Mikki...

I applaud you for your strong stance on the topic and I appreciate your thorough points in this forum. They seem well supported and founded. Please continue to submit your opinions in these forums, as we all can benefit from them.

:tup:

i dont want yall to stop. yall almost to 500 post.

i dont want yall to stop. yall almost to 500 post.


OK then...let me see if I can oblige you.

Let me try to tackle these issues one at a time.

I fail to see how I've made a generalization without merit. This discussion speaks in general terms. How is my generalization invalid and I will withdraw it.


OK, let me go back to the previous post and explain myself.


Calling me a homophob suggests that you are homosexual. When I said that earlier you almost bit my head off. You don't regard this as misrepresentative of the truth?? I already told you how I felt about the GLBT community. I know that they are no different than heterosexuals. I've already stated that I believe that both groups arrive at their sexuality the same. You however insist that you are special. You are demanding that you are different that you stand out. Typical of the GLBT. Always wanting attention or for others to treat them specially. But you aren't special. Don't lie to yourself. Its cruel. Embrace the truth. You are GLBT the same way you are english speaking, meat eating, or whatever. You learned it. Like I learned heterosexuality. You are no different than me. Expect, I won't lie to you like you are willing to lie to yourself.


I am referring to this comment you made and this generalization you made about the GLBT community always wanting attention. I don't know what experiences you have had in the past, but I can say that of the vast majority of the GLBT community I have interacted with the last thing they want is to stand out. The one thing that most of them have in common is to just be treated normally, and not to be treated "special". If it has been your experience in the past with GLBT persons that they want to be treated like they are special, then please state specifically that and not generalize and assume that all, most, or even the majority of the community feel or think this way. I just want to be clear that readers understand you are saying this from your personal experience and is not true for the entire community.

Once again you miss the point. I enjoy reading your posts very much-you make very good and well reasoned points. However, you can perhaps use less camparative means of getting your point across...if you are capable of doing so. All in all, it would save you lots of time writing (and us lots of time reading)...much of what you say is valid, (and for that reason i will continue to read) but it takes you sentences upon sentences to express your point. Try to be more concise please - if thats not too big a challenge.

Now can you (*briefly*) outline the distinction between homosexuality and amorphism? Unless I have skipped the explanation as i scanned your response, you failed (again) in answering a specific question -in your quest to illustrate how well read you are.

PS: leave out the illustration too this time please, I have a creative mind and can do that for myself.


Hmmm. I don't take kindly to condescension. I doubt that you do either.

But as far as I know I've answered your question.

Amorphism is the tendency of ambiguity in regard to gender identity. Oh, and amorphism is genetic in men. Which is what led people to believe that homosexuality is genetic when in actuality it was feminism that was genetic.

I assumed you already knew the definition of homosexuality. So I posted the definition of amorphism. I posted illustration because I'm sure you weren't the only person reading what I posted. So for others who aren't as advanced as you are, I posted illustrations to....illustrate my point.

I am referring to this comment you made and this generalization you made about the GLBT community always wanting attention. I don't know what experiences you have had in the past, but I can say that of the vast majority of the GLBT community I have interacted with the last thing they want is to stand out. The one thing that most of them have in common is to just be treated normally, and not to be treated "special". If it has been your experience in the past with GLBT persons that they want to be treated like they are special, then please state specifically that and not generalize and assume that all, most, or even the majority of the community feel or think this way. I just want to be clear that readers understand you are saying this from your personal experience and is not true for the entire community.


Well, I was speaking specifically about the argument that homosexuality in particular is genetic. That would place homosexuality in a special classification of behaviorism. Heterosexuality has never been argued to be genetic. There are no studies suggesting such a ridiculous assertion. There have been hundreds of studies that says homosexuality is not genetic. Wouldn't it make sense that if homosexuality were genetic, then heterosexuality is also genetic?? But its not...so how is homosexuality different?? It isn't. People argue that it is...to me, that is a cry for attention. And most of the homosexuals that I know or have known had a real desire to be noticed.

