonder where I would have been if GOD made them(Adam & Eve) "Man and Man" Thank God for being who he is.

Dear Fellow Christians,
May the peace of the Holy Ghost be with you this day!

According to
Mt 7 vs 6
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

In other words teaching about the kingdom (God's order and Decree) should be given in accordance with the spiritual capacity of the learners.......

It beats me, I wonder where I would have been if GOD made them(Adam & Eve) "Man and Man" Thank God for being who he is.

Thank you for the input Kwabena123.
While it is true what you replied the Bible still teaches us to correct and rebuke. John 3:16 says that "For God so loved the world (not Christianity or the church) that He gave His only son. How much more can we do for the world?

Christ commissioned us to preach the gospel to these very same people until He returns. He commanded us to “Go out into world (not Christianity or the church). This is a hard pill to swallow when it is the world that persecutes us and hates us but this is same pill that Christ had to swallow on the cross.

Let us imitate God.

[QUOTE=bb359]Yep Vicky though I was finish with this but had to answer these questions you post for Wendell the following is my take on this issue.

1 Wrong here Wendell Gays and Lesbians don’t (let me repeat it again) don’t care about “Holy Matrimony” they feel if the Christians want to keep it in your churches please do so. Keep it there please and leave them alone. Gays and lesbians are just as happy to keep it out of church because that is your and other Christian’s special interest. So please keep it there. Your interpretations of your faith are just that your interpretations and your faith, Its not mine or the gays and lesbians I know. Christian belief and human rights are different things. Thus gays and lesbians should be allowed to be united under civil law.

You are wrong Vicky, from what I have seen on the news, gays and lesbians are fighting there cities constitution and marriage laws. In fact in some parts in the United States they have gone so far as to question the intent of these laws at the Supreme Court level. There is no question that there first option is marriage only settling for some kind of unions if they can’t get marriage.

No bb359 the gays and lesbians I know don't care if they go to a church or not to get the same legal rights as heterosexual married couples. The news puts on news; news that sells news that will keep the advertising money coming in. Yeah you might have 1 or 2 gay and lesbians looking for a church wedding but most don't care. They just want civil union because they respect the rights of Christians to have their churches their way. The Gay and lesbians say keep you Holy Matrimony yes keep it to your selves and in your churches

2 Have a question no religious leader wants to answer but may be you could please. Why did Christians kill hundreds of thousands of men women and children in the name of Christ? Many killed for simply being left-handed or because they could make medicine from herbs. They would be tortured and then most of the time burned alive.

Not relevant to the question. Understand that not all persons who say they are Christians are Christians. We are told by scriptures that Jesus said that not all who say lord, lord are of his but in the last day those who are real should be revealed. So persons may have killed in the name of Christ or Christianity that does not mean that Christ condone or sanction that kind of behavior and it don’t justifies homosexual marriage in any form. Two wrong don’t make a right.

Is Pope Innocent 8th Christian enough.
http://www.macha.free-online.co.uk/7day-extracts/malleus-malificorum.html
The point is Christians make mistakes. Even the Pope makes mistakes. Will you make laws just because these men say so because of their interpretation?nt is Christians make mistakes. Even the Pope makes mistakes will you make laws just because these men say so because of their interpratation.

3 Please note you second word “believe” Believe dose not make it a fact. How many people believed the world was flat and if you sailed out to far you would fall off???

I am Sorry Vicky but according to our faith as Christian belief is why we discuss what Christ did and continue to do, if we don’t believe this then our faith is dead and Christ did not die for our sin. So believing that the world was once flat to find out that it was round does not weaken our faith that Christ is and that the bible is the undisputable word of God.

Fact no matter how much or how many believe something it does not make it fact. Sorry believing can never equal fact.....

4 The Bible reads Genesis 1: 31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. “
Chapter 2: 1“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all the host of them.
The Creator said it was good.

If you had understand what the brother showed you in his writing you would have noted that all was changed after Adam and Eve disobeyed GOD. Yes God did call all Good, but note he still threw both Adam and Eve out of the Garden, indicating that all did not remain good. This showed you that God wanted noting to do with evil even if it meant destroying what he had intended for Good. The Very Good mentioned after the sixth day does not mean that things to come would be very good, rather it meant that God was satisfied with what he had produce. This is similar to an artist or carpenter standing back and admiring his work.

Is the Creator all knowing and all powerful. Does the Creator know past present and future????

5. male and female he created them. Why does it not read 1 male and 1 female he created them??

Not relevant; does not support neither denies the posting. The fact that can not be question is that when he made women he gave her to the man not another woman or a man to another man.

This is what it says in the creation story. Please note "story" see question 6.

6 Genesis 4:16-17 “And Cain went out form the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden and Cain knew his wife and she conceived and bare Enoch and he builded a city and called the name of the city after his son Enoch”

Once again no relevance to the posting; if any thing it only supports the argument that marriage was ordain for a man and woman because if they had subscribe to the desires of some today they would not have been able to conceived children in those days.

Sorry the point is there were other humans besides Adam and Eve?
How can the only man and woman have 2 sons 1 is killed the other runs away and finds a wife. Duh where did she come from? That is the relevance. The creation story is just that. What about the dinosaurs they roamed the earth millions of years before man?


7 What did Enoch find for a wife?

Not relevant see the answer for 6. Enoch found a wife not a husband.

see above

8 What inhabited the city?
Monkey's????

Not relevant once again, but you should make note that men had no time limit on life in those days, so we are talking about men who may have lived for hundreds of years, can you imagine the amount of children they could have gotten, I think enough to create an entire city. Thanks to normal sexual practices that can bring forth life.

Again this is only something you beleive I say give us fact. Oh and the Bible is not fact it is faith so it does not count.

9 Or were there other humans?

See the answer to 8.

10 Where did they come from??
Matthew 19:12 “For there are some eunuchs which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there are eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it let him receive it.”

I think you are asking two questions here the first one was already answered; they were born from a heterosexual relationship.
The Second question God created all mankind those who are born with cancer, deformities, and diseases, however you would note that in the beginning it was not his intent for man to live in this state, but as for those who are born in this state it goes back to the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Christ who the bible refers to as the second Adam gave us a new opportunity to correct these condition in a place that we can live eternally and never have to worry about sickness or diseases. Not because some one is born in a condition means that GOD love them any less. When Jesus was confronted with this question by the disciples when a man was brought for healing, Jesus told them that neither this man or his parents’ sins had made him so but rather he was created so for the Glory of GOD. This simply mean that he was created thus so that he may be healed in the presence of others and GOD can get glory from his healing. Can you imagine what a testimony of Christ that man would have given after being healed?



11 Who created the born eunuch if only male and female were created??

Eunuchs in the bible reference refer to Men who were unable to have children. This is a result as it is today because of birth defects due to disease, medication, or surgical procedure. Then there are those who chose like the Catholic priest to become Eunuchs because of there conviction or Religion. Finally there are those who were made eunuchs because they were castrated by others.

Sorry not so eunuch refers to a person known as a hermaphrodite from the Greek goddess hermorphrodita. A person with ambiguous sex. This person can have what looks like a penis and a virgina at the same time and many venations. There are humans that are born with male and or female sex but the gender identity in the brain is the opposite. The same effect that does not veralize the sex affects the brain. It can also affect the brain only. Result gender dysphoria. (What I am) Ask your Dr. about it.

12 Woe is me shame and scandal in the family. What about adultery? How many women that have been divorced that have been remarried in “Holy Matrimony” in Christian Churches. Mark 10:12 And if a woman shall put away her husband and be married to another, she committeth adultery. (I don’t mean to be picking on women here Its a Bible reference.)

I am not attempting to justify divorce but you should read Matthew 5:32, Jesus said here that who so ever put away his wife, except for fornication, causeth her to commit adultery if she marries again. So Jesus made room for divorce and remarriage but only under the circumstances of unfaithfulness in marriage. I am glad that you saw here that Jesus in this context was talking about marriage between a man and a woman, for this reason he says a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife and they shall be come one flesh. Understand that God made man and woman so unique they are able to become one flesh and out of that one flesh comes other flesh, woman and woman can’t do this neither can man and man.

As I said keep your word marriage gays and lesbians are looking for the same legal rights as marraige. I don't think it far that 2 people (don't care what sex they are) live together for years and they are denied access to their partner when the other is sick. Wrong wrong wrong period wrong!

13 Since when does “that we may know them” equal homosexual love?

When God would destroy an entire nation for it; It is no question that to know was met sexual desires but in the event you are referring to it met to have sex with the angels, because not only was the men strike blind the entire city that practice this act was destroyed.

this to know comes from the Hebrew word Yadha. So 943 time in the Bible yadha means to get aquantied and this 1 time it means homosexual love. Sorry just can't happen that just streching it to far. I say it means what it says to know.

