Thanks CG, at least we agree on some points, there is some common ground!

I notice you mention how the Old Testament is full of condemnation for those who are not of the faith. This is very true and I think much of the Old Testament puzzle many Christians, even pastors. Personally, I always used to wonder why there was so much violence in the O.T. And why would God allow some of those wicked nations to beat up on the Children of Israel. I think most people don't understand the reasons for some of these events.

Once while studying the Book of Isaiah, my Bible notes gave an explanation of why God allowed a very wicked nation to conquer the Israelites. It says that God was punishing them for their stubbornness and disobedience. And (get this!) that He would also punish the wicked nation for beating up the Israelites! To me this is strange and I don't really see the logic in it!

Then another thing that puzzled me was when God had Moses to petition Pharaoh to let the Israelites leave Egypt. On a number of occasions God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would resist letting the Israelites go. This also sounds strange to me -- God wants them to go and He's stopping them from going (?).

Even Moses had difficulty understanding God's ways. At one point he prayed, "Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is your people." (Exodus 33:13). For the most part Christians would have to satisfy their curiosity by this passage: "...My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are highrer than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than Your thoughts". (Isaiah 55: 8-9).

Speaking about different interpretations and hard and fast rules, some churches are stricter than others. My church is very strict. There were some people attending on a regular basis for 6 or 7 years and yet were not members. To become a member, you must accept Christ as your saviour, study a Bible course once per week for about 8 weeks, be baptized (NO sprinkling), then apply to be a member. Some churches perhaps would not take this long.

Speaking about the apostles and those who wrote the gospels of Christ, I believed they were inspired (you say after the fact -- I agree). Towards the end of the book of John there are indications that they had not even accepted Christ as the Messiah. But on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given, that was when they really accepted Christ and became inspired. They were endued with power! I don't understand how you could say it is unprovable that they were inspired, unless you don't believe in all the miracles they performed. And how they boldly stood up to the authorities who tried to stop them from preaching in the name of Christ!

I don't get that bit at all about "My words are inspired being a catch 22". That is why I would question and try to prove all things, not just let any Tom, Dick or Harry tell me that their words are inspired! When you get deep into God's Word your spirit (your inner man) will sense whether someone is speaking under the power or inspiration of the Holy spirit! You will sense the power and authority of their words! [3 times God commanded Joshua to be strong and courageous and meditate on His word day and night and he would have good sucess!].

There are some other things I have to research. Seems that we attach much more importance to prophecy than your faith. I guess that is because the Bible teaches that when the gospel is preached to all the world and all the prophecies have been fulfilled, Christ's second coming will take place!

I don't see why Christians should be in fear of offending God in going by their experience and being objective, etc.
Personally I have had some good and some very bad experience and I have learned from them all. Christ Himself used to mix with sinners (ie people of the "world")
and prostitutes. Some of the wisest and most powerful lessons I have learned was some years ago when I used to sit in a little bar and have a few drinks with some friends! And the 2 most important lessons were from a woman regarded as a prostitute and a man they claimed could not read or write! These lessons have become a part of me.

You talk about the burden my faith places on us. Take St Paul, the greatest Christian who ever lived (except for Christ). Look at the beatngs, jailings, and all kinds of hardships he went through for the Gospel -- and he did it with Joy; he called it a little inconvenience! So when they think of the life they would have with God eternally, Christians would or should not worry about a few burdens!

You mention about Christians being told that Jesus started all those great qualities (love, compassion brotherhood, etc). Well, as the Bible teaches He was there since the beginning and He created everything, so it only seems logical that he really started those great Christian principles! Also, I read about those "lost years" Christ spent in India (or wherever). This may be true. But there is something else I read concerning His death and burial that is kind of mind boggling, and if it is in fact the truth and becomes known, the Christian church could be in trouble! [don't want to talk about this -- can't bring myself to believe it!].

Here is something I am researching. I have a tape by a famous Christian pastor who passed away last year. He spoke about Martin Luther and the Reformation. Then he talked about the useful inventions Germany invented that blessed humanity. But he is implying that no useful inventions could come out of a country which does not have Christ, and that Germany became successful in that regard only after the gospel was preached there. Do you have any ideas on this? I plan to research this to see if there is any truth in the idea that a country whose God is not the Lord can't create any useful inventions. I find this difficult to believe!

Great Demos

Originally Posted by Great Demos
Another thing, the Bible is full of prophecy. Prophecy is like an underpinning to affirm ther truth of the word, as these prophecies are being fulfilled all the time. I heard a number of pastors say that NO other religion has any prophecy -- Does Buddhism has prophecy? If not, what kind of foundation or underpinnings they have to affirm their word, their teachings?


Hi Great Demos please point out in the Bible a prophecy. Not something vague. Like there will be war. There is always war somewhere in the world. Give pinpoint time and place of something in the Bible.