Well, I was speaking specifically about the argument that homosexuality in particular is genetic. That would place homosexuality in a special classification of behaviorism. Heterosexuality has never been argued to be genetic. There are no studies suggesting such a ridiculous assertion. There have been hundreds of studies that says homosexuality is not genetic. Wouldn't it make sense that if homosexuality were genetic, then heterosexuality is also genetic??

This has nothing to do with what I stated at all so I won't even bother with this part.


But its not...so how is homosexuality different?? It isn't. People argue that it is...to me, that is a cry for attention. And most of the homosexuals that I know or have known had a real desire to be noticed.

Took you long enough to say it. Thank you...that is all I was trying to get you to say. Further, I was trying to explain to you that the ones you have encountered may not be representative. I have spoken to an extremely large number of persons in the GLBT community. In my experience, the ones that "have a desire to be noticed" are in the minority. They just tend to be noticed more often.

This has nothing to do with what I stated at all so I won't even bother with this part.


Took you long enough to say it. Thank you...that is all I was trying to get you to say. Further, I was trying to explain to you that the ones you have encountered may not be representative. I have spoken to an extremely large number of persons in the GLBT community. In my experience, the ones that "have a desire to be noticed" are in the minority. They just tend to be noticed more often.

Just as you have heterosexuals that want to be noticed.
Don't worry Mikki I going to get to you right now.

1. Ok. So an american can't know more about Bahamian history than a Bahamian?? A car driver automatically knows more about driving cars than a non-car driver?? I don't think so. Homosexuality is a behaviorism. Behaviorists know more about homosexuality than homosexuals. Botanists know more about trees than trees do. And my opinions don't come from higher learning, I studied accounting. My opinions come from my own interest in philosophy, biology, religion, or whatever. Truth is not made void by fact. Truth defines fact. A blind man is no different than anyone else. The red you see, is not the same red that I see. I'd love for your to prove that it is.

Does a driver know more about driving than a non-driver probably not. Does a driver know more about the experience of driving, the mentality of a driver, or the pressure a driver faces; yes, the driver most certainly will. Without experience, the non-driver will only know the rules or principles. Homosexuality is not a behaviorism, but behaviorists try to explain homosexuality using behaviorism theories. So while a behaviorist may try to explain what a homosexual person should or may be thinking or feeling, THEY DO NOT. They only have theories. So while it is good that you are well educated on the subject, and I sincerely applaud that considering how myopic many Bahamians are on the topic, you will never know more about homosexuality than an intelligent homosexual.


3. I find men attractive. I wouldn't act on that attraction. Just like you can take a pile of cow feces and make it look like the best meal ever, it looks appealing but I would never eat it. But if I were in prison there's a strong chance I might act on homosexual desires. Just like if I were starving to death I might eat cow dung. Sexuality is a spectrum. We all have desires along that spectrum. Most have strong desires towards either extreme, bi-sexuals are usually in the middle of that line. If all men died tomorrow, the last living homosexual would become heterosexual. Just like if I, a heterosexual man, went to prison for the rest of my life, I would likely become homosexual.

Again, I sincerely applaud your honesty, since most hetero guys would never admit that they are able to state if another male is attractive. The last part of your statement, however, is nonsense. If the last remaining homosexual (according to the spectrum theory you mentioned earlier and I totally agree with) was as far as possible on that scale (as homosexual as possible) then I doubt he would "convert" just because he is horny. I have spoken to gay guys that are so revolted by the female form that they have thrown up upon seeing a vagina. I think they would sooner kill themselves than become hetero or even bi. If you became homosexual while in prison for the rest of your life, that simply means you are nearer to the homosexual (or bi) side of the spectrum than you realize. You already stated that you can find a man attractive, but you simply just don't wish to act on it. All this means is that if you are horny enough (or maybe even drunk enough) you would probably release these inhibitions an act on that attraction.


6. Actually no, I post less than you do. I try to post everything I have to say in one post, with complete sentences and messages.

He has you there Vicky...but personally I think it would be better Mikki if you broke things up as opposed to replying to three persons and three separate conversations all in one post.