14 The angels did not want to have sex with the men. Thus not consenting adults.

God condemns this act whether it is done with consenting adults or not. (That is your beleif not fact) I can never justify adultery because I did it with a consenting female, it is still wrong in the eyes of God. If God wanted homosexuality to be practice by consulting adults he would have made provisions in the scriptures for man to marry man and likewise woman to marry woman, since there is no such direction given there is no need to assume that it is lawful by the word of GOD.

If you belive the Bible is the only communacation the Creator gave to human kind. I do not. Again I say the Bible is faith not fact.

15 Lets say the men of Sodom wanted to rape the angels. Rape is not consentual sex it is an act of violence. Ask anyone who has been raped and see if it was cousentual sex.

Neither is sex outside of marriage. I think the writer of the Sodom story wanted us to see the kind of sin and nature of the men of that city having desires to go with other men, not the fact that they would rape or have unconsensual sex. See the answer above.

Violence is violence the people of Sodom were a mean and cruel people. They respected no one. Rape is not sexual desire its power violent power over another.

16 So please explain how Genesis 19:5 “that we may know them” equals homosexual love??

Genesis 19:8,”Behold now I have two daughters which have not known man; let me I pray you bring them out unto you and you do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.”

The act that these men wanted to perform was so vile and disgusting until Lott was willing to offer his daughters instead.

Sorry Lot knew the people of Sodom were a violent mean and cruel people. Lot knew that if he put theses men his guests that snuck into the city. The men of Sodom would do harm to them. Now here you must understand Middle Eastern custom. Once a person enters you home as a guest you must protect them even if it means your death to do so. Example If President Bush went into Ben Laden house as a guest he would not be harmed. All Bush would have to do is walk in and say I am your guest and he is safe. How ever Bush would have to follow all the rules of the house. Bin Laden would not want a curse of death on his house. I know this for a fact my Grandfather Parents were born and lived in Lebanon in the town of Rash ayah until they migrated to Canada. I still practice this custom to this day.

17 Is this how God wants us to protect ourselves from the homosexuals by offering to let them rape our virgin daughters?

The answer to this follows in the proceeding scriptures with God’s response that leaves the men blind.

Not revalent make no referance to homosexuality.

18 The story is found in Judges 19:14-28. (to long to wirte word for word) It bears a striking resemblance to the Sodom story -- a traveler arrives at the city (in this case, Gilbeah).

By using to Know again from this scripture just proves that it means to have sex. Why else would this man offer his concubine? No further explanation needed.

Sorry it does not prove they wanted consensual sex. Because if so Lot and this other old man would not fear the people out side. All that had to be said is no and the crowed would have walked away. If a group of men gang rape a woman is it consensual after she says no?? If a group of men gang rape a man is it consensual after he says no??


19 If Lot and this old man knew they mobs where male homosexual what would be the point of offering females to them?

Lot and the man you mention in the other story knew that these men wanted sex from there desire “to know”, so they attempted to offer them something that is more natural.

But the men still raped the concubine and killed her. Was that consent??
I will just remind you 943 time not meaning sex in the Bible and once it does???

20 Here are all the reference to Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible please point out the reference to homosexuality.

No time to go through them all do that for you in a later writing. But it is amazing don’t you think that there are so much reference to this one event, could it be that the message here is to warn other nations against the path that Sodom took?

Here let me help you.
Genesis 13:13: But the men of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. (Nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Genesis 18:20: And the LORD said, because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous. (Nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Genesis 19:13: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD. (Nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Deuteronomy 29:17-26: And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which [were] among them:...[And that] the whole land thereof [is] brimstone, and salt, [and] burning...like the overthrow of Sodom...which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath...Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? What [meant] the heat of this great anger? Then men shall say, because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers...For
They went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and [whom] he had not given unto them:
(Just idolatry and false gods; nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Deuteronomy 32:32-38: For their vine [is] of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes [are] grapes of gall, their clusters [are] bitter...And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted, Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, [and] drank the wine of their drink offerings? Let them rise up and help you, [and] be your protection.
(Idolatry again; nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Isaiah 1:9-23: Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.... How is the faithful city become a harlot! It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: Thy princes [are] rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them. (hmmm...murder, greed, thievery, rebelliousness, covetness; nope, no homosexuality there)

Isaiah 3:8-15: For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings [are] against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory. The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not. Woe unto their soul! For they have rewarded evil unto themselves. For ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil
Of the poor [is] in your houses. What mean ye [that] ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor?
(Mistreating the poor; nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Isaiah 13: 11-19: And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.... And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' Excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. (Haughtiness, yes, but no homosexuality.)

Jeremiah 23:10-14: For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth...For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.... And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem a horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from h is wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. (Adultery, lying by priests and prophets; nope, no homosexuality in there)

Jeremiah 49:16-18: Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, [and] the pride of thine heart...Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof. As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah. (Evil and pride, but still no homosexuality)

Jeremiah 50:2-40: Declare ye among the nations...say, Babylon is taken, Bal is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces.... thou hast striven against the LORD...for she hath been proud against the LORD...As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbor [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. (There’s that idolatry and pride again, but still no homosexuality)

Lamentations 4:3-6: ...the daughter of my people [is become] cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness. The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, [and] no man breaketh [it] unto them. They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills. For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was over thrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her. (Cruelty, failure to tend the young and the poor, but still no homosexuality)

Ezekiel 16:49-50: Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw [good]. (Well that’s pretty clear, huh? But what are we missing in that list? Oh yeah...homosexuality)

Amos 4:1-11: Hear this word, ye kin of Bashan, that [are] in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink. I have overthrown [some] of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. (Oppression, mistreating the needy...still no homosexuality)

Zephaniah 2:8: I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached my people, and magnified [themselves] against their border. Therefore [as] I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah...This shall they have for their pride, because they have reproached and magnified [themselves] against the people of the LORD of hosts. (There’s that pride again, and the intimation of inhospitality, but still no homosexuality)

Well, so much for the Old Testament's linkage of Sodom with homosexuality. Maybe the fundamentalists were referring to something in the New Testament? Let's see...

Matthew 20:11: And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into a house, salute it.... And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.... Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment, than for that city. (Jesus said these words; they draw a comparison to inhospitality, but there's still no homosexuality there)

Matthew 11:19-24: The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.... Then began [Jesus] to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! Woe unto thee, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.... And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been
Done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.... But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the Day of Judgment, than for thee. (They ridiculed Jesus and treated him with utmost inhospitality, refusing to repent...but still no mention of homosexuality)

Mark 6:10-11: And he said unto them, In what place so ever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment, than for that city. (Another repetition of the instruction against inhospitality, but still no mention of homosexuality)

Luke 10:10-12: But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say. Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. (There's that inhospitality reference again, but still no homosexuality mentioned)

Luke 17:26-29: And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] al l. (still no mention of homosexuality)

2 Peter 2:6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly. (Ungodly? Is that idolatry again? It sure isn't homosexuality)

Jude 1:7-8: Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. (Awww...this one comes SO close, but no cigar; the Greek word translated here as "fornication" is "porneia" and had a distinctly heterosexual con notation; and the "strange flesh" was a reference to angels or "sons of God" that WOMEN had sex with [see Genesis 6:1-4] according
To Jewish tradition; still no mention of homosexuality)


Well, except for a brief mention of Sodom in Revelations (where there is no reference to the city's supposed sins), I'm afraid we've covered them all. Now it's up to the fundamentalists. Surely they should have no difficulty pointing out ALL the verses in the Bible that refer to the sin of Sodom being that of homosexuality.
Here is a question how come all these referance do not make any referance to homosexuality but to know does?

21 here is a good one Jeremiah 23:10-14: For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth...For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD....And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from h is wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. (adultery, lying by priests and prophets; nope, no homosexuality in there)

No but there is neither no destruction of the city either. So may be the extra thing called homosexuality it the tip of the iceberg that brings the wrath of GOD? Hmmm.

You assume this I do not. this is a referance to the history of Sodom and some of what the people did.

Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with miggled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.
23 Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts. As of woollen and linen together. (cotton/polyester blends)
24 Deuteronomy 22:8 When thou buildest a new house then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.
25 Does your roof have a railing around it??
What about Leviticus 27:34 “These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.”

What was the penalty for doing these things was it death as it was with homosexuality. Where they called abomination? I don't think so.

Lev. 11:10 shell fish is an abomination There is another abomination to do with weights and honesty do have time to look it up for you.