Ok Vicky, I will give you just a few sections of the Bible where there are prophecies, ones that are fairly straightforward. You can look them up.

Deut 18:15 -19 is one of the many prophecies of the coming of Christ.

Isa 13:19 - 22 prophecies the destruction of Babylon, and it states that it will never be rebuilt. Remember all that money Saddam spent trying to rebuild it!? Well, according to God's word, it will never be rebuilt!

Mic 5:2 prophecies the birthplace of Jesus.

Mal 3:1 prophecies the birth of John the Baptist.

Isa 52:13 - 53:12 prophecies the career and ministry of Jesus.

Ps 22: 1-18 prophecies the crucifixion of Jesus. And I could go on and on and on. Hope this helps.

Great Demos

I notice you mention how the Old Testament is full of condemnation for those who are not of the faith. This is very true and I think much of the Old Testament puzzle many Christians, even pastors. Personally, I always used to wonder why there was so much violence in the O.T. And why would God allow some of those wicked nations to beat up on the Children of Israel. I think most people don't understand the reasons for some of these events.

Once while studying the Book of Isaiah, my Bible notes gave an explanation of why God allowed a very wicked nation to conquer the Israelites. It says that God was punishing them for their stubbornness and disobedience. And (get this!) that He would also punish the wicked nation for beating up the Israelites! To me this is strange and I don't really see the logic in it!

Don't look for logic when you are moiling, or churning up, deep spiritual waters. Logic and the spirit don't always go together.

I don't see why Christians should be in fear of offending God in going by their experience and being objective, etc.
Personally I have had some good and some very bad experience and I have learned from them all. Christ Himself used to mix with sinners (ie people of the "world")
and prostitutes. Some of the wisest and most powerful lessons I have learned was some years ago when I used to sit in a little bar and have a few drinks with some friends! And the 2 most important lessons were from a woman regarded as a prostitute and a man they claimed could not read or write! These lessons have become a part of me.

You are unusual (I mean that in a good way, and there are many of you, but not enough!) When I said give up your experiences etc. I mean even your experience of God. That is what a Christian finds hard to do. I can see that!

You mention about Christians being told that Jesus started all those great qualities (love, compassion brotherhood, etc). Well, as the Bible teaches He was there since the beginning and He created everything, so it only seems logical that he really started those great Christian principles!

If he did create them, what took him so long to bring them to earth? Mankind has been around, in the form like us, for 50,000 years plus. Christ came only two thousand years ago. The Buddha 2,500 years ago. That still leaves a long time to be without those qualities. The truth is love has always been with us. It is just that from time to time we need a God-like figure to remind us. The history of religion is full of them!

Also, I read about those "lost years" Christ spent in India (or wherever). This may be true. But there is something else I read concerning His death and burial that is kind of mind boggling, and if it is in fact the truth and becomes known, the Christian church could be in trouble! [don't want to talk about this -- can't bring myself to believe it!].

I think I know what you are talking about. But why can't you think about it? Are you fearful it may be right? If it was right, would it be that bad to know the truth? The Christian says he seeks the truth.

Here is something I am researching. I have a tape by a famous Christian pastor who passed away last year. He spoke about Martin Luther and the Reformation. Then he talked about the useful inventions Germany invented that blessed humanity. But he is implying that no useful inventions could come out of a country which does not have Christ, and that Germany became successful in that regard only after the gospel was preached there. Do you have any ideas on this? I plan to research this to see if there is any truth in the idea that a country whose God is not the Lord can't create any useful inventions. I find this difficult to believe!

So you should! First of all, I would say that there is something that came out of Christian Germany that was far from useful - the Nazi Party! (For those who may be to young to remember - think of World War II.)

The Chinese, not Christian but Taoist (pronounced Dow-ist) Invented printable type YEARS before Gutenberg. They invented paper. They were using toilet paper when the Christian was.....well I leave that to your imagination. They invented Gun powder. Every time you use a wheel barrow, thank the Chinese.

Who invented the wheel? No one knows but the Egyptians were using them long before the Hebrews. Speaking of the Egyptians, they had a grasp of mathematics that took us years to use and understand. It was the Egyptian King Ikhnaton who is crediting with coming up with the idea of the worship of a single God.

The Arabs (pre-Islam) invented the Lateen Sail that allowed boats to sail almost into the wind. They sailed all over the place, with the aid of the Compass.

Our understanding of Civil Law comes from Roman and Greece, rescued by the Arabs - the Christians wanted the books burned. Pagan Greece "invented" democracy. Pagan Rome invented running water, hot and cold, in houses. They also had central heating!

If you want to go deep enough into history there are nameless persons (not Christians) who harnessed: Fire, the horse, agriculture, wine making, :friday: an understanding of the working of the universe. There was a chap, whose name escapes me, that figured out the circumference of the world - and he was only a few miles out. In fact it was the Christian faith that held to the Pagan belief that the world was flat - few others believed it. I am only touching the surface of what non-Christian found or invented that was useful.