1. Yes, this is an online forum. Does that make the issue any less serious?? If so then we can end the discussion here and quit wasting time. If we are to get an understanding of what each other is saying then we have to learn where each person is coming from and why they are saying what they are saying. Simple. You may shy away from this, but I do not. You don't have to read my posts or respond. If you feel I'm wasting your time, then I would suggest you do yourself a big favour and ignore me.

2. I have an accounting & philosophy background. I like to debate. In order to debate I like to be informed. Amorphism is the tendency of ambiguity in regard to gender identity -- I guess would be the best way to say it -- we call the women that display amorphism "Tom Boys", but we don't begin to assume that they are homosexual now do we?? Just think how many Tom Boys you've grown up with. Very few were ever considered homosexual. But on the flip side, every little boy with feminine qualities we referred to as a sissy or homosexual. But that is not the case. Amorphism has nothing to do with sexual preference. A lot of homosexual men may display amorphism -- which is why most of the research done on homosexuality is a joke. Masculine homosexuals were never studied. Homosexual women were never studied. Really http://www.lesbianresearch.com/a/
http://www.womenz.org.nz/tmln/survey.htm
There is also a book out http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:Lesbianism:3002883908:isbn=0398031169?used=1
Please research before you type.
Could you be saying that asking a person about them selves and recording info of many people is not a study.
just as we misjudge, researchers misjudged. They assumed feminine men equaled homosexual and masculine women equaled Tom Boy. Oh, and amorphism is genetic in men. Which is what led people to believe that homosexuality is genetic when in actuality it was feminism that was genetic.



I fail to see how I've made a generalization without merit. This discussion speaks in general terms. How is my generalization invalid and I will withdraw it.



1. Ok. So an american can't know more about Bahamian history than a Bahamian?? A car driver automatically knows more about driving cars than a non-car driver?? I don't think so. Homosexuality is a behaviorism. Behaviorists know more about homosexuality than homosexuals. Botanists know more about trees than trees do. And my opinions don't come from higher learning, I studied accounting. My opinions come from my own interest in philosophy, biology, religion, or whatever. Truth is not made void by fact. Truth defines fact. A blind man is no different than anyone else. The red you see, is not the same red that I see. I'd love for your to prove that it is.



2. So genes and chromosomes aren't genetic?? I know they aren't spelled the same...but...hmmmm...genes as I recall are quite genetic. And since chromosome contain genes, I'm willing to guess that they are genetic too. But you're the expert.
Ok let me say it like this to help you understand.
Genes are a part of chromosomes. Genes are not the only thing that is in the womb. Chromosomes are not made up of just genes. The fetus does not develope just because of genes. There is much more to it.


3. I find men attractive. Really. I don't. I can look at a male and say he could make a pretty girl but thats about it. I wouldn't act on that attraction. Just like you can take a pile of cow feces and make it look like the best meal ever, it looks appealing but I would never eat it. But if I were in prison there's a strong chance I might act on homosexual desires. Just like if I were starving to death I might eat cow dung. Sexuality is a spectrum. We all have desires along that spectrum. Most have strong desires towards either extreme, bi-sexuals are usually in the middle of that line. If all men died tomorrow, the last living homosexual would become heterosexual. Just like if I, a heterosexual man, went to prison for the rest of my life, I would likely become homosexual.



4. I would disagree with that. But then that would change the dynamic of the discussion. Christianity comes from Platonism, Pythagorianism and Literalism. Very little of the teachings of Jesus are in fact the teachings of Jesus let alone the basis of christianity.
Lets not forget the links to Paganism and Buddhism


5. Are you equating me to the white man?? Have I harmed you?? Oppressed you?? Discriminated against you?? What have I done to you except exposed what you have done to yourself.
The reference had nothing to do with race what so ever. It was to do with what you see and what I see. You can never understand life as I see it Just as I can never understand it as you see it.