26 I am not an Israelite and the Bahamas is not Mount Sinai.

You surly are not and the Bahamas surely is not, but you are a human and as such are still subject to the will of GOD and you would have to meet him for yourself one day.

Hmm prove it with fact not beleif.

27 Adulteress are to be stoned as well. Woe is me shame and scandal in the family. Christ him self broke the laws of the Old Testament. He harvested food on the Sabbath he healed on the Sabbath. He to should have stoned the women who was accused of adultery it was the laws of the Old Testament.

Jesus answer this in the gospel, condemning the sin but allowing the woman to live, but not without the command that she sin no more, for although she was release from the punishment ordered in the old testament if she go and continue in her sins she would surely be sentence to eternal death not by the hands of men but by GOD himself. Therefore, not because the punishment is not practice to day means it takes away the condemnation of sin. Understand there is a difference between law and punishment. Punishment is just the deterrent to back or enforce the law; failure to carry out the punishment is not a breaking of the law.

Thats right go and sin no more because I might not be here next time to stop these holier than thou idiots.

28 He taught something that most Christians cannot grasp. “He with out sin cast the first stone.

See my answer above; If we so called Christians failed to point out sins and keep things like homosexuality to the nation as a sin how would such persons no that what they are doing is a sin, then how can Christ forgive them and asked them to sin no more, as his word surely does today. NO we are not looking to stone sinners no more, because we live under grace not law (but this is another topic for another time).

But it is law under the constitution is not grace. I say by all means point out what you feel is sin but then shut up and leave people alone. What is sin in your faith is not sin in someone else.

29 Your opinion not Christ’s Please state chapter and verse where Christ made referance to homosexuality. So far you have listed Paul’s letters and opinions. I am not a Paulist.

30 As I said before the Bible is a group of writings that were put together and canonized by a Pagan Roman Emperor named Constantine at the Nicene council. There were many writings that were excluded. The writings have to be read with the understanding of their times to understand what the many authors are writing about.

I have answered this in another posting; I note that you are willing to take away the writings of Paul because it is comes across very strongly against the practice of homosexuality. If Paul was silent on this matter you would have no problem with him. Jesus did not mention the word homosexuality, but he condemned adultery. Adultery could only be done by one having sex outside of marriage, since all of his reference to marriage was between a man and a woman, husband and wife, we have no doubt where he stands on the issue of homosexuality that was never given the legitimacy of marriage by him or any other writer in the scriptures.

Sorry Paul is not 1 of Christ chosen disciples he just claims him self to be so.
Acts 9 3-4
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

31 Are we Israelites on mount Sinai??

See my answer to question number 26.

32 Would you want someone else’s religious faith forced on you by law??? Would you want to be forced to live by Islam or Budhsism? No! There for you should not force others to live by your religious faith.

The argument against same sex marriage goes beyond religion it hits at the very core of our existence as the dominant species on the earth. Same sex marriage or unions can not produced life and brings us beneath the animals. There are natural laws and man made laws some given in scriptures and others man have made but all of them understand the sanctity of life. The one you wish to give however can neither bring life nor give to the human race purity or morality.

Uh sorry homosexuality has been a part of humanity since there were humans. Many cultures and religions have and still do honor and accept same sex unions. (And the human race is still growing) There is even same sex union recorded in Christianity see my other thread. With you saying this then the only reason for marriage or unions is procreation. So all men and women that are married and don't or can't have children should not be married.
Homosexuality has been recorded in other animals not just human.

33 Whos teachings are more important. Christ (who broke Moses’s Law) or Moses.

Not relevant; how ever they were both for the time that they were given and to whom they were given. Moses's teaching was to built a lawful nation that was chosen of God to bring forth his son,( you assume this) Christ teachings was to bring forth a people called out among the world to reign with him forever in a new heaven and new earth. If the Israelites were not brought forth as a people who were discipline by the laws given to Moses Christ would not have been born a Jew. ( you assume this)This goes back to the fact that Law came under Moses and Grace came under Christ. Simply put Law under Moses required the Jews to do something like offering gifts of sacrifice to be saved, but grace under Christ man need not do any thing or give any gift of sacrifice because Christ has given it all through his death, all man need do is believe.

You still did not answer the question.

34 Christian Values; Not Hebrew Law not Paulist Law.
35 Fundamental Rights and Freedoms of the Individual. That it right there rights of the individual not Hebrew or Paulist rights.
36 there is no unity if some people are less equal than others.

We are not made equal by our sexual orientation. I am a heterosexual and I see nothing in the constitution that makes me more equal than a homosexual. We are equal because we are humans. The constitution gives both of us the same freedoms. The freedom of an individual is only taken away by the constitution when he breaks a law or when he infringes on the right of someone else.

You can marry whom you want. Even if no church will marry you to the person you choose under civil law you can still have a civil union called a marriage. My friends can't have any legal right under the constitution to be joined to someone they want. How would you like it if you and a woman built a life together and 1 day she got sick? How would you feel if you were told you could not see her? Let say you and she bought a house together you and she lived in this house for years. You die and because she has no legal claim to you, your sister wants the house and throws this woman you have lived with for years out on the street and now she has nothing. No legal agreement is above the constitution. If you leave it to the house to the woman in a will it can be contested in the courts based on the constitution. Mean while she is out on the street. Is this far?? I is this equal??? NO!
Pertaining to this last paragraph. I have found that the majority of the gay community is just wanting the rights of being able to 'will' their homes or have the 'rights' to benefit from their 'lovers' as in insurance purposes and etc. There are many corporations that are now offering medical coverage to the domestic partners and as with the wills there are ways of willing your personal assets to anyone you wish. You can actually if you feel that you want to do so disclaim your siblings,parents, and children and devoutly proclaim that all of them are not in your will. Making your partner the executor of your will and also as two friends buy houses together or form a partnership as to where IF the other dies then the portion that was yours goes to the existing partner. What needs to be fought is with the insurance companies and the laws need to be changed that will allow a person to will their estate to whomever they so choose and if that is your desire then it should not be challenge by any of your relatives no matter if they agreed with your lifestyle or not. I have two friends that are not lesbians but as good friends since a young age decided to buy a home together. One had been previously married and has three children. Before entering this agreement and going forth in doing so for financial reason she let her children know that it was the women's property and whomever survived the other would automatically gained the others portion. If you have it written properly and it is understood in the courts there is no problem and cannot be contested.

Pertaining to this last paragraph. I have found that the majority of the gay community is just wanting the rights of being able to 'will' their homes or have the 'rights' to benefit from their 'lovers' as in insurance purposes and etc. There are many corporations that are now offering medical coverage to the domestic partners and as with the wills there are ways of willing your personal assets to anyone you wish. You can actually if you feel that you want to do so disclaim your siblings,parents, and children and devoutly proclaim that all of them are not in your will. Making your partner the executor of your will and also as two friends buy houses together or form a partnership as to where IF the other dies then the portion that was yours goes to the existing partner. What needs to be fought is with the insurance companies and the laws need to be changed that will allow a person to will their estate to whomever they so choose and if that is your desire then it should not be challenge by any of your relatives no matter if they agreed with your lifestyle or not. I have two friends that are not lesbians but as good friends since a young age decided to buy a home together. One had been previously married and has three children. Before entering this agreement and going forth in doing so for financial reason she let her children know that it was the women's property and whomever survived the other would automatically gained the others portion. If you have it written properly and it is understood in the courts there is no problem and cannot be contested.
Our point made. If same sex couples want a legal union for whatever reason there should be no problem. So why should they have to go to a lawyer and do a will and power of attorney and living will and property agreement and insurance benefits and so on. Which can be done but is very costly in the thousands of $ compared to a marriage license. Which using the same agreement in a marriage license and make it a state provided civil union can do the same for much less the cost.
If your 2 friends lived together it’s not my business or anyone else’s business if they have sex together or not. If they spend years together in the same home is it right that when 1 lay sick and dieing that she can’t see her friend. NO.

‘Same Sex Marriage’, Is it Righteous or Evil?:

Address to: Helen Klonaris and Vicky


For ease of reading here is a response colour code


Black: first response to orginal article

Blue: bb359 makes excellent response to question presented in black

Grey: rebuttal to bb359 Helen Klonaris/ Vicky

RED : jcf101 response to grey and black (Helen Klonaris / Vicky)

Bright red: key points

QUOTE=bb359]Yep Vicky though I was finish with this but had to answer these questions you post for Wendell the following is my take on this issue.