On the other hand, the Church opposed many inventions and discoveries (by Christians) because they went against the Bible; the sun-centered universe, the vacuum (not the cleaner, but emptiness) Many kinds of medical procedures that have saved lives- heart transplants come to mind as well as stem-cell research.(which is going on as we speak!)

To be quite frank, the peoples of the world would invent and find things with or without your religion or mine. Is it even possible they invented religion too???? There is a strong body of opinion that would say, "without a doubt!"
(Lets hope that is wrong!!)

Thanks CG for all of this info. Will use it as I try to dig up a bit more.

I guess many of us (I mean people in general) are too narrow minded. It's sad that even Christians are that way, but I am not too surprised. I recall a certain place where I used to work, they used to call me the Ideas Man and used to like my ideas and suggestions on things they were planning for the company, important things like the kinds of businesses they should go into, etc.

Many times I wouldn't even attend the meetings because they would take my ideas and do nothing with them.

One time they really needed some ideas and suggestions to help push the business forward, decided to spend a day or two at one of the hotels in brainstorming sessions. I was not invited, and many of those invited were not people with ideas. Some of them came to me for ideas to take to the meetings and I freely gave them. Some of my friends said I shouldn't have given them anything, but I felt that if I could help in some way, fine, whether some of the benefits (if any accrue in the long run) trickle down to me or not.

Seems that at times people could be very strange: If you use a little of your God-given talent (or if they even know you have a talent), they become jealous or act stange toward you.

Will take a rest for now and discuss some of these "deep" thoughts perhaps in a few days time.

Great Demos

..I guess many of us (I mean people in general) are too narrow minded...

I think a big part of the problem is that some people think religion is a "competitive sport." It is regrettable that the "Big Three," Christianity, Judaism and Islam lead the field in this unfortunate perception. However, they are not alone.

Religion is a matter of the soul and the heart. If one wishes to continue the sports analogy, it is a "one-on-one." It is between the believer and God (However a person perceives God to be.) After all, I doubt there are two people of the same faith that thinks of God in exactly the same way.

We must leave room in our hearts for love of people of other beliefs and views. Because if love is not there the only thing to fill the void is hate.

Ok Vicky, I will give you just a few sections of the Bible where there are prophecies, ones that are fairly straightforward. You can look them up.

Deut 18:15 -19 is one of the many prophecies of the coming of Christ.

Isa 13:19 - 22 prophecies the destruction of Babylon, and it states that it will never be rebuilt. Remember all that money Saddam spent trying to rebuild it!? Well, according to God's word, it will never be rebuilt!

Mic 5:2 prophecies the birthplace of Jesus.

Mal 3:1 prophecies the birth of John the Baptist.

Isa 52:13 - 53:12 prophecies the career and ministry of Jesus.

Ps 22: 1-18 prophecies the crucifixion of Jesus. And I could go on and on and on. Hope this helps.

Great Demos


Deuteronomy 18
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Isaiah 13
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Micah 5
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Malachi 4
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Isaiah 52
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Isaiah 52
12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rearward.

I can make a Prophecy just as vague as the ones you mentioned. Jesus name is not mentioned nor is a cross.

There will be a time of bad weather and there will be destruction. Many will cry in the name of the Creator.
Or when you go fishing you will catch more fish than you will ever catch.
Now if I say the GreatDemos will go fishing this May and he will catch many fish. and it happened it would be a Prophecy.

For it to be a prophecy it must have names dates places and happenings

Deuteronomy 18
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Isaiah 13
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Micah 5
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Malachi 4
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Psalm 22
1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Isaiah 52
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

Isaiah 52
12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rearward.

I can make a Prophecy just as vague as the ones you mentioned. Jesus name is not mentioned nor is a cross.

There will be a time of bad weather and there will be destruction. Many will cry in the name of the Creator.
Or when you go fishing you will catch more fish than you will ever catch.
Now if I say the GreatDemos will go fishing this May and he will catch many fish. and it happened it would be a Prophecy.

For it to be a prophecy it must have names dates places and happenings

Vicky, if you were to do a little study of prophecy from the standpoint of the Bible, you will see that your idea of prophecy is not correct. There are prophecies that can apply to this moment and the very same prophecy apply to many years in the future!

"....... No prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation [Or origin], for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. (2 Peter 1: 20-21).

You say a prophecy must have names, dates, places and happenings. Please show me one of these! If there are none in the Bible, I don't think God Himself would give anyone such a prophecy, if none is in His word, as He honours His word above His Name! (Psalm 138:2).

Yes, you may hear some so-called psychic or soothsayer give names dates, etc, but THEIR GUESS would be no better than yours or mine! But wait! In the case of these false prophets, sometimes satan or his demons would give them the correct dates, etc, just to encourage them in their demonic, satanic practices!

Hope this helps.

Great Demos