6. Actually no, I post less than you do. I try to post everything I have to say in one post, with complete sentences and messages. I don't try to post 3-4 consecutive posts. Noticed I tried to address everyone in this one post. You should be careful how you point fingers. What ever you say I was not the only one to say this. I learned heterosexuality the same place you did. From society. Same place you learned Bahamian culture from. Did you go to a Bahamian culture class to become a certified Bahamian?? No, you learned from interacting with people. That's the same way you learn sexuality. That's the same way you learn what your favorite color is. Your favorite food. Even the way you learn english. From interacting socially.
Really! So you are saying society (Bahamian) teaches and promotes homosexuality?!


7. I'm not saying that it does. I'm saying that the studies done suggesting that homosexuality is not a product of socialization are making this claim.

Sexuality is a spectrum. We all have desires along that spectrum. Most have strong desires towards either extreme, bi-sexuals are usually in the middle of that line. If all men died tomorrow, the last living homosexual would become heterosexual. Just like if I, a heterosexual man, went to prison for the rest of my life, I would likely become homosexual.


even though its scary to think about. i must say you do have a good point, i hope more see it that way.


BTW- WE ALMOST THERE 491

im holding out till 499 THEN i will post! :cutie:

Bahmaboy:

I'm trying to contribute as best I can. This should be 492.

Vicky:

1. Asking a person questions is not an objective study. If I go into proving why, all I'll hear is "Don't try to act smarter than us". You just said yourself "truth is not fact". I'm not saying I disagree either way. I'm saying that you are contradicting yourself here.

2. Wow. Genes aren't the only thing in the womb?? Surprise surprise. There's probably a baby in there too. Listen *YOU* said genes and chromosomes. I am simply responding to what *YOU* said. And *YOU* are still confused, even about what you said.

3. You don't find men attractive. I can only take you at your word. There was a time when I swore that finding men attractive was disgusting. But I'm secure in my sexuality. People that can't admit that they can be attracted to both genders are in denial. Simple as that. Argue if you wish but I won't respond further. Not on this point. I think its ridiculous to say you're a man and you can't be attracted to men when you've never met every man alive. The same if your any gender or sexual preference.

4. Platonism and Pythagorianism are pagan. The similarities to Buddhism are merely cosmetic. To make the comparison is to say that Mayan and Incan myths have influenced christianity when they aren't on the same continent even thought they have some of the same myths.

5. The reference has everything to do with race. You wanted to play the victim. So you drew the comparison of an oppressed people versus an oppressive people, which I found insulting. If you wanted to say that we were different there are hundreds of comparisons you could've drawn. Man vs woman. Jews vs muslim. Vegan vs carnivore. Prostestant vs catholic.

6. I know you weren't the only one that said I post a lot. But you should be the last one to say that I post a lot.

7. You are trying to be inflammatory. Did I say the bahamas teaches and promotes heterosexuality??

Finekameo:

1. Can you give me a definition of "homosexuality" without it being defined as a 'behavior'. If you call it an experience -- it is a behavior. You can slice it anyway you wish. Behavior is what you'll arrive at. But I'm assuming you know better than I do. So would you kindly enlighten me??

2. How is it nonsense that homosexual men can't be honest?? You yourself that homosexuals have tried to fit into society. I've known many that have had girlfriends, some even have kids, but swear that they've been homosexual all their lives. There are many that go to prison and find their sexuality there. Some go to the military and find themselves there. This is not farfetched or nonsensical. It is perfectly logical because you'd be hardpressed to find a heterosexual man willing to admit that he finds guys attractive -- so its not surprising that you'd find a homosexual man willing to admit that he'd find a woman attractive. But I wonder why you accept the former and not the latter.

There are many that go to prison and find their sexuality there. Some go to the military and find themselves there.

for the heck of it Mikki, cause i think you answered this already (just trying to get to the BIG 5-0-0.... could it not be that those who join the military or end up in prison are changed because of their surroundings? as opposed to 'finding themselves'?

Also, I have another question: actually, i want to start a new discussion (perhaps needs a new thread, but keep in mind the big 5-0-0 :bye: ):...

What do you guys think about handing out condoms in prison? hell no or hell YES???

:confused:

No. It couldn't be that their surroundings changed.