1 Wrong here Wendell Gays and Lesbians don’t (let me repeat it again) don’t care about “Holy Matrimony” they feel if the Christians want to keep it in your churches please do so. Keep it there please and leave them alone. Gays and lesbians are just as happy to keep it out of church because that is your and other Christian’s special interest. So please keep it there. Your interpretations of your faith are just that your interpretations and your faith, Its not mine or the gays and lesbians I know. Christian belief and human rights are different things. Thus gays and lesbians should be allowed to be united under civil law.

You are wrong Vicky, from what I have seen on the news, gays and lesbians are fighting there cities constitution and marriage laws. In fact in some parts in the United States they have gone so far as to question the intent of these laws at the Supreme Court level. There is no question that there first option is marriage only settling for some kind of unions if they can’t get marriage.

No bb359 the gays and lesbians I know don't care if they go to a church or not to get the same legal rights as heterosexual married couples. The news puts on news; news that sells news that will keep the advertising money coming in. Yeah you might have 1 or 2 gay and lesbians looking for a church wedding but most don't care. They just want civil union because they respect the rights of Christians to have their churches their way. The Gay and lesbians say keep you Holy Matrimony yes keep it to your selves and in your churches

Christians don’t want to have church our way (not if we’re obedient to God).
We have church in accordance with the word and will of God. Holy matrimony is for all…one man one woman! The church is also for all, who want to obey God’s will. But just like Jesus did when he met filth and foolishness in the temple (church), we should whip it out i.e. not allow others to conduct evil business in the church!!


2 Have a question no religious leader wants to answer but may be you could please. Why did Christians kill hundreds of thousands of men women and children in the name of Christ? Many killed for simply being left-handed or because they could make medicine from herbs. They would be tortured and then most of the time burned alive.

Not relevant to the question. Understand that not all persons who say they are Christians are Christians. We are told by scriptures that Jesus said that not all who say lord, lord are of his but in the last day those who are real should be revealed. So persons may have killed in the name of Christ or Christianity that does not mean that Christ condone or sanction that kind of behavior and it don’t justifies homosexual marriage in any form. Two wrong don’t make a right.

Is Pope Innocent 8th Christian enough.
http://www.macha.free-online.co.uk/...alificorum.html
The point is Christians make mistakes. Even the Pope makes mistakes. Will you make laws just because these men say so because of their interpretation?nt is Christians make mistakes. Even the Pope makes mistakes will you make laws just because these men say so because of their interpratation.

First let me convey (even thought it was excellently done so by bb359) in terms you can identify with. If a male dresses in drag and starts burning churches I guess we can blame that on the Rainbow alliance?!
Secondly we are not seeking to make laws, the laws have been made! YOU are seeking to change them. By the way on what basis are you proposing the laws be changed…sense not by ones interpretation?!!!!


3 Please note you second word “believe” Believe dose not make it a fact. How many people believed the world was flat and if you sailed out to far you would fall off???

I am Sorry Vicky but according to our faith as Christian belief is why we discuss what Christ did and continue to do, if we don’t believe this then our faith is dead and Christ did not die for our sin. So believing that the world was once flat to find out that it was round does not weaken our faith that Christ is and that the bible is the undisputable word of God.

Fact no matter how much or how many believe something it does not make it fact. Sorry believing can never equal fact.....

Once again I will start with the original question, and answer in terms more carnal.
Why do you buy groceries for more than one day, or have more than a day’s worth of cloths in your closet, or why do you make plans for the future? Could it be that you oh, “ believe ” you’ll live that long!
Next, your own words tell the tale, believing gays and lesbians (Biblical rule breakers) deserve equal rights do not equal fact! Outlaws don’t have the right to change the law. If so we may as well free the murderers out of fox hill prison. Then I can form a band of thieves and demand equal rights and protection of law to rob certain persons of their hard working income, because I don’t have all the luxuries that they do?
Furthermore you may want to argue that we are all Biblical rule breakers, yeah but we don’t try to change man’s law to cover our wrongs, we try to change the wrong we do! We have to abide by the law just like you do, but when we’re wrong we change our ways, so should you!!!

4 The Bible reads Genesis 1: 31 “And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. “
Chapter 2: 1“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished and all the host of them.
The Creator said it was good.

If you had understand what the brother showed you in his writing you would have noted that all was changed after Adam and Eve disobeyed GOD. Yes God did call all Good, but note he still threw both Adam and Eve out of the Garden, indicating that all did not remain good. This showed you that God wanted noting to do with evil even if it meant destroying what he had intended for Good. The Very Good mentioned after the sixth day does not mean that things to come would be very good, rather it meant that God was satisfied with what he had produce. This is similar to an artist or carpenter standing back and admiring his work.

Is the Creator all knowing and all powerful. Does the Creator know past present and future????

If you paint a nice picture and someone comes along before it dries and smear it up and tears it up. Because you may be a forgiving person you don’t kill them, but you make it known that you are deeply unhappy with what they did so they will turn away from doing wrong in the future. You remove them from your presence and try to replace and repair the damage done.
Yes God is all Knowing and knows the past present and future and he knows some of the wimpy excuses people will try to come up with at the great judgment. So if you want to choose death you’ll have to do that for yourself! He will not cut you short, for it is God’s will that none should perish. He wants you to see he gives you freedom of choice and he wants you to also see all the opportunities and many ways he tries to save you, including using great men like Wendell and bb359, and even giving his only son. Yet still you cry for freedom to do your own thing, freedom to make your own laws, and so he gives the freedom. If its death you choose its death you’ll get.
Why don’t God reach in and do something then? He has by personally coming down among us as one of us. The death that we eagerly choose he said No! I’ll die that death you chose, now you can go free. This journey we call life is a battle and if you choose to sign the contract of your life over to the evil one, by refusing Jesus there is nothing God can do, because he must keep all of his words.

5. male and female he created them. Why does it not read 1 male and 1 female he created them??

Not relevant; does not support neither denies the posting. The fact that can not be question is that when he made women he gave her to the man not another woman or a man to another man.

This is what it says in the creation story. Please note "story" see question 6.

I’m amazed that you argued this point, it stands to reason that you have a weak case.
People this is elementary English. Males signify plural i.e. more than one; male indicates singular i.e. a complete human unit. Therefore there is no need to place a 1 in front of what’s indicative and has been defined as one. Additionally within that human unit were housed incomplete portions of the rest of mankind. He was a prototype carrying half of all other humans, including me and you, so it would have been incorrect to call him 1 one man.


6 Genesis 4:16-17 “And Cain went out form the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden and Cain knew his wife and she conceived and bare Enoch and he builded a city and called the name of the city after his son Enoch”

Once again no relevance to the posting; if any thing it only supports the argument that marriage was ordain for a man and woman because if they had subscribe to the desires of some today they would not have been able to conceived children in those days.

Sorry the point is there were other humans besides Adam and Eve?
How can the only man and woman have 2 sons 1 is killed the other runs away and finds a wife. Duh where did she come from? That is the relevance. The creation story is just that. What about the dinosaurs they roamed the earth millions of years before man?


Again, lack of pertinent evidence; line of questioning irrelevant to subject matter…signs of a week case!
Yes of cause there were other humans, but how does that prove man should marry man and woman marry woman?!! However I will indulge your question Don’t forget Adam and Eve each had a once immortal body! Then they disobeyed God and put a curse on themselves. Remember what the serpent told them, they will not die quickly. Come on now, I know Bahamians who have children that are the same age for a month or two. As soon as one popped out another popped in a month later. I also know men who were making babies in their seventies. What’s the relevance?
Well if they can do this after thousands of years of pollution and drugs and sickness and diseases, and forcing chemical garbage in our bodies, Imagine what the near perfect, original, new body could produce. Then imagine how many after hundreds of years. Yes Adam lived for hundreds of years. Remember God spoke fruitfulness and multiplication on Adam and this was his sole purpose at the time, so they were procreating like mad. I could see the family getting bigger 20, 40, etc, etc then their getting on each others nerves so they all move to distance places. The KJV Bible to my knowledge doesn’t give the age of Cain or Able when Able died, nor how many years after Cain left did he meet his wife. The Bible does say that he wondered to far parts of the earth. Obviously he would have gotten lonely as Adam did at first, and made his way back. By now years would have past and there would be villages with people who didn’t know him nor he them. This is where he could have found a wife.


7 What did Enoch find for a wife?

Not relevant see the answer for 6. Enoch found a wife not a husband.

see above

No need to waste time on this...it’s clear

8 What inhabited the city?
Monkey's????

Not relevant once again, but you should make note that men had no time limit on life in those days, so we are talking about men who may have lived for hundreds of years, can you imagine the amount of children they could have gotten, I think enough to create an entire city. Thanks to normal sexual practices that can bring forth life.

Again this is only something you beleive I say give us fact. Oh and the Bible is not fact it is faith so it does not count.

Firstly the generational off spring, secondly if it is not fact …um why do you quote references from it and use it as evidence to support your case? (This is a rhetorical question, I know the answer) THE BIBLE IS FACTS!!!!!! Historians use it to track ancient civilizations. By the way tell me, what do you call it when you step on a plane knowing nothing about the pilots, you’re not able to watch or talk to them and you completely put your life in their hands? What do you call this?

9 Or were there other humans?

See the answer to 8.

Asked and answered! However :

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:
5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
5:6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos:
5:7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
5:9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan:
5:10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
5:12 And Cainan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalaleel:
5:13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:

I want to point out a few things; One: Notice they had sons and daughters too many to mention. Two: Also notice how long it was before they had children between 70 and 100+ yrs. Three: Their ages when they died was around 1000 years, meaning each could have had about 700 children, each of those 700 could have had 700 more etc. etc. Four: This goes on and on all the way to Noah, until God commanded that man will only live for 120 years Genesis 5:38. Now after all these years that the Bible was written, even with the brilliant scientist and marvelous technology we have today, Have you heard of anyone living more than 120 years? The Bible is FACTS!

10 Where did they come from??
Matthew 19:12 “For there are some eunuchs which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there are eunuchs which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it let him receive it.”

I think you are asking two questions here the first one was already answered; they were born from a heterosexual relationship.
The Second question God created all mankind those who are born with cancer, deformities, and diseases, however you would note that in the beginning it was not his intent for man to live in this state, but as for those who are born in this state it goes back to the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Christ who the bible refers to as the second Adam gave us a new opportunity to correct these condition in a place that we can live eternally and never have to worry about sickness or diseases. Not because some one is born in a condition means that GOD love them any less. When Jesus was confronted with this question by the disciples when a man was brought for healing, Jesus told them that neither this man or his parents’ sins had made him so but rather he was created so for the Glory of GOD. This simply mean that he was created thus so that he may be healed in the presence of others and GOD can get glory from his healing. Can you imagine what a testimony of Christ that man would have given after being healed?

Well put bb395

11 Who created the born eunuch if only male and female were created??

Eunuchs in the bible reference refer to Men who were unable to have children. This is a result as it is today because of birth defects due to disease, medication, or surgical procedure. Then there are those who chose like the Catholic priest to become Eunuchs because of there conviction or Religion. Finally there are those who were made eunuchs because they were castrated by others.

Sorry not so eunuch refers to a person known as a hermaphrodite from the Greek goddess hermorphrodita. A person with ambiguous sex. This person can have what looks like a penis and a virgina at the same time and many venations. There are humans that are born with male and or female sex but the gender identity in the brain is the opposite. The same effect that does not veralize the sex affects the brain. It can also affect the brain only. Result gender dysphoria. (What I am) Ask your Dr. about it.

First let me say that bb359 is right with the biblical reference of eunuch. The Oxford Modern English Dictionary defines eunuch as “a castrated man”. The American Heritage Dictionary gives the same and goes further to say “a man or boy whose testes are nonfunctional or have been removed”. What you’re saying about hermaphrodites is also a reference to eunuch.

Secondly, If I take a knife and chop off my foot can you blame God for that? If I decide to not listen to my doctor and saturate my diet with salt, caffeine, and sugar can you blame God for that? If a woman decides to drink alcohol and smoke and take drugs while pregnant, against doctor’s orders can you blame God for this? God told Adam not to put a certain fruit in his mouth or it would cause his immortal body to become mortal, and decay, brake down, fall apart, become abnormal, and die. Adam chose not to listen, not to heed, to disobey. By his choice, he chose these things to happen to him. If I chose to stick my hand in fire should I blame God that I got burned? Moreover should I blame others that my hand is injured because of my own actions? Should I demand that they take care of me because I can not receive compensation, due to my own actions and decisions, which were in opposition to sensible practice?!!!! This is folly!! This is equivalent to me intentionally, knowingly, and purposefully saying in my mind: hey there’s a one way street, everyone’s driving this way but I will drive the other way. I will be different, even though the law doesn’t provide for me to be different I don’t care, I’ll make them change it. Forget what everyone else wants it’s about what I want!!! Then I get in a wreck and blame the traffic laws for my damage and demand the laws be changed.

If this were an actual court case and we were the Lawyers, I would be able to rest on your last testimony!
I will try to be as tactful as I can (i.e. I don’t intend to make personal insults).
By your own admission you have a brain defect a disorder. This is an abnormality i.e. not normal i.e. unnatural. Please, please understand I am not Name calling, nor knocking your mental condition. I am merely stating the facts. Why does the law not allow for a nine year olds to get a drivers license, or a 12 year old to purchase alcoholic beverages? Because they lack the mental capacity to make good / appropriate judgment. I hasten to ask are you proposing that the constitution of this nation be changed at the thoughts and mindset of an abnormal mental processing?!! That sound minds and sound principals be destroyed for that of partial insanity? Listen, no offence intended but If I were talking to a friend I would suggest appropriate medical and other special treatment and evaluations, to correct and replace what’s missing as best as can be done. To replace and change such abnormal minds as apposed to changing laws for normal minded society. I seek not to offend nor to condemn, however as Christians we are instructed to proclaim the word of God upon Wrong doings. I bring your attention to St. John CH.2 v15 Jesus personally made a whip, a weapon to inflict pain and punishment. He beat the evil doers out the Temple. Likewise We Christians should have the same passion to declare war on evil and not allow evil to take over our domain. People like to draw reference to the woman caught committing adultery, and the words Jesus said. What they overlook is that she was ready to accept her punishment from both the legal system in place, and from Jesus. She was not making excuses and demanding that what she was doing was right, nor that the law be changed. She positioned herself to receive her punishment. Open acceptance of punishment is an admittance of guilt. Once you confess your wrongs and are truly willing to turn away from wrong, then comes forgiveness and mercy, but only after confession, not excuses!!


I am not attempting to justify divorce but you should read Matthew 5:32, Jesus said here that who so ever put away his wife, except for fornication, causeth her to commit adultery if she marries again. So Jesus made room for divorce and remarriage but only under the circumstances of unfaithfulness in marriage. I am glad that you saw here that Jesus in this context was talking about marriage between a man and a woman, for this reason he says a man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife and they shall be come one flesh. Understand that God made man and woman so unique they are able to become one flesh and out of that one flesh comes other flesh, woman and woman can’t do this neither can man and man.

As I said keep your word marriage gays and lesbians are looking for the same legal rights as marraige. I don't think it far that 2 people (don't care what sex they are) live together for years and they are denied access to their partner when the other is sick. Wrong wrong wrong period wrong!

Let me reiterate something I just said. God told Adam not to touch the fruit from a certain tree. Adam chose not to listen, not to heed, to disobey. By his choice, he chose these things to happen to him. If I chose to stick my hand in fire should I blame God that I got burned? Moreover should I blame others that my hand is injured because of my own actions? Should I demand that they take care of me because I can not receive compensation, due to my own actions and decisions, which were in opposition to sensible practice?!!!! This is folly!! This is equivalent to me intentionally, knowingly, and purposefully saying in my mind: hey there’s a one way street, everyone’s driving this way but I will drive the other way. I will be different, even though the law doesn’t provide for me to be different I don’t care, I’ll make them change it. Forget what everyone else wants it’s about what I want!!! Then I get in a wreck and blame the traffic laws for my damage and demand the laws be changed. This is Nonsense!!! Folly, folly, folly just plain folly! This is unfair !

Speaking of unfairness you’d have to get in line, cause there are a lot of unfairness going around. What do you think about this?
I don’t think it’s fair that the police can’t find one officer to come to our rescue when our homes are being robbed, nor can they find the man power to investigate and track down the perpetrator when a young teen girl is raped. Yet they can find dozens of men to put on the streets targeting and harassing hardworking Bahamians on their way home from work for a stupid blown tail light. Then that same hardworking Bahamian has to pay for known criminals to be kept in our already crowded prisons, when these criminals should be extradited to pay the penalty for their crimes!! They wanna take my couple dollars for a blown light, but these monster criminals are sheltered and protected?! NO WAY!!! EXRADITE THEM ALL, FEMALES TOO!!! DON’T DO THE CRIME IF YOU CAN’T DO THE TIME!!!!!
Speak out against all evil!!!

13 Since when does “that we may know them” equal homosexual love?

When God would destroy an entire nation for it; It is no question that to know was met sexual desires but in the event you are referring to it met to have sex with the angels, because not only was the men strike blind the entire city that practice this act was destroyed.

this to know comes from the Hebrew word Yadha. So 943 time in the Bible yadha means to get aquantied and this 1 time it means homosexual love. Sorry just can't happen that just streching it to far. I say it means what it says to know.

For the sake of time I give you these definitions directly extracted from the American Heritage Dictionary (A H D) its self explanitory:

syn•o•nym (s¹n“…-n¹m”) n. Abbr. syn. 1. A word having the same or nearly thesame meaning as another word or other words in a language.2. A word or an expression that serves as a figurative or symbolic substitute for another.

know (n½) v. knew (n›, ny›), known (n½n), know•ing, knows. --tr. 1. To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty. 2. To regard as true beyond doubt. 3. To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in. 4. To have fixed in the mind. 5. To have experience of. 6.a. To perceive as familiar; recognize. b. To be acquainted with. 7. To be able to distinguish; recognize as distinct. 8. To discern the character or nature of. 9. Archaic. To have sexual intercourse with. --intr. 1. To possess knowledge, understanding, or information. 2. To be cognizant or aware. --idioms. in the know. Informal. Possessing special or secret information. you know. Informal. Used parenthetically in conversation, as to fill pauses or educe the listener's agreement or sympathy. --know“a•ble adj. --know“er n.


14 The angels did not want to have sex with the men. Thus not consenting adults.

God condemns this act whether it is done with consenting adults or not. (That is your beleif not fact) I can never justify adultery because I did it with a consenting female, it is still wrong in the eyes of God. If God wanted homosexuality to be practice by consulting adults he would have made provisions in the scriptures for man to marry man and likewise woman to marry woman, since there is no such direction given there is no need to assume that it is lawful by the word of GOD.

If you belive the Bible is the only communacation the Creator gave to human kind. I do not. Again I say the Bible is faith not fact.

ASV Luke:16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they that justify yourselves in the sight of men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
KJV 1st John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
1:2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

If you claim it’s not fact then why do you use it as reference source in previous points? If you claim The Bible is not fact then by what means do you justify any other communication? Or any piece of written literature. What makes any other book believable? These men by separate writings came up with the same accounts, evidences, facts (because they actual witness the miracles), and Spiritual conclusion. They lived by the governing principals of God. If they are hard to believe, then why should one choose to believe some self-proclaiming, self-centered, its all about the money writer, who lives as he pleases with no moral authority to govern him? As we find in modern science theories and formulas are constantly rewritten, take the one you mentioned earlier; Christopher Columbus, it was written and documented that the world was flat, until he rewrote that theory. The Bible is the only source of laws and principals that have not been erased, and forgotten and rewritten.


15 Lets say the men of Sodom wanted to rape the angels. Rape is not consentual sex it is an act of violence. Ask anyone who has been raped and see if it was cousentual sex.

Neither is sex outside of marriage. I think the writer of the Sodom story wanted us to see the kind of sin and nature of the men of that city having desires to go with other men, not the fact that they would rape or have unconsensual sex. See the answer above.

Violence is violence the people of Sodom were a mean and cruel people. They respected no one. Rape is not sexual desire its power violent power over another.

First of all I agree that rape is partially violent power over another, so therefore I partially disagree that rape is not sexual desire. There are different degrees of rape. You can rape some one’s thoughts (example, if a man’s wife is raped his mind is raped) or rape of items and possessions, these are rape that are not sexual desire but are of violent power over another against their wishes! However all other rape of a person’s body, contrary to what you said, is primarily sexual desire. Other serious crimes are also power related i.e. murder, kidnapping, robbery. Rape is the only one that has sexual desire. For the sake of time, again I give another direct extraction from the previous source (A H D)

rape 1 (r³p) n. 1. The crime of forcing another person to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse. 2. The act of seizing and carrying off by force; abduction. 3. Abusive or improper treatment; violation. --rape tr.v. raped, rap•ing, rapes. 1. To force (another person) to submit to sex acts, especially sexual intercourse; commit rape on. 2. To seize and carry off by force. 3. To plunder or pillage. --rap“er n.
But remember the issue is that homosexuality and lesbianism is wrong, and should not be forced on a nation.

16 So please explain how Genesis 19:5 “that we may know them” equals homosexual love??

Genesis 19:8,”Behold now I two daughters which have not known man; let me I pray you bring them out unto you and you do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.”



The answer to this question is so important that I had to immediately place it here.

First here is what the bible says:

KJV Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

We speak English, are words thoughts and expressions are defined by the English language definitions of these words. The follow comes from the American Heritage Dictionary. The Oxford Modern English Dictionary has the same identical definition. Here now is the English language definition of the word KNOW:

know (n½) v. knew (n›, ny›), known (n½n), know•ing, knows. --tr. 1. To perceive directly; grasp in the mind with clarity or certainty. 2. To regard as true beyond doubt. 3. To have a practical understanding of, as through experience; be skilled in. 4. To have fixed in the mind. 5. To have experience of. 6.a. To perceive as familiar; recognize. b. To be acquainted with. 7. To be able to distinguish; recognize as distinct. 8. To discern the character or nature of. 9. Archaic. To have sexual intercourse with. --intr. 1. To possess knowledge, understanding, or information. 2. To be cognizant or aware. --idioms. in the know. Informal. Possessing special or secret information. you know. Informal. Used parenthetically in conversation, as to fill pauses or educe the listener's agreement or sympathy. --know“a•ble adj. --know“er n.

The act that these men wanted to perform was so vile and disgusting until Lott was willing to offer his daughters instead.

Sorry Lot knew the people of Sodom were a violent mean and cruel people. Lot knew that if he put theses men his guests that snuck into the city. The men of Sodom would do harm to them. Now here you must understand Middle Eastern custom. Once a person enters you home as a guest you must protect them even if it means your death to do so. Example If President Bush went into Ben Laden house as a guest he would not be harmed. All Bush would have to do is walk in and say I am your guest and he is safe. How ever Bush would have to follow all the rules of the house. Bin Laden would not want a curse of death on his house. I know this for a fact my Grandfather Parents were born and lived in Lebanon in the town of Rash ayah until they migrated to Canada. I still practice this custom to this day.


Hey people lets be real please, from elementary school all the way through College students are thought comprehension and how to interpret literature. With that in mind what bb359 said is on target. If I might add for the original question, the following is a text you used to support your case.
(6 Genesis 4:16-17 “And Cain went out form the presence of the Lord, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden and Cain knew his wife and she conceived and bare Enoch and he builded a city and called the name of the city after his son Enoch”)

And Cain knew his wife and she conceived. I think a 10 year old could figure this out, but for clarity, I’ll repost something given earlier:

syn•o•nym (s¹n“…-n¹m”) n. Abbr. syn. 1. A word having the same or nearly thesame meaning as another word or other words in a language. 2. A word or an expression that serves as a figurative or symbolic substitute for another.


17 Is this how God wants us to protect ourselves from the homosexuals by offering to let them rape our virgin daughters?

The answer to this follows in the proceeding scriptures with God’s response that leaves the men blind.

Not revalent make no referance to homosexuality.

With all due respects your intelligence amazes me. (Unless by this time you were tired and accidentally typed in error) please read the question and the answer carefully. Once again another brilliant response by bb359. The question is why did Lot jeopardize his own precious virgin daughters? The short answer, How does god save the world? John 3:16

One must understand the true love of God to understand this and how God transfers that love via the Holy Spirit to us. Just as there are stages we go through as we grow in our lift time as humans, the Christian life likewise has stages. Lot was a Spiritual adult and possessed the true love of God. See, just as God sent his only son to die for a world of people who would find excuses to reject him, he still loves us enough to have given the life of his son, a God, for mere humans. This is what Lot was doing. See Lot knew that the Angels came to judge the hearts of the people that’s why he kept them out of the city (by the way the Angels did not sneak as you put it into the city) here is

Genesis KJV 19:1 And the two angels came to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face to the earth;
19:2 and he said, Behold now, my lords, turn aside, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your way. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.

19:3 And he urged them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.

Lot was aware that judgment was at hand. The Angels wanted to go in the streets to judge the people. This is yet another example of God’s tremendous love for us he knew that he would have to destroy Sodom and Gomorra, but even to the point of judgment he was giving mercy. Also that he does not make decisions without council or witness. (Let us make man…Gen.1:26) Lot was aware of this and tried to keep the Angels from seeing how wicked and evil the people were. He was not in fear of what would happen to the Angels, but what would happen to the people. His fear wasn’t that those Angels might take out a couple of those wicked men, but that God was preparing to blow this wicked nation completely off his good green earth.





18 The story is found in Judges 19:14-28. (to long to wirte word for word) It bears a striking resemblance to the Sodom story -- a traveler arrives at the city (in this case, Gilbeah).

By using to Know again from this scripture just proves that it means to have sex. Why else would this man offer his concubine? No further explanation needed.

Sorry it does not prove they wanted consensual sex. Because if so Lot and this other old man would not fear the people out side. All that had to be said is no and the crowed would have walked away. If a group of men gang rape a woman is it consensual after she says no?? If a group of men gang rape a man is it consensual after he says no??

Once again your intelligence surprises me. This was said before by bb359. It does not matter if it’s consensual or not, sex between a man and a man or a woman and a woman is wrong! Come on now use some intelligence. If they had to give the concubine, whom the husband later grieved for, it’s obvious saying no was not enough! It’s clear you didn’t even read the text because they did say no! how can you argue something you didn’t even research?!!

ASV Judges 19:22 As they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain base fellows, beset the house round about, beating at the door; and they spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thy house, that we may know him.

19:23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into my house, do not this folly.

19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a virgin, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not any such folly.

19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man laid hold on his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning:

She died later that morning from their abuse. I don’t think it’s by chance that this is recorded in a book called JUDGES. This account stands as facts as to what was likewise happening in Sodom and what would have happened to those Angels had they been mortal men. In the report of what happened at Sodom, Lot did not fear the people if so why would he live there? Lot felt that if he could get the men to accept his daughters, it would show improvement, that he could get these homosexual men to change their ways. Then he would be able to ask God to spare Sodom and Gomorra, and that the people would change given the chance.



19 If Lot and this old man knew they mobs where male homosexual what would be the point of offering females to them?

Lot and the man you mention in the other story knew that these men wanted sex from there desire “to know”, so they attempted to offer them something that is more natural.

But the men still raped the concubine and killed her. Was that consent??
I will just remind you 943 time not meaning sex in the Bible and once it does???

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain
This is the first time the word knew is used in the Bible.

Genesis 38:26 And Judah acknowledged [them], and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

Judges 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning
Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

This looks like more than once to me. To ask you to use some intelligence may be asking too much of you, so I’ll say use a little intelligence.

Your rebuttal questions are becoming slightly different from the origanal, so I’ll address them when it is so as A} and B}. You’re also more repetitive of previous ones asked and answered. When this is so I’ll simply say asked and answered to save time and space.
19 A} asked and answered see last 4 lines of my previous answer to question 18.
19 B} To the 943 times: first of all, let me put it like this; I think you’re aware of what fair and balance is. So let me balance the scales of fairness here. How about this, YOU SHOW WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY HOMOSEXUALITY IS OK. Show me where God says men can sleep with men. You want to be accepted, you want to change the law so the burden of proof is upon you!
As for the men who raped the concubine: There are many reports of wrong-doings in The Bible. This is why God punishes evil-doers, because people like you will question God’s faithfulness and ask, why are these wicked people allowed to do evil. If you read the entire report The Bible gives, you will see that those men were killed and the city burnt. (Judges 20:34) Bear in mind the subject point is not a question of consent, but rather Homosexuality is wrong, lesbianism is wrong! And it should not be forced on a notion that does not want it!

20 Here are all the reference to Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible please point out the reference to homosexuality.

No time to go through them all do that for you in a later writing. But it is amazing don’t you think that there are so much reference to this one event, could it be that the message here is to warn other nations against the path that Sodom took?

Here let me help you.
Genesis 13:13: But the men of Sodom [were] wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly. (Nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

This question was asked and answered about twice before, but I’ll answer it again because this dispels the foundation of your argument!
First here is what the bible says: KJV

Genesis 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.

Next, here’s the answer from a neutral and undisputable source. We speak English and our words, thoughts, and expressions are formally defined by the English language dictionary’s definition of these words. The following comes from the American Heritage Dictionary. The Oxford Modern English Dictionary has the same identical definition. Here now is the English language definition of the word KNOW as stated in Genesis 19:5
9. Archaic. To have sexual intercourse with.

The following is a very long list of scriptures presented to argue that the word homosexuality is not written in the Bible. There are many words that we use today that are not written in the Bible. To the best of my knowledge the words vehicle, career, and epidemic as well as homosexuality are not in the King James Version of the Bible, however there are other words clearly used that means the same: chariot, occupation, and plague as well as know!

Genesis 18:20: And the LORD said, because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous. (Nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Genesis 19:13: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD. (Nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Deuteronomy 29:17-26: And ye have seen their abominations, and their idols, wood and stone, silver and gold, which [were] among them:...[And that] the whole land thereof [is] brimstone, and salt, [and] burning...like the overthrow of Sodom...which the LORD overthrew in his anger, and in his wrath...Wherefore hath the LORD done thus unto this land? What [meant] the heat of this great anger? Then men shall say, because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers...For
They went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and [whom] he had not given unto them:
(Just idolatry and false gods; nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Deuteronomy 32:32-38: For their vine [is] of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes [are] grapes of gall, their clusters [are] bitter...And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted, Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, [and] drank the wine of their drink offerings? Let them rise up and help you, [and] be your protection.
(Idolatry again; nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Isaiah 1:9-23: Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, [and] we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.... How is the faithful city become a harlot! It was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: Thy princes [are] rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them. (hmmm...murder, greed, thievery, rebelliousness, covetness; nope, no homosexuality there)

Isaiah 3:8-15: For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings [are] against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory. The show of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide [it] not. Woe unto their soul! For they have rewarded evil unto themselves. For ye have eaten up the vineyard; the spoil
Of the poor [is] in your houses. What mean ye [that] ye beat my people to pieces, and grind the faces of the poor?
(Mistreating the poor; nope, no homosexuality mentioned there)

Isaiah 13: 11-19: And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.... And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' Excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. (Haughtiness, yes, but no homosexuality.)

Jeremiah 23:10-14: For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth...For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.... And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem a horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from h is wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. (Adultery, lying by priests and prophets; nope, no homosexuality in there)

Jeremiah 49:16-18: Thy terribleness hath deceived thee, [and] the pride of thine heart...Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof. As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah. (Evil and pride, but still no homosexuality)

Jeremiah 50:2-40: Declare ye among the nations...say, Babylon is taken, Bal is confounded, Merodach is broken in pieces; her idols are confounded, her images are broken in pieces.... thou hast striven against the LORD...for she hath been proud against the LORD...As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbor [cities] thereof, saith the LORD; [so] shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein. (There’s that idolatry and pride again, but still no homosexuality)

Lamentations 4:3-6: ...the daughter of my people [is become] cruel, like the ostriches in the wilderness. The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, [and] no man breaketh [it] unto them. They that did feed delicately are desolate in the streets: they that were brought up in scarlet embrace dunghills. For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was over thrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her. (Cruelty, failure to tend the young and the poor, but still no homosexuality)

Ezekiel 16:49-50: Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw [good]. (Well that’s pretty clear, huh? But what are we missing in that list? Oh yeah...homosexuality)

Amos 4:1-11: Hear this word, ye kin of Bashan, that [are] in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink. I have overthrown [some] of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. (Oppression, mistreating the needy...still no homosexuality)

Zephaniah 2:8: I have heard the reproach of Moab, and the revilings of the children of Ammon, whereby they have reproached my people, and magnified [themselves] against their border. Therefore [as] I live, saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Surely Moab shall be as Sodom, and the children of Ammon as Gomorrah...This shall they have for their pride, because they have reproached and magnified [themselves] against the people of the LORD of hosts. (There’s that pride again, and the intimation of inhospitality, but still no homosexuality)

Well, so much for the Old Testament's linkage of Sodom with homosexuality. Maybe the fundamentalists were referring to something in the New Testament? Let's see...

Matthew 20:11: And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into a house, salute it.... And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.... Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment, than for that city. (Jesus said these words; they draw a comparison to inhospitality, but there's still no homosexuality there)

Matthew 11:19-24: The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.... Then began [Jesus] to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! Woe unto thee, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.... And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been
Done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.... But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the Day of Judgment, than for thee. (They ridiculed Jesus and treated him with utmost inhospitality, refusing to repent...but still no mention of homosexuality)

Mark 6:10-11: And he said unto them, In what place so ever ye enter into an house, there abide till ye depart from that place. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah in the Day of Judgment, than for that city. (Another repetition of the instruction against inhospitality, but still no mention of homosexuality)

Luke 10:10-12: But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say. Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. (There's that inhospitality reference again, but still no homosexuality mentioned)

Luke 17:26-29: And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed [them] al l. (still no mention of homosexuality)

2 Peter 2:6: And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly. (Ungodly? Is that idolatry again? It sure isn't homosexuality)

Jude 1:7-8: Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. (Awww...this one comes SO close, but no cigar; the Greek word translated here as "fornication" is "porneia" and had a distinctly heterosexual con notation; and the "strange flesh" was a reference to angels or "sons of God" that WOMEN had sex with [see Genesis 6:1-4] according
To Jewish tradition; still no mention of homosexuality)

Well, except for a brief mention of Sodom in Revelations (where there is no reference to the city's supposed sins), I'm afraid we've covered them all. Now it's up to the fundamentalists. Surely they should have no difficulty pointing out ALL the verses in the Bible that refer to the sin of Sodom being that of homosexuality.

Here is a question how come all these referance do not make any referance to homosexuality but to know does?

See response to question 13, this clearly shows that know/knew means have sex with in this context. See English language dictionary for more reference. Let me repeat, YOU SHOW ME WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY HOMOSEXUALITY IS OK. Show me where God says men can marry men. YOU want to be accepted, YOU want to change the law so the burden of proof is upon YOU!

21 here is a good one Jeremiah 23:10-14: For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth...For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD....And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err. I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from h is wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. (adultery, lying by priests and prophets; nope, no homosexuality in there)

No but there is neither no destruction of the city either. So may be the extra thing called homosexuality it the tip of the iceberg that brings the wrath of GOD? Hmmm.

You assume this I do not. this is a referance to the history of Sodom and some of what the people did.

I find it interesting that you are here admitting that the bible is historical fact!
History is an event that actually happened, something that actually happened is FACT!

ASV Genesis 19:5 and they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men that came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.



Leviticus 19:19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with miggled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woolen come upon thee.
23 Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts. As of woollen and linen together. (cotton/polyester blends)
24 Deuteronomy 22:8 When thou buildest a new house then thou shalt make a battlement for thy roof that thou bring not blood upon thine house, if any man fall from thence.
25 Does your roof have a railing around it??
What about Leviticus 27:34 “These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.”

What was the penalty for doing these things was it death as it was with homosexuality. Where they called abomination? I don't think so.

Lev. 11:10 shell fish is an abomination There is another abomination to do with weights and honesty do have time to look it up for you.


Not relevant to the point that a man marrying a man or a woman marrying a woman is wrong!!!!!!
Again let me repeat, you may want to argue that we are all Biblical rule breakers, yeah but we don’t try to change man’s law to cover our wrongs, we try to change the wrong we do! We have to abide by the law just like you do, but when we’re wrong we change our ways, so should you!!!


26 I am not an Israelite and the Bahamas is not Mount Sinai.

You surly are not and the Bahamas surely is not, but you are a human and as such are still subject to the will of GOD and you would have to meet him for yourself one day.

Hmm prove it with fact not beleif.


ASV Bible Psalms 94:1 O Jehovah, thou God to whom vengeance belongeth, Thou God to whom vengeance belongeth, shine forth.
94:2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: Render to the proud [their] desert.
94:3 Jehovah, how long shall the wicked, How long shall the wicked triumph?
94:4 They prate, they speak arrogantly: All the workers of iniquity boast themselves.
94:7 And, they say, Jehovah will not see, Neither will the God of Jacob consider.
94:8 Consider, ye brutish among the people; And ye fools, when will ye be wise?
94:23 And he hath brought upon them their own iniquity, And will cut them off in their own wickedness; Jehovah our God will cut them off.
ASV Bible Ravelation: 19:2 for true and righteous are his judgments; for he hath judged the great harlot, her that corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.








27 Adulteress are to be stoned as well. Woe is me shame and scandal in the family. Christ him self broke the laws of the Old Testament. He harvested food on the Sabbath he healed on the Sabbath. He to should have stoned the women who was accused of adultery it was the laws of the Old Testament.

Jesus answer this in the gospel, condemning the sin but allowing the woman to live, but not without the command that she sin no more, for although she was release from the punishment ordered in the old testament if she go and continue in her sins she would surely be sentence to eternal death not by the hands of men but by GOD himself. Therefore, not because the punishment is not practice to day means it takes away the condemnation of sin. Understand there is a difference between law and punishment. Punishment is just the deterrent to back or enforce the law; failure to carry out the punishment is not a breaking of the law.

Thats right go and sin no more because I might not be here next time to stop these holier than thou idiots.

I think the evidence presented is sufficient enough to show who the idiots are. By the way I suggest you get grammatical help and check your spelling before you make further postings.
Let me repeat once again, People like to draw reference to the woman caught committing adultery, and the words Jesus said. What they overlook is that she was ready to accept her punishment from both the legal system in place, and from Jesus. She was not making excuses and demanding what she was doing was right, or that the law be changed. She positioned herself to receive her punishment. Open acceptance of punishment is an admittance of guilt. Once you confess your wrongs and are truly willing to turn away from wrong, then comes forgiveness and mercy, but only after confession not excuses!!


28 He taught something that most Christians cannot grasp. “He with out sin cast the first stone.

See my answer above; If we so called Christians failed to point out sins and keep things like homosexuality to the nation as a sin how would such persons no that what they are doing is a sin, then how can Christ forgive them and asked them to sin no more, as his word surely does today. NO we are not looking to stone sinners no more, because we live under grace not law (but this is another topic for another time).

But it is law under the constitution is not grace. I say by all means point out what you feel is sin but then shut up and leave people alone. What is sin in your faith is not sin in someone else.

He taught that we should follow all his principles including this one; St John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
This means don’t let evil try to control your domain uproot it and cast it out from among you!

29 Your opinion not Christ’s Please state chapter and verse where Christ made referance to homosexuality. So far you have listed Paul’s letters and opinions. I am not a Paulist.

The body of Christ is one body if you accept one you must accept all if you reject one you reject all. The Bible is The Holy Word of God. In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was GOD! (St. John 1:1)

30 As I said before the Bible is a group of writings that were put together and canonized by a Pagan Roman Emperor named Constantine at the Nicene council. There were many writings that were excluded. The writings have to be read with the understanding of their times to understand what the many authors are writing about.

I have answered this in another posting; I note that you are willing to take away the writings of Paul because it is comes across very strongly against the practice of homosexuality. If Paul was silent on this matter you would have no problem with him. Jesus did not mention the word homosexuality, but he condemned adultery. Adultery could only be done by one having sex outside of marriage, since all of his reference to marriage was between a man and a woman, husband and wife, we have no doubt where he stands on the issue of homosexuality that was never given the legitimacy of marriage by him or any other writer in the scriptures.

Sorry Paul is not 1 of Christ chosen disciples he just claims him self to be so.
Acts 9 3-4
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?


Yet again I’m amazed at your intelligence. The very scripture you quote speaks against your words. You really should read more carefully before you speak.
ASV ASKS 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesuswhom thou persecutest: hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

For the sake of time and space I’ll jump to the main verse in which Jesus is talking to the disciple Ananias about soul (who’s name will be changed to Paul) and what soul will do. If you wish you may read what I skipped on your own.

9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
ASV John 8:31 Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, [then] are ye truly my disciples;



31 Are we Israelites on mount Sinai??

See my answer to question number 26.

No comments needed here. (Does not prove its right for a man to marry a man, or a woman to marry woman)

32 Would you want someone else’s religious faith forced on you by law??? Would you want to be forced to live by Islam or Budhsism? No! There for you should not force others to live by your religious faith.

The argument against same sex marriage goes beyond religion it hits at the very core of our existence as the dominant species on the earth. Same sex marriage or unions can not produced life and brings us beneath the animals. There are natural laws and man made laws some given in scriptures and others man have made but all of them understand the sanctity of life. The one you wish to give however can neither bring life nor give to the human race purity or morality.

Uh sorry homosexuality has been a part of humanity since there were humans. [ Wrong Adam was a man and Eve was a woman.] Many cultures and religions have and still do honor and accept same sex unions. (And the human race is still growing) . [Thanks to men who marry women, and women who marry men] There is even same sex union recorded in Christianity. [Not real Christians, an infiltrator is not a real Christian ] see my other thread. With you saying this then the only reason for marriage or unions is procreation. So all men and women that are married and don't or can't have children should not be married. [There are many reasons for a man to marry a woman and a woman to marry a man; procreation just happens to be one, obeying God is another. By the way obeying God is not the act of a dictatorship, we have a choice, but it is listening to principles that are best for us. The best place to get instructions on how to operate a piece of equipment is from the person who made it.]
Homosexuality has been recorded in other animals not just human. [God gave men dominion over the Earth. That is to rule it and everything therein. Not all men are honest and mean well, so they use their authority to destroy and alter what God has done, i.e. genetic cloning.] .


32A} We are not forcing our Faith on you, YOU are forcing your ways on us! We are not the one